Basho Talk - Nagoya Basho 2016 +++ Spoiler Alert! +++

[Dapeng 233]

The YDC chairman said if Kise is promoted without a yusho he will be a short-lived yokozuna and that's why the chairman insists promotion after a yusho. But I doubt a 12-win yusho is of better quality than a 14-win non-yusho.

[robnplunder 975]

Yusho means you were the best at the basho whether you needed 12 wins or 15 wins to do it. Yokozuna without an Yusho does not make any sense. Yoko & Yusho are synonymous in my opinion. Kise needs an Yusho to be an Yokozuna whether he did it with an 11-4 or 15-0 record.

[rzombie1988 157]

As I said earlier in the thread - if you can't win a title as an Ozeki, how are you going to do it as a Yokozuna?

[Tsubame 359]

Kise needs an Yusho to be an Yokozuna whether he did it with an 11-4 or 15-0 record.

I beg to differ. An 11-4Y with losses to all top-rankers (e.g. 3Y + 1O) will never be enough for a direct promotion.

[bettega 431]

Kise needs an Yusho to be an Yokozuna whether he did it with an 11-4 or 15-0 record.

I beg to differ. An 11-4Y with losses to all top-rankers (e.g. 3Y + 1O) will never be enough for a direct promotion.

Only 2 ocorrences in the 15-bout basho era:

Tochiazuma 1972.01 M5w 11-4 Y

Musashimaru 1996.11 O1w 11-4 Y

And, in fact, Musashimaru wan't promoted.

[WAKATAKE 2,644]

Kise needs an Yusho to be an Yokozuna whether he did it with an 11-4 or 15-0 record.

I beg to differ. An 11-4Y with losses to all top-rankers (e.g. 3Y + 1O) will never be enough for a direct promotion.

Only 2 ocorrences in the 15-bout basho era:

Tochiazuma 1972.01 M5w 11-4 Y

Musashimaru 1996.11 O1w 11-4 Y

And, in fact, Musashimaru wan't promoted.

I remember the great 5 way playoff of Kyushu 1996. Takanohana was the dominant Yokozuna at the time and nobody could do better than 11-4 without him in there that basho. Reminds me of when Kakuryu could only win that second yusho on the strength of a 12-3 in a playoff when Hakuho and Harumafuji weren't around.

[robnplunder 975]

Kise needs an Yusho to be an Yokozuna whether he did it with an 11-4 or 15-0 record.

I beg to differ. An 11-4Y with losses to all top-rankers (e.g. 3Y + 1O) will never be enough for a direct promotion.

I really meant to emphasize that Kise needs an Yusho. But even he gets an 11-4 Yusho without beating an Yokozuna, his record hitherto may be good enough give him the Yokozuna title. If Kise is reading this thread, please win Yusho first and Yokozuna title will come sooner or later. Wakarismaska, Kise san?

[Dapeng 233]

Kise needs an Yusho to be an Yokozuna whether he did it with an 11-4 or 15-0 record.

I beg to differ. An 11-4Y with losses to all top-rankers (e.g. 3Y + 1O) will never be enough for a direct promotion.

I really meant to emphasize that Kise needs an Yusho. But even he gets an 11-4 Yusho without beating an Yokozuna, his record hitherto may be good enough give him the Yokozuna title. If Kise is reading this thread, please win Yusho first and Yokozuna title will come sooner or later. Wakarismaska, Kise san?

If Kise's strength is of yokozuna level, he should be promoted to yokozuna whether he yusho or not. A low-level yusho is not a proof that his strength is of yokozuna level. In my opinion, if he wins more than 13 wins next basho, even not yusho, he proves himself of yokozuna level. But if he wins only 11 or 12 wins, even yusho, I will not agree that he is of yokozuna strength.

[Gurowake 4,016]

If Kise's strength is of yokozuna level, he should be promoted to yokozuna whether he yusho or not. A low-level yusho is not a proof that his strength is of yokozuna level. In my opinion, if he wins more than 13 wins next basho, even not yusho, he proves himself of yokozuna level. But if he wins only 11 or 12 wins, even yusho, I will not agree that he is of yokozuna strength.

Well, I think even 11 wins shows the continuing level of success that should be expected of Yokozuna in the face of going 13-13-12. The mediocre yokozuna we have now have never had that consistent of results, just spikes for one or two tournaments. Harumafuji is kinda close with his 15-15-9-15, but that 9 really sticks out there. Neither of them have ever even had 11 wins in 4 straight tournaments, even if you exclude basho they didn't enter or were injured early in. Kisenosato would show a remarkable level of consistency in his results not seen in the other non-Hakuho Yokozuna if he could get at least 11. If he wins 12 or more, that would be even more impressive. But still, the YDC is not going to recommend to promote someone without a Yusho, no matter how much they show themselves at the strength of other rikishi who were capable of going on the streaks necessary to meet the "two consecutive yusho-equivalent" criteria. It's just not going to happen, ever.

[Dapeng 233]

If Kise's strength is of yokozuna level, he should be promoted to yokozuna whether he yusho or not. A low-level yusho is not a proof that his strength is of yokozuna level. In my opinion, if he wins more than 13 wins next basho, even not yusho, he proves himself of yokozuna level. But if he wins only 11 or 12 wins, even yusho, I will not agree that he is of yokozuna strength.

Well, I think even 11 wins shows the continuing level of success that should be expected of Yokozuna in the face of going 13-13-12. The mediocre yokozuna we have now have never had that consistent of results, just spikes for one or two tournaments. Harumafuji is kinda close with his 15-15-9-15, but that 9 really sticks out there. Neither of them have ever even had 11 wins in 4 straight tournaments, even if you exclude basho they didn't enter or were injured early in. Kisenosato would show a remarkable level of consistency in his results not seen in the other non-Hakuho Yokozuna if he could get at least 11. If he wins 12 or more, that would be even more impressive. But still, the YDC is not going to recommend to promote someone without a Yusho, no matter how much they show themselves at the strength of other rikishi who were capable of going on the streaks necessary to meet the "two consecutive yusho-equivalent" criteria. It's just not going to happen, ever.

Sure. I think the NSK and YDC have little confidence that Kise will yusho after promotion, and they do not want to have another yokozuna who never ever yusho.

Futahaguro was only 22 years old when promoted to yokozuna and it's reasonable to assume that he would earn a yusho afer promotion.

[SumpaX 23]

If Kise's strength is of yokozuna level, he should be promoted to yokozuna whether he yusho or not. A low-level yusho is not a proof that his strength is of yokozuna level. In my opinion, if he wins more than 13 wins next basho, even not yusho, he proves himself of yokozuna level. But if he wins only 11 or 12 wins, even yusho, I will not agree that he is of yokozuna strength.

Well, I think even 11 wins shows the continuing level of success that should be expected of Yokozuna in the face of going 13-13-12. The mediocre yokozuna we have now have never had that consistent of results, just spikes for one or two tournaments. Harumafuji is kinda close with his 15-15-9-15, but that 9 really sticks out there. Neither of them have ever even had 11 wins in 4 straight tournaments, even if you exclude basho they didn't enter or were injured early in. Kisenosato would show a remarkable level of consistency in his results not seen in the other non-Hakuho Yokozuna if he could get at least 11. If he wins 12 or more, that would be even more impressive. But still, the YDC is not going to recommend to promote someone without a Yusho, no matter how much they show themselves at the strength of other rikishi who were capable of going on the streaks necessary to meet the "two consecutive yusho-equivalent" criteria. It's just not going to happen, ever.

To be fair, most yokozuna drive their first basho in the ground... hakuho's 11-4 wasn't that great either. If Kise wins a yusho und gets the promotion, he almost certainly ruins his follow up. Although i wonder why that keeps happening...

[dingo 1,212]

If Kise's strength is of yokozuna level, he should be promoted to yokozuna whether he yusho or not. A low-level yusho is not a proof that his strength is of yokozuna level. In my opinion, if he wins more than 13 wins next basho, even not yusho, he proves himself of yokozuna level. But if he wins only 11 or 12 wins, even yusho, I will not agree that he is of yokozuna strength.

Well, I think even 11 wins shows the continuing level of success that should be expected of Yokozuna in the face of going 13-13-12. The mediocre yokozuna we have now have never had that consistent of results, just spikes for one or two tournaments. Harumafuji is kinda close with his 15-15-9-15, but that 9 really sticks out there. Neither of them have ever even had 11 wins in 4 straight tournaments, even if you exclude basho they didn't enter or were injured early in. Kisenosato would show a remarkable level of consistency in his results not seen in the other non-Hakuho Yokozuna if he could get at least 11. If he wins 12 or more, that would be even more impressive. But still, the YDC is not going to recommend to promote someone without a Yusho, no matter how much they show themselves at the strength of other rikishi who were capable of going on the streaks necessary to meet the "two consecutive yusho-equivalent" criteria. It's just not going to happen, ever.

To be fair, most yokozuna drive their first basho in the ground... hakuho's 11-4 wasn't that great either. If Kise wins a yusho und gets the promotion, he almost certainly ruins his follow up. Although i wonder why that keeps happening...

I think the explanation is pretty simple -- too much sake and not enough practice.

[orandashoho 720]

You can't call someone a "Grand Champion" without him having wone one championship at least.

[Katooshu 3,181]

Doesn't ozeki translate to 'champion'?

[Gurowake 4,016]

Doesn't ozeki translate to 'champion'?

More like "is translated as". It literally means "Great Barrier".

[egparis18 622]

Doesn't ozeki translate to 'champion'?

More like "is translated as". It literally means "Great Barrier".

Do they form one or have to surmount one or both?

[Nantonoyama 248]

I can't imagine a 13-2D not granting the promotion for Kise.

I can't imagine anyone getting promotion without winning a Yusho.

I assume they will not ever take the risk to have another yusho-less yokozuna. Futahaguro's case is too painful for the NSK

[Dapeng 233]

I can't imagine a 13-2D not granting the promotion for Kise.

I can't imagine anyone getting promotion without winning a Yusho.

I assume they will not ever take the risk to have another yusho-less yokozuna. Futahaguro's case is too painful for the NSK

In fact, as I mentioned earlier, they have no confidence that Kise will earn a yusho after promotion.

[RabidJohn 1,722]

I assume they will not ever take the risk to have another yusho-less yokozuna. Futahaguro's case is too painful for the NSK

The problem with Futahaguro wasn't his bout record, which was kind of on a par with Kisenosato's leading up to the 14-1-D that saw him promoted. Nor was the problem that he never won a yusho, though that's the only thing folk seem to remember about him.

No, what he did that was unforgiveable (and resulted in him being the first yokozuna ever expelled from the NSK) was fall out with his oyakata, Tatsunami. Then (alledgedly) Futahaguro hit Tatsunami's wife on his way out of the heya...

It was Futahaguro's off-dohyo behaviour that fell woefully short of the standard expected of a yokozuna, not his quite adequate performance on it.

From what I've seen of Kise's fairly dignified, stoic, impassive demeanour, he's got that part spot on. Just needs a yusho or two...

[Rocks 1,807]

I'm a fan of Kise's. There is no way anyone should be made a Yokozuna without at least 1 Yusho.

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

If Kise's strength is of yokozuna level, he should be promoted to yokozuna whether he yusho or not. A low-level yusho is not a proof that his strength is of yokozuna level. In my opinion, if he wins more than 13 wins next basho, even not yusho, he proves himself of yokozuna level. But if he wins only 11 or 12 wins, even yusho, I will not agree that he is of yokozuna strength.

I will go out on a limb and join Dapeng in supporting a promotion with 13 or more wins, yusho or not. Will the NSK/JSA do it? Most likely not.

[Morningstar 118]

I'm a fan of Kise's. There is no way anyone should be made a Yokozuna without at least 1 Yusho.

While I am not a Fan of his. I would fully support a promotion with any kind of Yusho Win and his current record. Even a 9w and 6l (nearly improbable as it may be) Yusho would be enough in my eyes.

However, the only ones whose opinion count is the YDC.

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

I'm a fan of Kise's. There is no way anyone should be made a Yokozuna without at least 1 Yusho.

While I am not a Fan of his. I would fully support a promotion with any kind of Yusho Win and his current record. Even a 9w and 6l (nearly improbable as it may be) Yusho would be enough in my eyes.

However, the only ones whose opinion count is the YDC.

9-6 Y? Is that even possible? I think there was a Juryo Yusho that ended that way correct? Wasn't there like 50,000 rikishi in the playoff? (ok...maybe not that many...but 8 or 10 correct?) Would a 9-6 Y be enough for an Ozeki Run?

[Asashosakari 18,968]

9-6 Y? Is that even possible? I think there was a Juryo Yusho that ended that way correct? Wasn't there like 50,000 rikishi in the playoff? (ok...maybe not that many...but 8 or 10 correct?)

Yeah, 8-way playoff. Though it bears mentioning that this was arguably 100% on the scheduling committee - they had 3 leaders at 9-5 going into the final day, ranked J2w/J10e/J13e, but rather than putting the high-ranker against one of the lower guys to guarantee at least one 10-5 record, they sent him into a rather pointless exchange bout against a maegashira opponent who was already certain to be demoted. I think they'd be smarter today.

Even in juryo 10-5 yusho scores have happened quite rarely (and right now we've been without one for over six years). Notably, in the days before 1967 when juryo had 36+ rikishi, it never happened - with that many competitors it's a near-certainty that you can engineer at least one 11-win guy by playing off the well-performing rikishi against each other in the second week. So that also applies to the 42-rikishi makuuchi we have now.

[Gurowake 4,016]

Given the release of the Makuuchi pairings a day ahead of time, enough collusion between rikishi might enable a result where 8-7 was the best score. The amount of collusion would have to be absolutely colossal though. They would have to engineer the winners on odd days such that for each even day match there was one with a winning record and one with a losing record so that they could both go back to having level records. I don't think it is possible to prevent this from happening with proper scheduling. At least, my attempts to do so could all be foiled by sufficient collusion but someone more clever might come up with something. In the average case though, I would think it would be nearly impossible for 11-4 to be better than the best Makuuchi record given reasonable scheduling. I'll see what I can determine might happen in the case where they are all equally likely to win each match.

In Juryo, since all the results are in when they make the schedule, there would have to be heavy domination by some heya that precluded scheduling winners against each other for the winning score to be 8 or even 9. I don't know what exactly the minimum that could always be reached is, and it probably depends on heya distribution, but I might also look into that as well.