Basho Talk - Nagoya Basho 2016 +++ Spoiler Alert! +++

[hamcornheinz 839]

If Hakuho doesn't exist, Harumafuji would easily be in the 5 top yokozunas of all time.

Great defensive sumo by Kise. Now we'll see if Hakuho can maintain his motivation tomorrow against Harumafuji and give Kise a chance at play-offs.

How many of Harumafuji's yusho runs have been stopped by Hakuho? Usually he loses to lower-ranked rikishi a bit too much(like kakuryu) and that's his big problem, not his performance against other yokozuna. And the "if someone didn't exist" argument is a bit too easy to make, I mean if Akebono or Musashimaru didn't exist Takanohana would probably have Hakuho numbers..

[Kishinoyama 582]

Musashikuni got 6 wins in his first tournament in Makushita. That is pretty impressive considering he had four consecutive 4 win and 3 loss records in a row. He should jump quite a bit in the Makushita rankings. Can he continue this surge or will he hit another wall.... (Thinking in depth...)

[mikawa 1,794]

out of interest, does anyone know what Harumafuji's record against Hakuho is when he's ahead of Hakuho?

3-0. Met twice with Haru on 14-0 and once on 13-0. Last such meeting more than three years ago, though.

Additionally they've met once while tied 14-0 (Haru won), once while tied 13-1 (ditto), and once while tied 12-0 (Haru lost). But even the last of those bouts was more than two and a half years ago.

In other words, including their two playoffs tomorrow's bout will only be the 9th time in 41 meetings since Harumafuji became ozeki where he isn't trailing...

Thanks for the detailed info :-) , it seems that when Harumafuji isn't trailing, he's actually expected to beat Hakuho. Let's see if that'll be the case tomorrow

[Atenzan 1,074]

If Takanoiwa wins tomorrow and Harumafuji loses, Takanoiwa will be in a yusho playoff without having faced any member of the sanyaku. (His highest aite will have been M2w Takarafuji.) Has a rikishi ever been in a makuuchi kettei-sen before without having faced any member of the sanyaku?

Nope. Well, no modern era maegashira, in any case. I'll goof around a little bit to see whether it has been done without these restrictions.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&form1_rank=M&form1_year=%3E1957&form1_yd=on&form1_m=on

Edit: this is the reason why we should restrict queries like this to the modern era (1958ish onwards). 5 out of 6 maegashira who reached the kettei-sen before 1958 did it without facing any san'yaku opposition. The sixth faced a sekiwake on senshuuraku.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&form1_rank=M&form1_yd=on&form1_m=on

Edited July 23, 2016 by McBugger

[CT3* 331]

When the matta was called in the Harumafuji/Goeido bout, Harumafuji looked pissed. I thought to myself, "Goeido is gonna get punished!" And he did. The Yokozuna was in no mood for games! I hope he hoists the Cup...

[lackmaker 434]

Terunofuji will be fighting Kaisei to retain his rank tomorrow.

Might not Kaisei be fighting to retain his rank?

If Kaisei wins they will both be sekiwake.

If terunofuji wins neither will be sekiwake.

[Rocks 1,807]

I see Sato lost by a foul. Was it a hair pull?

[Jyuunomori 226]

Harumafuji looks super pissed off in this basho. I feel Hakuho will get obliterated tomorrow and Harumafuji will get his Yusho.

Goeido will beat Kisesnosato further destroying any change Kisenosato has for another Tsuna run.

And Takanoiwa will beat Yoshikaze to get his Jun-Yusho.

Oh and Ura will win tomorrow and improve to 11-4 and Amakaze will 13-2 Yusho and be M16 next basho.

By the way, Ura got 10-5 records in Juryo twice in a row as a Shin-Juryo. Flames.

[Asashosakari 18,959]

Edit: this is the reason why we should restrict queries like this to the modern era (1958ish onwards). 5 out of 6 maegashira who reached the kettei-sen before 1958 did it without facing any san'yaku opposition. The sixth faced a sekiwake on senshuuraku.

That's not so much a modern-era thing though, more a "people started complaining after one too many yusho by a completely untested maegashira" thing that just (roughly) coincided with the start of the 6-basho system.

I'm not 100% positive, but I think the kicker was Tamanoumi's zensho in Kyushu 1957, where he was the sole leader by Day 10 but wasn't tested in any particularly meaningful way afterwards. (He did get two sanyaku opponents eventually, but it was simply not enough for such a strong run that also announced itself so early.)

Edited July 23, 2016 by Asashosakari

[Atenzan 1,074]

Edit: this is the reason why we should restrict queries like this to the modern era (1958ish onwards). 5 out of 6 maegashira who reached the kettei-sen before 1958 did it without facing any san'yaku opposition. The sixth faced a sekiwake on senshuuraku.

That's not so much a modern-era thing though, more a "people started complaining after one too many yusho by a completely untested maegashira" thing that just (roughly) coincided with the start of the 6-basho system.I'm not 100% positive, but I think the kicker was Tamanoumi's zensho in Kyushu 1957, where he was the sole leader by Day 10 but wasn't tested in any particularly meaningful way afterwards. (He did get two sanyaku opponents eventually, but it was simply not enough for such a strong run that also announced itself so early.)

Well timed-coincidence, then. In any case things were significantly different before the late fifties.

Did not know about the Tamanoumi story. Thanks for sharing!

[Morty 1,483]

Meanwhile, Kitaharima henkas Ichinojou, Ichinojou's body fails to be shoved to a quick loss, then Kitaharima beats Ichinojou after a good 15 seconds. Interesting bout.

The speed diffrence between the two was just enormous! seemed like ichinojo was moving in slo mo. very interesting bout indeed.

Ichinojo's downfall in this one was that he chased him. If he had sat back and waited it would have been a different story I reckon

[Atenzan 1,074]

Endou should be well and truly safe from being demoted with today's win.

[Yubinhaad 11,594]

Nice to see that Sadanoumi has woken up after a year's worth of make-koshi.

Memo to self: Stop saying anything. Seven make-koshi in a row. :-(

[Kishinoyama 582]

I honestly did not see a difference in the matta and the actual start of the match for Hakuho vs Kisenosato. I did see that it looked like Harumafuji did not have one hand down in his matta with Goeido. Although it was hard to tell from the angle that I had.... (Blinking...)

[lackmaker 434]

Nice to see that Sadanoumi has woken up after a year's worth of make-koshi.

Memo to self: Stop saying anything. Seven make-koshi in a row. :-(

Each demotion was, by the numbers, small so some luck at least.

Looking closer, ever since and including his return to juryo his promotions and relegations have never been unfavourable and include many a generous move.

Edited July 23, 2016 by lackmaker

[inhashi 2,363]

I see Sato lost by a foul. Was it a hair pull?

A VERY obvious hair pull at 3:08

https://youtu.be/th-acEsdhjU

[rhyen 1,823]

Will we see a matta call in Kisenosato-Goiedo match if Kisenosato starts out in a weaker position?

[Asashosakari 18,959]

Looking closer, ever since and including his return to juryo his promotions and relegations have never been unfavourable and include many a generous move.

It's been noted in other places that Sadanofuji and Toyohibiki have often been treated quite generously in recent years, too, so there's the conjecture that Sakaigawa-beya is receiving a bit of favoritism for whatever reason.

[Dwale 419]

Well, while you can never rule out Hakuho winning any given match, he's obviously not himself, so I think it most likely that Harumafuji will take the yusho.

However, if there's a play-off...I'll be cheering Kisenosato no matter what happens. I would love to be proven wrong about the yusho.

Terunofuji- work on getting a secure grip /early/ because your opponents are beating you to the punch (or grip, in this case). Maybe a double-underhand against some of these lighter guys?

Kitaharima exploiting Ichinojo's limited mobility. An unusual-looking match, but interesting. Good use of speed.

Best of luck of everyone tomorrow.

EDIT: Not expecting Takanoiwa to get past Yoshikaze.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Dwale

[bettega 431]

I think Kaisei will lose tomorrow - not much lost, he'll remain sanyaku. Teru remains Ozeki. Good enought for both of them. It'll not be a intentional lost bout, but Teru has much more to lose than Kaisei tomorrow.

And I doubt Hakuho will let Kisenosato win a Yusho. He'll fight after Kise, so story-teller indeed.

[Akinomaki 40,038]

It's been noted in other places that Sadanofuji and Toyohibiki have often been treated quite generously in recent years, too, so there's the conjecture that Sakaigawa-beya is receiving a bit of favoritism for whatever reason.

For Toyohibiki it might help to be well connected to Prime minister Abe.

Today the wedding reception with about 600 guests, with Prime minister Abe's wife: he is honorary president of Toyohibiki's local Shimonoseki koenkai, she spoke the congratulatory address at the wedding. Toyohibiki and his wife yesterday were invited for dinner to the Prime minister's residence.

Watching the pics from yesterday, it looks like being blinded made Goeido stumble.

o

Edited July 23, 2016 by Akinomaki

[ALAKTORN 346]

What the hell. I have no idea how Hakuhō lost that bout… Kisenosato had no tachiai both times, I’m surprised the second one wasn’t called a matta too. I thought he was done for and then… wat. Despite the win, it’s clear Kisenosato has a really big mental issue.

I think Hakuhō will beat Harumafuji tomorrow unless Haru pulls a trick (maybe the non-henka) and Kise will beat Gōeidō. If Hakuhō loses tomorrow, I think he’s gonna tie his worst-ever record as yokozuna (10–5) which last time was due to an injury. I’m really curious to see what Hakuhō has to say about his performance this basho, I wonder if he really is injured.

Kōnosuke is my favorite gyōji btw.

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

What the hell. I have no idea how Hakuhō lost that bout… Kisenosato had no tachiai both times, I’m surprised the second one wasn’t called a matta too. I thought he was done for and then… wat. Despite the win, it’s clear Kisenosato has a really big mental issue.

I think Hakuhō will beat Harumafuji tomorrow unless Haru pulls a trick (maybe the non-henka) and Kise will beat Gōeidō. If Hakuhō loses tomorrow, I think he’s gonna tie his worst-ever record as yokozuna (10–5) which last time was due to an injury. I’m really curious to see what Hakuhō has to say about his performance this basho, I wonder if he really is injured.

Kōnosuke is my favorite gyōji btw.

I have the strangest feeling Kisenosato WILL triumph today.

When someone's "Worst" record is 10-5, I think that speaks volumes by itself.

Konosuke always sounds CONSTIPATED. Maybe we can send him some Pepto Bismol? Milk of Magnesia? Guava Juice? Pitted Prunes?

[Yamasanzan 93]

Amakaze won Juryo. I just saw his interview and instantly fell in love with him. Seems articulate, positive, intelligent and sensitive- really nice guy. When told his Oyakata Oguruma was commentating he became so red I thought his head would explode.

It didn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jdSpyfToRQ

[Chiyozakura 130]

Edit: this is the reason why we should restrict queries like this to the modern era (1958ish onwards). 5 out of 6 maegashira who reached the kettei-sen before 1958 did it without facing any san'yaku opposition. The sixth faced a sekiwake on senshuuraku.

That's not so much a modern-era thing though, more a "people started complaining after one too many yusho by a completely untested maegashira" thing that just (roughly) coincided with the start of the 6-basho system.

I'm not 100% positive, but I think the kicker was Tamanoumi's zensho in Kyushu 1957, where he was the sole leader by Day 10 but wasn't tested in any particularly meaningful way afterwards. (He did get two sanyaku opponents eventually, but it was simply not enough for such a strong run that also announced itself so early.)

Actually the trigger was Wakanami's Yusho in 1968. He did not face any Yokozuna or Ozeki or anyone else in the Yusho race but took a 13-2 Yusho ahead of Ozeki Tamanoshima and Yutakayama. That result was very unpopular as a lot of people wanted the popular Yutakayama to finally take a Yusho, but he blew it by losing to Komusubi Kirinji and Sekiwake Kiyokuni on the last two days. Wakanami on the other hand had a lot of close calls against lower ranked guys but won an astonishing five bouts by utchari. When they finally matched him with Sanyaku he only faced those in hunt for kachi koshi but non of the other Yusho contenders got a chance to stop him.