Yokozuna/Ozeki Performance

[Ack! 445]

So there are the frequent comments about yokozunae and ozekis not achieving a reputable record, so I decided to do a little math about it.  Assuming the top 16 riskishi all face each other (I know that's a false assumption, but bear with me), there are a total of 8*15 = 120 wins available among them.  If the 3 yokozunae each get a minimum of 12 wins, that's 36.  If each ozeki gets 10 wins, that's 40.  120-36-40 = 44 wins to share among the remaining 9 members of the joi.  44/9 = 4.89 wins on average for them, or worse than 5-10.  I would submit that with 3 yokozunae and 4 ozekis, it would be impressive for them to hammer the rest of the joi so solidly.  There are simply not enough wins to go around for everyone to fill their quotas.  This also means that any ozeki run is that much more impressive/difficult.  My 2 yen's worth.

[Asojima 2,873]

There have been several post decrying the low win counts posted by Kakuryu and Harumafuji. Taking a look at the records of the recent Yokozuna, they come out as close to normal Yokozuna. The numbers are for only bashos in which the rank of Yokozuna was held. The listed age is for intai. Barring the dai-yokozuna in the list, Kakuryu and Harumafuji actually come off looking pretty good.

Shikona	Yusho	Age	Basho	Wins	Per Basho
Kakuryu	( 1 )	( 31 )	( 15 )	( 129 )	8.6
Harumafuji	( 4 )	( 32 )	( 24 )	( 226 )	9.4
Hakuho	( 34 )	( 31 )	( 55 )	( 709 )	12.8
Asashoryu	23	30	42	463	11.0
Musashimaru	7	32	27	216	8.0
Wakanohana III	0	29	11	61	5.5
Takanohana	22	31	49	429	8.7
Takanohana *			42	429	10.2
Akebono	8	32	48	432	9.0
Asahifuji	1	32	9	71	7.8
Hokutoumi	6	29	30	250	8.3
Futahaguro	0	25	9	74	8.2
Onokuni	1	29	23	155	6.7
Takanosato	2	34	15	95	6.3
Chiyonofuji	29	36	59	626	10.5
Wakanohana II	3	30	28	260	9.2
Mienoumi	2	32	8	55	6.8
Kitanoumi	24	32	63	670	10.6
Wajima	12	33	47	466	9.9
Kotozakura	1	34	8	66	8.3

The 3 current Yokozuna are close in age to the intai age for most of their predecessors. Body damage accumulates with age. It is, therefore, fair to include kyujo basho in the calculations.  Takanohana is a bit of an exception.  He sat out 7 consecutive basho shortly before intai. The second set of his numbers do not include these kyujos.
The numbers are a manual extraction from the DB.  Accuracy is not guaranteed.

 

Edited September 25, 2016 by Asojima

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

Mahalo for your efforts Asojima!!! This is a nice and fresh way to compare the Yokozuna. Poor Onokuni, STILL comes in as the one of, if not straight out, the weakest.

[Sumozumo 240]

I'm kind of two minds about the waruguchi to kakuryuu but I really don't understand why Harumafuji gets so much heat. I was actually doing db searches about this a bit earlier but this is one that stands out to me.

Number of times each rikishi has started 11-0 in a basho.

	Rikishi 1	Bouts	Record
1.	Hakuho	25	23-2
2.	Chiyonofuji	19	17-2
3.	Taiho	16	14-2
4.	Asashoryu	13	10-3
5.	Kitanoumi	12	9-3
6.	Takanohana	11	10-1
7.	Futabayama	8	7-1
7.	Wajima	8	8-0
9.	Harumafuji	7	6-1
9.	Tochinishiki	7	6-1

Harumafuji is tied for 9th all time! Its not bad, right?

 

[Rocks 1,807]

Asojima,

 I went ahead and did all yokozuna who have participated in 15 bout basho. This tables includes numbers only from 15 bout basho. Harumafuji comes off well and Kakuryu comes off middle of the pack. He is likely to drop given his age and as he approaches retirement and has other injuries.

Shikona	Yusho	Basho	Wins	Per Basho
Tamanoumi	4	10	130	13.0
Hakuho	34	55	709	12.9
Asashoryu	23	42	463	11.0
Taiho	29	58	622	10.7
Kitanoumi	22	63	670	10.6
Chiyonofuji	29	59	625	10.6
Tochinishiki	6	28	292	10.4
Wajima	12	47	466	9.9
Sadanoyama	3	19	188	9.9
Wakanohana	8	26	254	9.8
Kagamisato	3	21	199	9.5
Harumafuji	4	24	226	9.4
Wakanohana	3	28	260	9.3
Kitanofuji	7	27	247	9.1
Akebono	8	48	430	9.0
Takanohana	15	49	429	8.8
Kashiwado	4	47	407	8.7
Kakuryu	1	15	129	8.6
Azumafuji	4	19	162	8.5
Hokutoumi	6	30	250	8.3
Kotozakura	1	8	66	8.3
Futahaguro	0	9	74	8.2
Terukuni	2	12	98	8.2
Musashimaru	7	27	216	8.0
Asahifuji	1	9	71	7.9
Chiyonoyama	3	32	239	7.5
Haguroyama	1	15	112	7.5
Mienoumi	2	8	55	6.9
Onokuni	1	23	155	6.7
Yoshibayama	0	17	109	6.4
Takanosato	2	15	95	6.3
Asashio	1	17	102	6.0
Tochinoumi	1	17	102	6.0
Wakanohana	0	11	61	5.5

Wakanohana	0	11	61	5.5

yokozunaall.xls

[Rocks 1,807]

If on the other hand we did as you did partially for Takanohana and we eliminate basho for which their was a kyujo we get a different story.

I took the liberty here of subtracting all basho, along with wins from those basho, for which the yokozuna was kyujo for any part of the basho including their final basho at which they retired which the current Yokozuna are bound to have and do not show up in the prior table. Both drop quite a bit with Kakuryu ending up near the bottom:

Shikona	Yusho	Full Basho	Full Wins	Full Per Basho
Hakuho	34	53	709	13.4
Taiho	29	46	604	13.1
Tamanoumi	4	10	130	13.0
Chiyonofuji	29	47	607	12.9
Asashoryu	23	35	449	12.8
Mienoumi	2	4	50	12.5
Takanohana	15	32	394	12.3
Wakanohana	8	20	246	12.3
Tochinishiki	6	23	277	12.0
Azumafuji	4	11	132	12.0
Musashimaru	7	17	204	12.0
Kitanofuji	7	19	226	11.9
Wajima	12	39	462	11.8
Kitanoumi	22	54	635	11.8
Akebono	8	35	411	11.7
Sadanoyama	3	15	176	11.7
Terukuni	2	7	82	11.7
Hokutoumi	6	21	246	11.7
Takanosato	2	8	93	11.6
Wakanohana	3	22	255	11.6
Asahifuji	1	6	69	11.5
Haguroyama	1	8	91	11.4
Kashiwado	4	34	379	11.1
Harumafuji	4	20	222	11.1
Chiyonoyama	3	20	221	11.1
Asashio	1	9	96	10.7
Futahaguro	0	6	64	10.7
Kakuryu	1	12	127	10.6
Kotozakura	1	6	63	10.5
Onokuni	1	14	145	10.4
Wakanohana	0	5	51	10.2
Kagamisato	3	18	182	10.1
Yoshibayama	0	9	90	10.0
Tochinoumi	1	9	87	9.7

yokozunahealthy.xls

[Asojima 2,873]

Yokozuna have nothing to lose when they go kyujo.  Typically, if they get off to a bad start, they will call it quits.  By eliminating these basho, only the "good" bashos are considered.  The overall effectiveness of the yokozuna is thus lost.
I agree that the results for the active yokozuna do not include the final period of decline.

[Rocks 1,807]

I thought that too before I did this but seeing the numbers changed my mind a bit. The start and quit did not happen as often as I expected. By far the most were 0-0-15 kyujo indicating a real injury. Also, in counting the start and quit there is the assumption of many losses. These are yokozuna, yes they would have done bad but 13 losses? Unlikely. Plus it is not like that practice has stopped. That behavior kicked in at the end of careers mostly too.

If I get time I will do one which eliminates only 0-0-15 basho and their very last one and see how that looks.

[Rocks 1,807]

Oh, and for fun Kisenosato's Ozeki numbers. He's never been kyujo.

Shikona	Yusho	Full Basho	Full Wins	Full Per Basho
Kisenosato	0	29	306	10.6

 

 

[Rocks 1,807]

First, a correction. I am doing this manually so there may be error. I miscounted Kitanoumi's Full Basho in my "Healthy" chart seriously effecting his standing. Here is the correct chart:

Shikona	Yusho	Jun-Yusho	Full Basho	Full Wins	Full Per Basho
Hakuho	34	16	53	709	13.4
Taiho	29	8	46	604	13.1
Tamanoumi	4	5	10	130	13.0
Chiyonofuji	29	9	47	607	12.9
Asashoryu	23	6	35	449	12.8
Mienoumi	2	1	4	50	12.5
Kitanoumi	22	15	51	635	12.5
Takanohana	15	12	32	394	12.3
Wakanohana	8	3	20	246	12.3
Tochinishiki	6	7	23	277	12.0
Azumafuji	4	2	11	132	12.0
Musashimaru	7	4	17	204	12.0
Kitanofuji	7	2	19	226	11.9
Wajima	12	8	39	462	11.8
Akebono	8	12	35	411	11.7
Sadanoyama	3	5	15	176	11.7
Terukuni	2	0	7	82	11.7
Hokutoumi	6	6	21	246	11.7
Takanosato	2	2	8	93	11.6
Wakanohana II	3	10	22	255	11.6
Asahifuji	1	2	6	69	11.5
Haguroyama	1	2	8	91	11.4
Kashiwado	4	10	34	379	11.1
Harumafuji	4	4	20	222	11.1
Chiyonoyama	3	5	20	221	11.1
Asashio	1	1	9	96	10.7
Futahaguro	0	3	6	64	10.7
Kakuryu	1	2	12	127	10.6
Kotozakura	1	1	6	63	10.5
Onokuni	1	2	14	145	10.4
Wakanohana III	0	2	5	51	10.2
Kagamisato	3	1	18	182	10.1
Yoshibayama	0	1	9	90	10.0
Tochinoumi	1	0	9	87	9.7

 

[Rocks 1,807]

Next, I did the chart eliminating the following:

Any 0-0-15 basho  as that represents a legitimate injury IMO

Any partial kyojo basho which is immediately proceeded or followed by a 0-0-15 basho as it can legitimately be argued it is the start or continuation of an injury.

All basho after their last full basho through their retirement as some Yokozuna simply take longer to realize their career is over than others. Most had at least a few. Let's face it, Yokozuna are a proud bunch.

This helps Harumafuji somewhat placing him back in the middle of the pack. Kakuryu, not so much. Mostly it just shuffles a bit and suppresses everyone's number.

I would still argue the Healthy Chart best reflects a Yokozuna's prowess. There was very little "start and quit" basho which could not be tied to a legitimate injury or pending retirement IMO and it's likely the active Yokozuna will have a bit more of that themselves before all is said and done.

I call this the Mostly Healthy Chart:

Shikona	Yusho	Jun-Yusho	MH Basho	MH Wins	MH Per Basho
Hakuho	34	16	54	709	13.1
Tamanoumi	4	5	10	130	13.0
Kitanoumi	22	15	53	649	12.2
Taiho	29	8	50	612	12.2
Chiyonofuji	29	9	51	622	12.2
Takanohana	15	12	34	412	12.1
Asashoryu	23	6	38	458	12.1
Akebono	8	12	35	411	11.7
Hokutoumi	6	6	21	246	11.7
Asahifuji	1	2	6	69	11.5
Kitanofuji	7	2	21	241	11.5
Tochinishiki	6	7	25	286	11.4
Sadanoyama	3	5	16	181	11.3
Wakanohana	8	3	23	254	11.0
Musashimaru	7	4	19	207	10.9
Harumafuji	4	4	21	226	10.8
Wakanohana II	3	10	24	258	10.8
Kashiwado	4	10	36	384	10.7
Wajima	12	8	44	465	10.6
Chiyonoyama	3	5	22	229	10.4
Takanosato	2	2	9	93	10.3
Terukuni	2	0	9	92	10.2
Mienoumi	2	1	5	51	10.2
Azumafuji	4	2	15	150	10.0
Kagamisato	3	1	20	199	10.0
Kakuryu	1	2	13	129	9.9
Onokuni	1	2	16	151	9.4
Kotozakura	1	1	7	66	9.4
Haguroyama	1	2	12	112	9.3
Futahaguro	0	3	8	74	9.3
Wakanohana III	0	2	6	55	9.2
Asashio	1	1	11	100	9.1
Tochinoumi	1	0	11	96	8.7
Yoshibayama	0	1	14	106	7.6

yokozunaMH.xls

[Rocks 1,807]

Finally, I had another idea while doing this and that is for what percentage of basho did a Yokozuna attain a Yusho or Jun-Yusho as that would reflect his prowess in being a major factor in the outcome of the basho as a Yokozuna is expected to be. I have included All, Healthy and Most Healthy numbers and it is sorted by Healthy (Full). As you can see once again Harumafuji and Kakuryu do not come off so well.

Y\JY % Chart:

Shikona	Yusho	Jun-Yusho	Y\JY %	Full Y/JY%	MH Y/JY %
Hakuho	34	16	90.91%	94.34%	92.59%
Tamanoumi	4	5	90.00%	90.00%	90.00%
Takanohana	15	12	55.10%	84.38%	79.41%
Asashoryu	23	6	69.05%	82.86%	76.32%
Chiyonofuji	29	9	64.41%	80.85%	74.51%
Taiho	29	8	63.79%	80.43%	74.00%
Mienoumi	2	1	37.50%	75.00%	60.00%
Kitanoumi	22	15	58.73%	72.55%	69.81%
Musashimaru	7	4	40.74%	64.71%	57.89%
Wakanohana II	3	10	46.43%	59.09%	54.17%
Hokutoumi	6	6	40.00%	57.14%	57.14%
Akebono	8	12	41.67%	57.14%	57.14%
Tochinishiki	6	7	46.43%	56.52%	52.00%
Wakanohana	8	3	42.31%	55.00%	47.83%
Azumafuji	4	2	31.58%	54.55%	40.00%
Sadanoyama	3	5	42.11%	53.33%	50.00%
Wajima	12	8	42.55%	51.28%	45.45%
Takanosato	2	2	26.67%	50.00%	44.44%
Futahaguro	0	3	33.33%	50.00%	37.50%
Asahifuji	1	2	33.33%	50.00%	50.00%
Kitanofuji	7	2	33.33%	47.37%	42.86%
Kashiwado	4	10	29.79%	41.18%	38.89%
Chiyonoyama	3	5	25.00%	40.00%	36.36%
Wakanohana III	0	2	18.18%	40.00%	33.33%
Harumafuji	4	4	33.33%	40.00%	38.10%
Haguroyama	1	2	20.00%	37.50%	25.00%
Kotozakura	1	1	25.00%	33.33%	28.57%
Terukuni	2	0	16.67%	28.57%	22.22%
Kakuryu	1	2	20.00%	25.00%	23.08%
Kagamisato	3	1	19.05%	22.22%	20.00%
Asashio	1	1	11.76%	22.22%	18.18%
Onokuni	1	2	13.04%	21.43%	18.75%
Yoshibayama	0	1	5.88%	11.11%	7.14%
Tochinoumi	1	0	5.88%	11.11%	9.09%

 

 

yokozuna.xls

[Rocks 1,807]

Oh, and again Kisenosato's Ozeki numbers for fun:

Shikona	Yusho	Jun-Yusho	Y\JY %
Kisonosato	0	10	34.48%

 

[bettega 431]

Your great analysis give us some factual basis to our feelings that Hakuho is the best all time and Ama and Kakuryu are medium to low performance Yokosuna 

[Bumpkin 438]

Would it be better to only include each Yokozuna's bouts won, bouts lost, bouts absent, total bouts and won-loss percentage.  Rank them based on won-loss percentage (bouts won/ bouts won and loss) and (bouts won/ bouts won, loss and absent).

[Rocks 1,807]

1 hour ago, Bumpkin said:

Would it be better to only include each Yokozuna's bouts won, bouts lost, bouts absent, total bouts and won-loss percentage.  Rank them based on won-loss percentage (bouts won/ bouts won and loss) and (bouts won/ bouts won, loss and absent).

You could, but when it's all done I doubt it will look much different from what's been done as it's all based on the same numbers.

For me the key number is win average when fully participating in a basho. To call yourself a good Yokozuna you should on average be a factor in the yusho and do to that you need a jun-yusho. 11 wins is the very low end for that and really it's more like 12 to be considered great because then you are winning yusho not just jun-yusho. Harumafuji just barely makes it at 11.1. He's a good Yokkozuna. With 8 Yusho though he's clearly a great rikishi. Most careers do not rest on Yokozuna records alone.

Kakuryu at 10.6 is not a good Yokozuna, he's a very good Ozeki. He is not factoring in on the Yusho on average or very often all really. As a Yokozuna he barely beats out Futahaguro on the strength of 1 gift Yusho at 12-3 when an 11-0 Terunofuji when on a 3 bout skid.Of course there are other factors which put him above Futahaguro on a class level. But strictly by the numbers Kak is a poor Yokozuna at best and I seriously doubt that will change much before he retires.

[Bumpkin 438]

Rocks:  How about separate columns of bashos with 10 wins or fewer, 11+wins, 12+ wins, 13+wins, 14+ wins and 15 wins.

[Rocks 1,807]

Bumpkin, maybe I will try that when I get time. But I would put it at 9 wins, 10 wins, etc. 9 wins would take in virtually all the kyujo, although there were actually a few who went kyujo with 9 wins or more. 1 even did it at 11-0. But in the end I think it the list will end up similar to the 2 I have made. A 9 win basho for a Yokozuna is as bad as a kyujo for the Sumo Association as it means you have effectively lost to all the Yokozuna/Ozeki and so are not meeting the Yokozuna standard. 9 wins is a KK, but for a Yokozuna it's no great shakes.

 

the other problem is the Sumo DB is moving very slow lately.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Rocks

[Bumpkin 438]

Rocks:  First, take your time.  Second, I have a suggestion, have five columns.  Grade F (7 or fewer wins).  Grade D (8 or 9 wins).  Grade C (10 or 11 wins).  Grade B (12 or 13 wins) and Grade A ( 14 or 15 wins).  This might also be relevant to Ozekis. 

[Morty 1,483]

My take on this:. There are not good, average and bad Yokozuna. There are just Yokozunae. All of them achieve whatever is considered to be the standard of the day. Some go on to win an awful lot after that. Some win less than that. But all achieve what the YDC at the time consider to be a Yokozuna worthy performance. After that, when they stop performing at the level that a Yok is supposed to achieve at, they go Intai. Consider it this way: an Ozeki is judged as a grand champion and promoted to Yokozuna, not based on their performance over their careers, but over a set period of time, during their Tsuna run. That's what counts.  On whether they can string together a consolidated performance over a limited period of time that can be considered a Yokozuna worthy level of achievement. So they get into Sanyaku, then have an Ozeki level of performance, then while at that rank, achieve at a Yok worthy level for a few basho. Nobody knows what is going to happen after they get promoted - they could hit by a bus the next day, and would still be listed in the annals of sumo greatness, as someone worthy to hold the rank Yokozuna. What comes after that limited period of time (their Tsuna run) is immaterial, so long as they maintain a standard worthy of their rank. When they stop doing that they go kyujo a lot and then they quit. The rewards of the Yok rank are the ability to go Kyujo whenever they want, without penalty. The negative aspects of the rank is that as soon as you stop performing, you have to quit. But the point about Yokozuna is not what happens after they achieve the rank, but the achievement in the first place. They prove they are Yok worthy by that performance, not by what follows. So they are all Yokozuna, because they achieved the standard of that rank when they needed to.

The discussion of good, bad and indifferent Yoks entirely misses the point of what a Yokozuna is. Kakaryu is worthy as a Yokozuna, because the YDC considered him worthy of that rank at the time he was on his Tsuna run - that's all that counts. Nothing that comes after, matters. I enjoy the ranking of Yoks as much as the next Western sumo fan, because that's what our culture says we are supposed to do with sports people - rank them from best to worst and then argue about why. But I don't think that's what the Japanese understanding of what a Yokozuna actually is, is. As I said earlier this basho, if you apply a Western sports understanding to this, you will end up only understanding half of the story, and feeling frustrated. A Yokozuna, is a Yokozuna, is a Yokozuna. That's all that counts.