Bench Sumo news

[Pandaazuma 1,301]

I just emailed him and he got back to me immediately with his acceptance speech as follows:

"I fluked it!"

[Asashosakari 18,157]

Praised be the man who knows his limitations but makes the most of them. 

[Jejima 1,208]

Hi everyone,

 

Here is the new Bench Sumo banzuke for May 2018.  It was crafted by Kaiomitsuki, Flohru and Jejima, watched over by Ekigozan, Asashosakari and Kintamayama.

 

Do not be fooled by the spped by which the new banzuke is being published - this time it was not an easy one to make.  Not at all.

 

The sanyaku has been expanded to ten, which is sort of a maximum for Bench Sumo (but who knows what the banzuke committee would have decided *if* Itachi had got an 8th win on senshuraku and/or Norizo had got his 9th win on the same day!).  We aim to keep it at eight, whenever possible.  This means there will likely be

some harsh demotions after the May basho.

 

Speaking of harsh demotions, there are several this time around.  Let's all take a moment to sympathise with Hokuyutaka and Holleshoryu, among others.

 

There is some good luck for some players, so keep your fingers crossed.

 

Here it is!

 

Jejima (BS rijicho)

 

ScreechingOwl (O1W, 8-7)  O1  Rubensan (O1E, 6-9)
Itachiyama (O2W, KOSHO)   O2  Chocshoporyu (S1W, 11-4) 
Damimonay (S1E, 9-6)      S1  Saruyama (M3W, 12-3) 

Jakusotsu (O2E, 4-11)     S2
Yassier (K1E, 8-7)        K1  Achiyama (K1W, 8-7)
                                    K2  Gurowake (M2E, 10-5)

Norizo (M1W, 8-7)         M1  tainosen (M3E, 8-7)

Leonishiki (M5W, 9-6)      2  Gaijingai (M2W, KOSHO) 

Itachi (M1E, 7-8)          3  Oshirokita (M6W, 8-7)
pandaazuma (M7W, 8-7)      4  Furanohana (M10E, 9-6)

Pitinosato (M14E, 10-5)    5  Flohru (M13E, 9-6)  

Gawasukotto (M11E, 8-7)    6  Bill (M15W, 10-5)

Getayukata (M11W, 8-7)     7  Haidouzo (M16W, 10-5)
Kintamayama (M14W, 9-6)    8  Chijanofuji (M17E, 10-5) 
Metzinowaka (M6E, 6-9)     9  Taka (M4E, 5-10)
Ruziklao (M7E, 6-9)       10  toonoryu (M9W, 7-8)

Susanoo (M8E, 6-9)        11  Roundeye (M10W, 7-8)
Konosato (M4W, 4-11)      12  Tsunamiko (M12W, KOSHO)
Terarno (J1E, 10-5)       13  tokugawa (M9E, 6-9)   
Sherlockiama (M15E, 8-7)  14  kamogawa (J2W, 10-5)  

Yamashade (M8W, 5-10)     15  Kitahotaru (J5W, 11-4)  

mischashimaru (M17W, 8-7) 16  Mariohana (J1W, 8-7) 

 

Hokuyutaka (M5E, 3-12)    J1  Holleshoryu (M13W, 7-8) 
Frinkanohana (M12E, 5-10)  2  Hironoumi (J8E, 10-5) 
GONZABUROW (M16E, 6-9)     3  Ihopeso (J2E, 7-8)
Andoreasu (J3E, 7-8)       4  Watashi (J3W, 7-8)

fujiyama (J12E, 11-4)      5  Mmikasazuma (J10W, 10-5)

Fujisan (J9E, 9-6)         6  shimodahito (J11W, 8-7)
Boltbutthamma (J4E, 6-9)   7  Kasamatsuri (J12W, 8-7)

Sebunshu (J7W, 7-8)        8  Kaiowaka (ms2E, 10-5)   
Jejima (J8W, 7-8)          9  andonishiki (J6W, 6-9) 

Unkonoyama (J4W, 5-10)    10  Anjoboshi (J5E, 5-10) 

Senkoho (J11E, KOSHO)     11  Kaiomitsuki (J9W, 7-8) 

Basoyama (J13W, 8-7)      12  chishafuwaku (ms4W, 10-5) 

kuroimori (J6E, 4-11)     13  Homuburyuwa (ms10E, 12-3)

iwakoko (J14E, KOSHO)     14  Tenshinhan (ms3W, 9-6) 

 

Kitakachiyama (ms4E, 9-6) ms1  Sakura (ms2W, 8-7)  
Marushiki (J13E, 7-8)       2  Kotononami (ms3E, 8-7)  
Chisaiyama (J10E, 5-10)     3  Wamahada (J14W, 7-8)

Hana-ichi (J7E, 3-12)       4  McBugger (ms9W, 10-5)

Maeden (ms1E, 6-9)          5  Kyodaitimu (ms1W, 6-9)

Rikishimiezi (ms11E, 10-5)  6  Takanorappa (ms7W, 8-7)

Heiyu (ms8W, 8-7)           7  Hibarifuji (ms5E, 6-9)

Kitanoyama (ms8E, KOSHO)    8  Kofujinokami (ms5W, 6-9)
Rowitoro (ms6E, 6-9)        9  Nekonishiki (ms14E, 8-7)

Suwihuto (ms15W, 8-7)      10  Akokoneko (ms10W, KOSHO)

aoyume (ms16E, 8-7)        11  Mukanibaru (ms6W, 5-10)  

Fujiko (ms12E, 7-8)        12  Aminoumi (ms12W, 6-9)

Kintsubasa (ms11W, 5-10)   13  sekihiryu (ms13W, KOSHO)

Unagiyutaka (ms9E, 4-11)   14  Nantonoyama (ms16W, 7-8)

Feginowaka (ms14W, 6-9)    15  VESHANA (ms15E, 5-10)

Banzuke-gai

Bunijiman (ms7E, 0-0-15)

Chimatayama (ms13E, 0-0-15)

Edited March 29, 2018 by Jejima

[Gurowake 3,791]

I thought you demoted Jakusotsu to Komusubi due to the extra line break there. :O

Going to 10 sanyaku really shouldn't be an issue, especially while where we're at 4 Ozeki, which is a little higher than normal in the time I've been playing I'd say.  This basho was even worse as none of the Ozeki did really well and all the lower sanyaku had KKs. 

[Asashosakari 18,157]

Heh, going to juryo two basho after failing an ozeki run by one win.

[Atenzan 1,074]

Homuburyuwa and Ihopeso in the same division... I'll be reading the comments every day. 

[Takanorappa 83]

I hope that you can excuse my tardiness on delivering the ICF results, once you see the updates to my Bench Stats page. Visit takanorappa.com/ichimons.htm , then click on Misc. Bench Stats to enjoy the numbers. 

I’ve overhauled the site to bring a more intuitive menu for stats groupings (hoping the stats will be easier to find). Oh, and everything is updated with the Haru results. 

 I’ve also discovered the joys of CSS’s nth-child, so have updated the looks of the tables with shadings and column delimiters (still trying to crack the fixed header nut, though, for all the tables.  

Lastly, I’ve added a few new stats.  

• Fantastic & Devastating finishes chronicle how many times you either gotten to 7 wins, then blew it, or if you got to 7 losses, then pulled out a KK.
• GBL stats - after pulling in thousands of BS results, I can now give you stats on GBLs!  There are two.  BSer GBL Stats show how often you GBL, and how many of what type (i.e., 10-winner, 9-winner, etc) of GBLs you have earned. GBLs per basho shows how many (&wgat type) were earned each basho.
• Pick Stats - show how many times you have had all winners, no winners, an empty/full bench, or even if you have left winners on the bench (plus more).
• Win/Loss/Active - has gotten an overhaul, and is now sortable. 
• BSer Rank Stats - has , also, gotten overhauled with a new look, is sortable, and adds start/high/low rank

Enjoy!

[Takanorappa 83]

Hey bench old-timers!  I'm looking for a couple of old posts to help complete my stats.  It appears that some lineups from 1999-2000 (whether on the original onelist .com server or yahoogroups) have gone missing.   I need this data to complete the remaining stats for lineup-related data.

Would anyone have the lineups (I already have the results) of:

• Kyushu 1999 Day 4 
• Hatsu 2000 Day 12 

 

 

[Jejima 1,208]

Hi all!

 

With great speed, we bring you the new Bench banzuke for July 2018.  It was put together by Jejima, Kaiomitsuki and Flohru, with Ekigozan, Kintamayama and Asashosakari looking on.

 

This banzuke was mostly quite easy to put together (once the initial shock of ranking Itachiyama as a Sekiwake was out of the system).  I think that there is more bad luck than good luck this time - so apologies in advance to those players suffering from bad banzuke luck.  

 

Enjoy!

 

Jejima (BS rijicho) 

 

East		West
Ozeki
ScreechingOwl 10-5 ([O1E])	1	Chocshoporyu 7-8 ([O2W])
Rubensan KOSHO ([O1W])	2
Sekiwake
Gurowake 10-5 ([K2W])	1	Achiyama 9-6 ([K1W])
	2	Itachiyama 7-8 ([O2E])
Komusubi
Yassier 8-7 ([K1E])	1	tainosen 10-5 ([M1W])
Gaijingai 10-5 ([M2W])	2	Bill 11-4 ([M6W])
Maegashira
Gawasukotto 10-5 ([M6E])	1	Furanohana 9-6 ([M4W])
Jakusotsu 7-8 ([S2E])	2	Itachi 8-7 ([M3E])
Norizo 7-8 ([M1E])	3	Metzinowaka 10-5 ([M9E])
Damimonay 5-10 ([S1E])	4	Saruyama 5-10 ([S1W])
Oshirokita 7-8 ([M3W])	5	pandaazuma 7-8 ([M4E])
Haidouzo 8-7 ([M7W])	6	Flohru 7-8 ([M5W])
Ruziklao 9-6 ([M10E])	7	Leonishiki 5-10 ([M2E])
Roundeye 9-6 ([M11W])	8	Pitinosato 6-9 ([M5E])
Tsunamiko 9-6 ([M12W])	9	Terarno 9-6 ([M13E])
Susanoo 8-7 ([M11E])	10	Yamashade 9-6 ([M15E])
Kintamayama 6-9 ([M8E])	11	toonoryu 7-8 ([M10W])
Konosato KOSHO ([M12E])	12	Kasamatsuri 13-2 ([J7W])
Ihopeso 11-4 ([J3W])	13	Chijanofuji 5-10 ([M8W])
Kitahotaru 8-7 ([M15W])	14	Getayukata 4-11 ([M7E])
mischashimaru 8-7 ([M16E])	15	Holleshoryu 9-6 ([J1W])
tokugawa 7-8 ([M13W])	16	Taka 4-11 ([M9W])
Juryo
Sherlockiama 6-9 ([M14E])	1	Kaiowaka 11-4 ([J8W])
Mariohana 7-8 ([M16W])	2	Hokuyutaka 7-8 ([J1E])
Unkonoyama 11-4 ([J10E])	3	Fujisan 9-6 ([J6E])
Andoreasu KOSHO ([J4E])	4	fujiyama 8-7 ([J5E])
Frinkanohana 7-8 ([J2E])	5	Mmikasazuma KOSHO ([J5W])
Watashi 7-8 ([J4W])	6	Sebunshu 8-7 ([J8E])
andonishiki 8-7 ([J9W])	7	GONZABUROW 5-10 ([J3E])
Kaiomitsuki 8-7 ([J11W])	8	kamogawa 2-13 ([M14W])
Chisaiyama 11-4 ([ms3E])	9	shimodahito 6-9 ([J6W])
Jejima 7-8 ([J9E])	10	Boltbutthamma 6-9 ([J7E])
kuroimori 8-7 ([J13E])	11	Anjoboshi 7-8 ([J10W])
Homuburyuwa 8-7 ([J13W])	12	Kitakachiyama 9-6 ([ms1E])
Hana-ichi 10-5 ([ms4E])	13	chishafuwaku 7-8 ([J12W])
Sakura 8-7 ([ms1W])	14	Tenshinhan KOSHO ([J14W])
Makushita
Hironoumi 2-13 ([J2W])	1	McBugger 9-6 ([ms4W])
Senkoho 6-9 ([J11E])	2	iwakoko 7-8 ([J14E])
Rikishimiezi 9-6 ([ms6E])	3	Rowitoro 10-5 ([ms9E])
Maeden 8-7 ([ms5E])	4	Kyodaitimu 8-7 ([ms5W])
Basoyama 4-11 ([J12E])	5	Takanorappa 8-7 ([ms6W])
Kotononami 6-9 ([ms2W])	6	Aminoumi 10-5 ([ms12W])
Suwihuto 9-6 ([ms10E])	7	Wamahada 6-9 ([M3W])
Marushiki 5-10 ([ms2E])	8	Kofujinokami KOSHO ([ms8W])
Feginowaka 10-5 ([ms15E )	9	Nantonoyama 9-6 ([ms14W])
VESHANA 9-6 ([ms15W])	10	Hibarifuji 6-9 ([ms7W])
Kitanoyama 6-9 ([ms8E])	11	aoyume 7-8 ([ms11E])
Mukanibaru 7-8 ([ms11W])	12	Heiyu 5-10 ([ms7E])
Kintsubasa KOSHO ([ms13E])	13	sekihiryu 7-8 ([ms13W])
Hogashi 7-8 ([ms16W])	14	Bunijiman 6-9 ([ms16E])
Unagiyutaka 5-10 ([ms14E])	15	Nekonishiki 2-13 ([ms9W])
Fujiko 3-12 ([ms12E])	16

Banzuke-gai

Akokoneko 0-0-15 ([ms10W])

[Jejima 1,208]

Hi all,

 

Ozeki ScreechingOwl won a share of the Jun-Yusho this past basho.  On that basis, I asked Marushiki-zeki to convene the Bench Sumo Yokozuna Deliberation Council (BSYDC) to discuss the Ozeki at this moment in his career.

 

This is the response that I have received:

 

Esteemed Rijicho

 

The venerable members of the Bench YDC have met and discussed the performance of The Bird of Fury, ScreechingOwl, and  the possibility of promotion in July. 

 

We were very pleased with his performance in the Natsu Basho and  the prizes that he won.  But feel that it is too early to consider promotion, at this point in time.   

 

The YDC members feel that we need to see how he does in July, and at that point we will reconvene and consider promotion possibilities then. 

 

Until then we offer him our encouragement to continue in the style of sumo he has achieved, and look forward to seeing many good things from ScreechingOwl. 

 

Marushiki

Chair Bench YDC

 

 

I also hope to see good things from ScreechingOwl in July.

 

Jejima (BS rijicho)

[Jakusotsu 5,500]

22 hours ago, Jejima said:

Banzuke-gai

Akokoneko 0-0-15 ([ms10W])

This is the first time since her debut in Natsu 2001 that Akokoneko isn't on the banzuke. 

[Takanorappa 83]

I've been neglecting my GTB entry to bring you a few new stats. As usual, you can find all the stat by going to my website (takanorappa.com/ichimons.htm) and selecting the Misc. Basho Stats (the menu there will get you where you want to go), or you can click the (much more boring) direct links.

- Final Record Counts – This is basho/division stat that details how many of each record (i.e., 8-7, 7-8, 3-12, etc.) was scored. The Divisions are selectable, so you can show any mix you want (one, some or all).
http://takanorappa.com/BenchStats/FinalRecordCounts.htm

- Leader Counts - This one shows how many leaders we had on each day in each division. Like the above stat, the division are selectable. BTW - Did you know that in Sandanme in Nagoya 03 we had just 1 leader on Day 13, but ended in 9-way tie? 
http://takanorappa.com/BenchStats/LeaderCounts.htm

- Playoff Counts - Another aggregate stat. This stat will tell you how many were involved in a playoff at each division (note: it only shows bashos that had playoffs). It also tallies how many playoffs in a basho. SPOILER – we had a 9-way playoff in Nagoya 03
http://takanorappa.com/BenchStats/PlayoffCounts.htm 


- Jun-Yusho Counts - This aggregate stat shows how many runners-up we had in each division on each basho. Note - if you take Gaijingai out of the equation, the jun-yusho counts drop dramatically. BTW - we had three bashos with a 16 total jun-yushos (thru all division), and all were Aki bashos. Weird.
http://takanorappa.com/BenchStats/
 

[Jejima 1,208]

Hi all!

 

Here is the new Bench Banzuke for the September 2018 basho.  It was put together by Jejima, Kaiomitsuki and Flohru, with Kintamayama, Asashosakari and Ekigozan looking over it.

 

We have reduced our sanyaku to the ideal eight that we aim for - giving Flohru and Jakusotsu slightly fortunate promotions to Komusubi in the process.

 

However, there is LOADS of bad banzuke luck for players with an MK, throughout the banzuke.  So, if you were one of the players with an MK in July, do not be optimistic about your new rank - you will almost certainly be ranked (?much?) lower than you were expecting.

 

Well, here it is....

 

Jejima (BS rijicho)

 

ScreechingOwl (O1E, 12-3) O1  Chocshoporyu (O1W, 12-3)
Metzinowaka (M3W, 12-3)   S1  Rubensan (O2E, 5-10)
Gawasukotto (M1E, 9-6)    K1  Flohru (M6W, 10-5)
Jakusotsu (M2E, 8-7)      K2  tainosen (K1W, KOSHO)
 
Yassier (K1E, 7-8)        M1  Bill (K2W, 7-8)         
Norizo (M3E, 8-7)         2  pandaazuma (M5W, 9-6)
Gurowake (S1E, 6-9)     3     Pitinosato (M8W, 10-5)
Achiyama (S1W, 6-9)       4     Terarno (M9W, 10-5) 
Itachiyama (S2W, 6-9)     5   Furanohana (M1W, 7-8)
Itachi (M2W, 7-8)            6  toonoryu (M11W, 10-5)         
Ruziklao (M7E, KOSHO)     7    Yamashade (M10W, 9-6)
Damimonay (M4E, 7-8)    8   Kintamayama (M11E, 9-6)
Saruyama (M4W, 7-8)       9   Oshirokita (M5E, 7-8)
Gaijingai (K2E, 4-11)     10  tokugawa (M16E, 10-5)
Konosato (M12E, 8-7)      11  Susanoo (M10E, 7-8)
Ihopeso (M13E, 8-7)      12   Haidouzo (M6E, 5-10)      
Kitahotaru (M14E, 8-7)    13  Taka (M16W, 9-6)
Tsunamiko (M9E, 6-9) 14 Getayukata (M14W, KOSHO)
Leonishiki (M7W, 5-10) 15 fujiyama (J4W, 11-4) 
mischashimaru (M15E, 7-8) 16  Holleshoryu (M15W, 7-8)
Sherlockiama (J1E, 8-7)   17  Kaiowaka (J1W, 8-7)
 
Roundeye (M8E, 3-12)   J1     Andoreasu (J4E, 9-6)
Mariohana (J2E, KOSHO)    2   Fujisan (J3W, 8-7)
Kaiomitsuki (J8E, 10-5)   3   andonishiki (J7E, 9-6)
Frinkanohana (J5E, 8-7)   4   Mmikasazuma (J5W, 8-7)
Chijanofuji (M13W, 3-12)  5   Hokuyutaka (J2W, 6-9)
Unkonoyama (J3E, 6-9)     6   Homuburyuwa (J12E, 10-5) 
Jejima (J10E, 9-6)        7   GONZABUROW (J7W, KOSHO)
Kasamatsuri (M12W, 2-13)  8   Sebunshu (J6W, 7-8)
Tenshinhan (J14W, 10-5)   9   kuroimori (J11E, 8-7)
chishafuwaku (J13W, 9-6)  10  Kyodaitimu (ms4W, 11-4)     
kamogawa (J8W, 6-9)   11  Anjoboshi (J11W, KOSHO)
Sakura (J14E, 8-7)        12  iwakoko (ms2W, 9-6)
Hana-ichi (J13E, KOSHO)   13   Watashi (J6E, 4-11)    
Basoyama (ms5E, 10-5) 14   Mukanibaru (ms12E, 11-4) 

Maeden (ms4E, 8-7)  ms1 Boltbutthamma(J10W, 5-10) 
Senkoho (ms2E, KOSHO)     2    Takanorappa (ms5W, 8-7)  
Rikishimiezi(ms3E, KOSHO) 3       Chisaiyama (J9E, 4-11) 
shimodahito (J9W, 4-11)     4      McBugger (ms1W, 7-8)  
Kofujinokami (ms8W, 9-6)  5   VESHANA (ms10E, 9-6)
Kotononami (ms6E, KOSHO)  6   Marushiki (ms8E, 8-7)
Suwihuto (ms7E, KOSHO)    7   Wamahada (ms7W, KOSHO)
Rowitoro (ms3W, 7-8)           8      Hironoumi (ms1E, 6-9)
Feginowaka (ms9E, KOSHO)  9   Nantonoyama (ms9W, KOSHO)
Kitakachiyama (J12W, 4-11) 10   Unagiyutaka (ms15E, 9-6)
Kitanoyama (ms11E, KOSHO) 11  Fujiko (ms16E, 8-7)
Hibarifuji (ms10W, 6-9)   12  Heiyu (ms12W, KOSHO)
Aminoumi (ms6W, 4-11)     13  sekihiryu (ms13W, KOSHO)
Kintsubasa (ms13E, 6-9)   14  Bunijiman (ms14W, KOSHO)
Akokoneko (ms16W, 7-8)    15  Nekonishiki(ms15W, KOSHO)
wolfgangho (ms17E, 7-8)   16  aoyume (ms11W, 4-11)
Hogashi (ms14E, 5-10)     17 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Jejima

[Ganzohnesushi 466]

6 hours ago, Jejima said:

However, there is LOADS of bad banzuke luck for players with an MK, throughout the banzuke.  So, if you were one of the players with an MK in July, do not be optimistic about your new rank - you will almost certainly be ranked (?much?) lower than you were expecting.

I hope you are ware that some of this bad Banzuke luck is home-made by the Banzuke committee this time. Whenever you reduce the Sanyaku ranks (e.g. from 10 to 8) players who have taken a Kosho will get some 'undeserved' promotion within the Maegashira ranks!

Both Ruziklao (M7e) and Getayukata (M14w) have taken a kosho for Nagoya Basho and both will keep their Banzuke postion on Aki Banzuke. At the first glance this looks fine, BUT....  If you simply go by numbers Ruziklao was ranked #23 and Getayukata was #38. With the extension of the Banzuke from M16w to M17w both have 'won' two positions as they are now ranked #21 and #36. From my point of view this is not really fair and it is also not necessary. Placing these two at M8e and M15w on Aki Banzuke could have avoided at least a little bit of bad Banzuke luck for the one or the other player, e.g. Damimonay or Leonishiki. 

Moreover, both players finishing 7-8 on M15 were demoted to M16, which means they both simply stay at #39 and #40 in the ranking without moving down even an inch.

Similar cases have happened already a couple of times in the past and so far I never made a remark. But with some extremely bad luck for several MK guys I feel obliged to mention this. As I'm the Banzuke maker for a couple of games I know what I'm talking about. Sometimes Banzuke making is extremely difficult and also hard to decide which ranks are affected by good and bad luck, but the above case with 'promotions' for two kosho Rikishi combined with some heavy MK demotions for others leaves some bad aftertaste.

Ganzohnesushi

[Jakusotsu 5,500]

@Ganzohnesushi You make some good points, but that's not how it was done in Ozumo back when kosho was still a thing. For instance, see Hayateumi here and there.

[Flohru 176]

2 hours ago, Ganzohnesushi said:

I hope you are ware that some of this bad Banzuke luck is home-made by the Banzuke committee this time. Whenever you reduce the Sanyaku ranks (e.g. from 10 to 8) players who have taken a Kosho will get some 'undeserved' promotion within the Maegashira ranks!

Both Ruziklao (M7e) and Getayukata (M14w) have taken a kosho for Nagoya Basho and both will keep their Banzuke postion on Aki Banzuke. At the first glance this looks fine, BUT....  If you simply go by numbers Ruziklao was ranked #23 and Getayukata was #38. With the extension of the Banzuke from M16w to M17w both have 'won' two positions as they are now ranked #21 and #36. From my point of view this is not really fair and it is also not necessary. Placing these two at M8e and M15w on Aki Banzuke could have avoided at least a little bit of bad Banzuke luck for the one or the other player, e.g. Damimonay or Leonishiki. 

Moreover, both players finishing 7-8 on M15 were demoted to M16, which means they both simply stay at #39 and #40 in the ranking without moving down even an inch.

Similar cases have happened already a couple of times in the past and so far I never made a remark. But with some extremely bad luck for several MK guys I feel obliged to mention this. As I'm the Banzuke maker for a couple of games I know what I'm talking about. Sometimes Banzuke making is extremely difficult and also hard to decide which ranks are affected by good and bad luck, but the above case with 'promotions' for two kosho Rikishi combined with some heavy MK demotions for others leaves some bad aftertaste.

Ganzohnesushi

So, if we have to expand sanyaku back to 9 or 10 players next time, would you suggest to promote all kosho players accordingly in order to allow them to keep their relative banzuke position? :)

I think there are two things at stake here:

a) Do we want a kosho system?

We had that discussion a couple of times in the past and always decided to keep it in BS for good reasons. I would also strongly vote against treating a kosho as a 7-8 mk as it could have major implications on Ozeki runs or could lead to division demotions, especially as a 7-8 obviously not always equals a one rank-drop in BS with its dynamic banzuke principle.

b) Do we stick to the general way of Ozumo banzuke making or do we try to invent an own approach that e.g. takes into consideration the relative banzuke position of players?

Personally I like banzuke making to be kept as simple as possible. There are other approaches like Gurowake's math-based Roto Sumo system or the Sumo Tipspiel/Seki Oracle system with intra-division groups, but those are neither necessarily more fair nor less likely to invoke criticism and discussion at times (see the other thread...). Why not simply accept that there is bad banzuke luck as well as there is good banzuke luck and there will be plenty of both for you in the course of a BS career? :) 

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Flohru

[Gurowake 3,791]

There generally is significant bad luck for MK players in Bench because of the desire to give as little bad banzuke luck as possible to those with KKs.  I don't see this banzuke being all that great of an exception once you take into consideration the reduction in sanyaku.  If there was more of an inclination to underpromote players, there wouldn't be as much of a need to grossly overdemote others.  I certainly understand the desire though to keep the banzuke rather fluid, as there is far less of a gap in skill level per rank between players in games other than Oracle than there is in Ozumo rikishi.

 

[Gurowake 3,791]

1 hour ago, Flohru said:

Personally I like banzuke making to be kept as simple as possible. There are other approaches like Gurowake's math-based Roto Sumo system

Personally, I think my system for RotoSumo *is* simple.  At very least, simple in the way I want it to be - almost no guesswork required at all.  There are usually no judgement calls to make.  It fits in with the pattern I have for things where I spend a long time thinking and implementing a system for recurring future work so that said work takes as little time as possible.  I could probably automate more of the process I use, where if I was a sufficient programming wizard I could hit a button, the results would be read from the website, and the banzuke created a few seconds later after application of a bunch of logic.  I'm not exactly inclined to spend time and serious thinking power debugging something like that and so I do large portions of it manually, but it's basically always following a rote pattern, and having the computer do all the arithmetic.  Without a computer my system would be far too complicated, that much is true - but silicon slave labor simplifies the problem immensely.

[Asashosakari 18,157]

As a general comment on kosho, not specifically about how it's used in Bench Sumo: As far as I'm concerned, offering players the opportunity to skip tournaments is generous enough, especially in games where it's done automatically rather than by request. Guaranteeing them the exact same rank has always felt like overkill to me. I'm treating kosho as 7.5 wins without possibility of promotion*, and let the chips fall where they may.

* Like all my general banzuke-making guidelines, I've broken that one under exceptional circumstances, too, of course.

[Ganzohnesushi 466]

6 hours ago, Flohru said:

So, if we have to expand sanyaku back to 9 or 10 players next time, would you suggest to promote all kosho players accordingly in order to allow them to keep their relative banzuke position? :)

Nope, in that case Rikishi should keep their Banzuke rank, i.e. if Sanyaku is expanding by two additional slots from 8 to 10 Rikishi #11 (M2e) becomes #13. Here I'm 100% following Asashosakari's approach.

2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

... offering players the opportunity to skip tournaments is generous enough... Guaranteeing them the exact same rank has always felt like overkill to me. I'm treating kosho as 7.5 wins without possibility of promotion, and let the chips fall where they may.

This is exactly the way I'm handling such cases in Banzuke making for ISP, Odd and SalaryCap. In worst case - and I'm sure I have seen this in Bench Sumo in the past - M17e becomes obsolete after Sanyaku expanding and Rikishi find themselves on J1e.

I'm not sure which "system" grants a maximum of fairness and I can easily live with the current approach by the Bench Sumo Banzuke makers. I just wanted to point out that in the above mentioned case at least some small portion of the proclaimed bad Banzuke luck is caused by unjustified (from my point of view) 'promotions' of players taking a Kosho.

Ganzohnesushi

[Flohru 176]

25 minutes ago, Ganzohnesushi said:

I just wanted to point out that in the above mentioned case at least some small portion of the proclaimed bad Banzuke luck is caused by unjustified (from my point of view) 'promotions' of players taking a Kosho.

Point taken! Let me point out, on the other hand, that you should delete the "at least" in your sentence. 2 out of 42 Makuuchi players were kosho (and that is in July, vacation time), if we were to treat kosho differently, exactly two mk players would gain a full and a half rank respectively. I really cannot see the big problem here and I even doubt the two affected players actually care about that.  

[Jejima 1,208]

I used to (15 years ago?) advertise Bench Sumo as 'being as close to the real thing without having to don a mawashi.'  Bench Sumo tries to mimic Ozumo as much as is possible.  When Bench Sumo was first set up, there used to be only 40 rikishi in Makunouchi (and 26 in Juryo), following the lead of Ozumo.  Ozumo also at that time had the 'Kosho' rule.  When Ozumo did away with the Kosho rule - and expanded Makunouchi and Juryo as 'compensation', we followed suit with expanding the two divisions, but did not remove our kosho rule, as real people with real jobs and families playing the game might have to skip a basho due to holidays, illness or just life in general, and we do not want to punish such people.

I agree that Bench Sumo is not the fairest system (just need to look at the MCP posts to confirm that!) - but neither is Ozumo which it is trying to mirror as closely as possible.

[Pandaazuma 1,301]

On ‎30‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 21:33, Jejima said:

Hi all,

 

Ozeki ScreechingOwl won a share of the Jun-Yusho this past basho.  On that basis, I asked Marushiki-zeki to convene the Bench Sumo Yokozuna Deliberation Council (BSYDC) to discuss the Ozeki at this moment in his career.

 

This is the response that I have received:

 

Esteemed Rijicho

 

The venerable members of the Bench YDC have met and discussed the performance of The Bird of Fury, ScreechingOwl, and  the possibility of promotion in July. 

 

We were very pleased with his performance in the Natsu Basho and  the prizes that he won.  But feel that it is too early to consider promotion, at this point in time.   

 

The YDC members feel that we need to see how he does in July, and at that point we will reconvene and consider promotion possibilities then. 

 

Until then we offer him our encouragement to continue in the style of sumo he has achieved, and look forward to seeing many good things from ScreechingOwl. 

 

Marushiki

Chair Bench YDC

 

 

I also hope to see good things from ScreechingOwl in July.

 

Jejima (BS rijicho)

Have I completely missed the talk on the possibility of ScreechingOwl's possible promotion? 12-3D wasn't good enough to re-convene?

[wolfgangho 39]

last time jejima posted after the decission was made to not promote him

i think the discussion is going on now after clothed dorrs

if they descicded to make white or black smoke we will be informded

 

but tahts only my suggestion

[Jejima 1,208]

On day 14 of the basho, I asked Marushiki (the chair of the BSYDC) to convene the Bench Sumo Yokozuna Deliberation Council to discuss both ScreechingOwl and Chocshoporyu.  I am awaiting her response.

However, there is a Bench Sumo rule (if only they were easily assessible) for Yokozunas that they must have won at least one Makunouchi Yusho in their career to be promoted.  ScreechingOwl has never won the Makunouchi yusho.

Chocshoporyu was kadoban this basho.

Therefore fairly confident in ranking both at Ozeki while awaiting the message back from the BSYDC.