Basho Talk - Haru Basho 2016 +++ Spoiler Alert! +++

[Senkoho 552]

He got what he has been asking for for months - a massive "you're a jerk" from the crowd. Neat.

Edit: Yes, he was the best in this tournament and deserved to win.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Senkoho

[dingo 1,114]

On the other hand, Kisenosato could've henkaed Harumafuji as well, instead of losing to him... Sometimes the gap between best and second best is very small.

Edited March 27, 2016 by dingo

[Iginishiki2 8]

Another factor is that the manoeuvre was pulled off against a fellow yokozuna. Still not a yokozuna move, per se, but a bit less of a slight than if pulled off against a joi rikishi, IMO.

I think both points mentioned above and regarding the viewer reactions are correct - it was a bit of an overreaction to the bout alone, but it makes much more sense as a summary of the extra shoves and such Hakuho displayed as of late.

[Monnodo 60]

What an ending to this basho... Here are my two cents:

Hakuho has developed a bad attitude in the last 2 years or so. He does stuff not worthy of his status, he says stuff not worthy of his status etc.

However every time Hakuho does something great nobody gives a damn apperantly. I remember someone brought up a voting from some newspaper where people had to vote for biggest stuff happening in sports and Hakuho critizising the Oyakata was ranked higher than his 33rd Yusho. When you search for Hakuho in japanese on Youtube, the most viewed stuff is Asashoryus extra shoff back in the day, Hakuhos nekomedashi, Hakuhos extra shoves, Hakuhos henka etc. Alll the great stuff he did is apparently uninteresting. And I can only imagine how that feels if you reached so much as Hakuho did.

Is Hakuho behaving badly? Yes. This tournament it was actually very badly. Inexcusable badly, if I may say so.

However I feel like he has a really tough time these days with the crowd. When he wins they are disappointed, when he loses everybody is speculating right away if he retires. Since he stopped being "The Hero" who beat Asashoryu on a regular basis, the people turned on him, media blows everything he does out of proportion until we reached the point where he really gave them reason to write about him and actually became "The Asashoryu" himself this tournament.

That does not excuse his behavior, but the perspective is a different one for me when I consider all this.

So to sum things up: I hope those were honest tears. Because I love seeing Hakuho wrestle and I rather see him lose in grace than winning disgracefully. But I think this will be a turning point, I feel that with this experience Hakuho will return to more appropriate ways.

I am always willing to forgive a man who sincerely apologizes and I give him the benefit of the doubt that he was actually sorry.

[Atenzan 1,074]

To those saying Kisenosato did forward sumo more so than Hakuhou, did the henka against Kotoshougiku not count, apparently, because it was against a non-yokozuna or because it wasn't on senshuuraku? Because it was a full-blooded henka and Kotoshougiku has the ability to beat Kisenosato more than 50% of the time.

[Senkoho 552]

This was not even a half-henka. Full frontal contact was made.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Senkoho

[Atenzan 1,074]

Nope. Two harite and then a sidestep. Exact same thing happened in the Ama-Hakuhou match. Only difference is Kisenosato's hands were more inside and thus it looked less like a henka than Hakuhou's. Also, Kotohougiku's head brushed Kisenosato's body, but it was an inconsequential glancing blow unwanted by Kisenosato that was made after the sidestep.

You are welcome to enlighten me on where exactly did Kisenosato collide with Kotoshougiku with the body.

[rzombie1988 157]

*Shakes head*

The man who is dirty to everyone all basho, pushing people off the dohyo, getting people injured and hitting people to the point of bleeding pulls a henka win for the title. Then does pity party tears after. The people who bought tickets and have been waiting for this one who were expecting a real Yokozuna battle are the ones crying. And I'll guarantee you Hakuho was laughing once the camera's turned off after what he pulled off today. "Hahah I did whatever I wanted all tournament, henka'd for the title then convinced everyone I was sorry by crying about it". Maybe he'll use his fat paycheck as a tissue to wipe his eyes with.

No one could tell me that Hakuho couldn't have won legitimately today. He didn't need to do that. There's people here that didn't even think Harumafuji had a shot today.

So this is now the second tournament in less than a year that's been decided by a henka, after the bullshit Kakuryu pulled on Terunofuji.

The Sumo Association is going to have to get involved. Hakuho don't care, Kakuryu don't care, Terunofuji don't care and Kotoshogiku is so bad that he forces people to do it and never learns. Athough I didn't love Hakuho this basho, I would have had no problem if he won legit. Instead I felt like I was taken for a fool. Why should any of the top guys not henka every time at this point? I've been watching all of sumo since 2013 and originally the henka's were things you'd see Aminishiki or Kitaiki do, not the Yokozuna's. It's below them and makes them look weak and Hakuho looked weak today. Doing it to one of them is an insult.

I just feel taken like a complete fool. I wanted a good match today. I wanted to see the two best in the world go toe to toe and to see whose the strongest. I even got some people who don't usually watch sumo to check the basho out and I'm really not looking forward to having to explain to people who haven't seen much sumo about what was pulled today. This stuff is bad for sumo and everyone was a loser today.

Edited March 27, 2016 by rzombie1988

[rhyen 1,799]

And what if Hakuho was nursing an injury like Goeido & Harumafuji?

Will that excuse him like perennial mummified Aminishiki?

[dingo 1,114]

I guess we'll never know the truth, but FWIW I do believe it wasn't Hakuho's evil masterplan to finish off with a henka but that it really was an instinct or temptation on the spot that he couldn't resist. I think everyone's experienced something like that and you don't need to be a top athlete to relate to it. Still doesn't exuse his extra shoves, especially on poor Okinoumi.

[rzombie1988 157]

To those saying Kisenosato did forward sumo more so than Hakuhou, did the henka against Kotoshougiku not count, apparently, because it was against a non-yokozuna or because it wasn't on senshuuraku? Because it was a full-blooded henka and Kotoshougiku has the ability to beat Kisenosato more than 50% of the time.

I feel like everyone should get a pass on henka's on Koto. This guy doesn't learn AT ALL. I felt bad for him initially but this should not be happening consistently to an Ozeki. I seriously have no idea how he is an Ozeki or how he got a title. None.

Edited March 27, 2016 by rzombie1988

[hamcornheinz 839]

To those saying Kisenosato did forward sumo more so than Hakuhou, did the henka against Kotoshougiku not count, apparently, because it was against a non-yokozuna or because it wasn't on senshuuraku? Because it was a full-blooded henka and Kotoshougiku has the ability to beat Kisenosato more than 50% of the time.

I feel like everyone should get a pass on henka's on Koto. This guy doesn't learn AT ALL. I felt bad for him initially but this should not be happening consistently to an Ozeki. I seriously have no idea how he is an Ozeki or how he got a title. None.

Did you watch last basho?

[hamcornheinz 839]

Ok here it is. Full video of the yusho-cup presentation in HD.

[rzombie1988 157]

To those saying Kisenosato did forward sumo more so than Hakuhou, did the henka against Kotoshougiku not count, apparently, because it was against a non-yokozuna or because it wasn't on senshuuraku? Because it was a full-blooded henka and Kotoshougiku has the ability to beat Kisenosato more than 50% of the time.

I feel like everyone should get a pass on henka's on Koto. This guy doesn't learn AT ALL. I felt bad for him initially but this should not be happening consistently to an Ozeki. I seriously have no idea how he is an Ozeki or how he got a title. None.

Did you watch last basho?

I actually didn't. I saw the first few days and got disrupted by days off. I was so far behind that it didn't matter anymore. But I know I've seen enough of him to know that it must have been a bad field to give him the win.

Edited March 27, 2016 by rzombie1988

[Asashosakari 18,657]

So...will they announce a tsuna run for Kisenosato? 13-2 J in contention till the last day sounds like qualification to me.

No, never.

If he would have beaten Hakuho (the yusho winner), then a jun-yusho can be considered as part of a tsuna run.

But it didn't happen, so, no tsuna hype for Kisenosato.

Never? Already happened three years ago.

[hamcornheinz 839]

To those saying Kisenosato did forward sumo more so than Hakuhou, did the henka against Kotoshougiku not count, apparently, because it was against a non-yokozuna or because it wasn't on senshuuraku? Because it was a full-blooded henka and Kotoshougiku has the ability to beat Kisenosato more than 50% of the time.

I feel like everyone should get a pass on henka's on Koto. This guy doesn't learn AT ALL. I felt bad for him initially but this should not be happening consistently to an Ozeki. I seriously have no idea how he is an Ozeki or how he got a title. None.

Did you watch last basho?

I actually didn't. I saw the first few days and got disrupted by days off. I was so far behind that it didn't matter anymore. But I know I've seen enough of him to know that it must have been a bad field to give him the win.

Well....no. You're wrong. Watch it.

[d_golem 213]

Ok here it is. Full video of the yusho-cup presentation in HD.

Anybody kind enough to roughly translate the interview for a non-Japanese speaker? Just the gist of what being asked and what did Hak said would be fine. Watched the whole thing trying to make out what they're saying but there's only so much you can get from body language alone. Cheers.

Edit : Had a look at the replay of the bout, both slow mo and real time back and forth. First viewing in real time it looks totally a henka and totally pre-meditated. On slow-mo, not so sure. Hak started out going straight, moved his body upwards, right hand outstretched to distract Ama. Ama got his tachi-ai so fast and he looked to be expecting a clash of bodies instead of a palm to the face, that his face made contact with Hak's right hand, blinding him. Now the split second Hak's fingers touched Ama's face, only then his whole body changed momentum to the side : his right leg pushed off the the left, his left leg pivoted around, body swiveled, and left arm moved to side of Ama's face.

Now the question is does Hak's supremely trained body and acutely honed reflexes can actually react that fast to the opportunity that presented itself the moment Ama got blinded by his right hand? It could well be that, and the resultant henka was, as he said, unintentional and his reflex told the muscles on his body to move in the most efficient and least effort way to win the bout. Or it may just be me grossly over-analysing things :-S

Edited March 27, 2016 by d_golem

[rzombie1988 157]

FInal thoughts on the tournament:

Hakuho - Went off on him already. Looked bad early, looked unbeatable mid to late and then cheapskated to victory. It's clear to me he's weakening. A strong champ would not have did what he did and he honestly stayed away from real technique for most of the tournament.

Harumafuji - Not a good tournament likely due to injuries. Didn't look like himself and I didn't see the awesome tachi or wrap-arounds he is known for.

Kakuryu - Kaku-who? He said he was injured and just looked lost in space for most of the tournament. He went back to his "better than Kotoshogiku as an Ozeki' days.

Kisenosato - The choke artist choked again. He finally had a strong first half, which has been his biggest hurdle.The loss to Hak was fine but then losing again right after sealed the deal. At this point, I just don't see him winning a title. He hasn't done it in non-Hakuho tournaments, he hasn't done it when he's been in the lead and I'm just not sure when it can happen at this stage. I don't really know I would tell him if I were his coach. He literally had everything going for him with 3 yokozuna looking weak at times and he couldn't capitalize. He actually looked good and solid for almost all of the tournament and his win vs Kakuryu was one of the best comebacks ever.

Kotoshogiku - He completely exploded once he fell on his face and is back to his old ways. All he has to do is go a bit higher and stop overextending, but he just doesn't learn. I really feel this was his only chance to ever become Yokozuna and he failed. I don't even know if it would be enough even if he were to win the next basho.

Goeido - Looked really solid all basho copying Hakuho's techniques. I don't know where this Goeido's been but I hope we see more of him. He does need to make sure he touches the dohyo with both hands.

Terunofuji - It's clear he's injured and wasn't himself. He really should just take a tournament or two off, get surgery and get fixed. He's too young and has too much potential to have injuries keep screwing him. I don't want him to end up retiring so early like Baruto.

Kotoyuki - Was super strong and had the performance of a lifetime. Can he carry this over? Although I saw all of his matches, I didn't get to analyze them.

Tochinoshin - Typical Toch unfortunately. Bad against the top dogs, good against the rest. If he's going to play the power game he has to pull from inside and under, not outside and over. Don't become an Aoiyama, become the Ozeki you can be.

Ikioi - A lot of the usual from him. Nice win streaks off weaker guys but not much to offer against the stronger guys. He also goes on hot and cold streaks big time. He is guaranteed 9-10 wins at M4-M6.

Sokokurai - He looked really good this basho. Nice technique and he showed even at a sick state he can hang at the top half of Maegashira. Hoping he comes back healthy next time and gets up to M3 or so.

Shodai - Impressive. No Makemoshi's yet. He's got the challenge of his life next tournament.

Aoiyama - Same issues as always but he hung in there with some of the big dogs.

Kaisei - I'm not seeing any Kaisei love and I have a problem with it. He was very good this basho. He's out muscling people and he's grabbing under the belt. This is what I want to see Tochinoshin do. He's never had a KK past M4, so maybe it's time.

Icihinojo - When he stalls, he falls. If he cuts the stalling out, we've seen that he can get be with the very best, though I do think his size carries him.

Amuru - Has Takanoyama syndrome in my opinion. Skilled but needs to put on weight bad. He might be fighting for his Makuuchi life next basho.

Akiseyama - Just wasn't ready this time around. He looked slow and wooden.

Osunaarashi - He looked unbeatable early. If he can keep coming up with that belt work and that speed he will be an Ozeki. I liked what I saw from the Sandman.

Overall thoughts on the basho - Exciting basho marred with Hakuho shenanigans. I liked the matchmaking as we got some more even matches earlier and still got the good matches later. Kisenosato vs Kakuryu was the best match and Kotoyuki was probably the MVP. Next basho should be good as we should have Kak/Haru/Teruno not injured and hopefully we will see Osuna tear it up.

Edited March 27, 2016 by rzombie1988

[CT3* 331]

I feel like everyone should get a pass on henka's on Koto. This guy doesn't learn AT ALL. I felt bad for him initially but this should not be happening consistently to an Ozeki. I seriously have no idea how he is an Ozeki or how he got a title. None.

How long have you been watching sumo?

[Akinomaki 39,516]

So...will they announce a tsuna run for Kisenosato? 13-2 J in contention till the last day sounds like qualification to me.

No, never.

If he would have beaten Hakuho (the yusho winner), then a jun-yusho can be considered as part of a tsuna run.

But it didn't happen, so, no tsuna hype for Kisenosato.

Never? Already happened three years ago.

Apparently many have forgotten how the promotion hurdles for Kisenosato got lowered (because he failed twice?).

And of course he is on a tsuna run now again: the yusho and beating Hakuho for it is what Hakkaku and Isegahama want to see for that. http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/1622875.html

Yesterday Nikkan already headlined like that: http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/1622533.html

Goeido winning might rather not have put Goeido into a run - but a yusho in May with or without official yusho run would even in his case possibly have resulted in a surprising(ly similar to one ozeki) promotion anyway - and will for Kisenosato, even if from now on everybody should take care not to mention a run.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Akinomaki

[Dapeng 232]

Disappointing from Hakuho but I really don't think he planned it - he probably just saw the opportunity and reacted instinctively.

The fans were really heckling him very badly, using very aggressive Japanese. A lot of fans left the stadium before Kimigayo was played - also very rare. For someone who has achieved as much as Hakuho, a bit more respect from the fans would have been nice. Some were probably half drunk, of course, but it wasn't nice to see them haranguing a clearly upset Hakuho. A tournament is fifteen days and Hakuho was the best over that period and deserved the yusho.

Hope this episode is not blown out of proportion and doesn't ruin his deserved yusho party.

In my opinion, he planned it.

First, he wanted to ensure his yusho, although he could beat this basho's Haru head-to-head with more than 70% certainty.

Second, whatever effort Haru exerted, if he lost, spectators would still suspect Haru deliberately "mukyrioku "--- to cooperate with his country man to yusho. With Hakuho henka-ed, no one will blame Haru anymore. (I believe rikishies themselves were well-aware of those mukyriokus in the January basho)

Third, by henka-ing Haru to secure his yusho, Hakuho created a false impression among spectators that he feared a play-off with Kise, i.e., a false impression that Kise is no worse than Haku.

Fourth, Hakuho beat the three Japan-born ozeki badly, literally destroyed them. He did not want to destroy Kise who is Japan's only hope for the next Japan-born yokozuna, for another time in one basho.

Everyone one remember it was ten years for a Japan-born to yusho. Does any one remember when was the last-Japan-born promoted to yokozuna? Not more than 20 years ago?

NSK's next great agenda is to promote a Japan-born to yokozuna before Tokyo Olympics, and Kise is the only candidate.

Maybe I thought too much, but I think what I guessed are reasonable.

[rzombie1988 157]

I feel like everyone should get a pass on henka's on Koto. This guy doesn't learn AT ALL. I felt bad for him initially but this should not be happening consistently to an Ozeki. I seriously have no idea how he is an Ozeki or how he got a title. None.

How long have you been watching sumo?

Regularly since 2013. It's been 20 tournaments. Tournaments with 10 or more wins since then:

Haumafuji - 13

Hakuho - 19 out of 20

Kakuryu - 12

Kotoshogiku - 5

Kisenosato - 14

Goeido - 5

Terunofuji - 5 in Makuuchi, 4 in Sekiwake or Ozeki

Not super impressive. He also never racked up the 33 wins in 3 bashos since his initial promotion, but he's gotten 30 wins through 3 bashos twice.

Edited March 27, 2016 by rzombie1988

[Dapeng 232]

Yesterday I read a paper with the following information:

"In Kisenosato's 26 basho as ozeki, he won 270. More than 10 wins per basho on average. There were 23 ozeki in the past (since Showa) with average 10 wins or more per basho and they were all promoted to yokozuna."

Will Kisenosato be the next Japan-born yokozuna?

[Akinomaki 39,516]

Hakkaku said he thinks it rather was an inashi than a henka from Hakuho, and that he reacted to the opponent.

http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/1622869.html

[Dapeng 232]

Hakkaku said he thinks it rather was an inashi than a henka from Hakuho, and that he reacted to the opponent.

http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/1622869.html

Mr. Hakkaku knows much much more than we can possibly know.....