Doitsuyama 1,185 Posted July 18, 2004 (edited) Another try for the expected new banzuke. Be careful that this banzuke is a LOT trickier than the last one (too few ot too many rikishi all over the place plus lots of double digit scores), so the real thing might vary considerably. Makuuchi Asashoryu (Y1e, 13-2) Y Kaio (O1e, 11-4) O1 Chiyotaikai (O1w, 10-5) Musoyama (O2e, 8-7) O2 Tochiazuma (S2w, 10-5) Wakanosato (S1e, 8-7) S Miyabiyama (M7e, 12-3) Kyokutenho (M1e, 8-7) K Kokkai (M2e, 8-7) Kotomitsuki (K1e, 7-8) M1 Shimotori (M4e, 9-6) Hakuho (M8e, 11-4) M2 Tamanoshima (K1w, 6-9) Iwakiyama (M1w, 7-8) M3 Tochinonada (M6w, 9-6) Asasekiryu (M10w, 11-4) M4 Tosanoumi (M11e, 11-4) Toyozakura (M14e, 12-3) M5 Dejima (M4w, 7-8) Takamisakari (M7w, 8-7) M6 Kakizoe (M5w, 7-8) Hokutoriki (S1w, 3-12) M7 Takekaze (M5e, 6-9) Tokitsuumi (M6e, 6-9) M8 Kotoryu (M3e, 4-11) Kaiho (M8w, 7-8) M9 Jumonji (M11w, 8-7) Futeno (M15w, 10-5) M10 Buyuzan (M12e, 8-7) Hayateumi (M10e, 7-8) M11 Kotonowaka (M2w, 3-12) Tochisakae (M9w, 6-9) M12 Takanowaka (M13w, 8-7) Kyokushuzan (M3w, 3-12) M13 Otsukasa (M14w, 8-7) Kotooshu (J3e, 13-2) M14 Tamakasuga (J1w, 11-4) Roho (J1e, 10-5) M15 Aminishiki (M9e, 4-8-3) Toyonoshima (J4e, 11-4) M16 Takanotsuru (J2w, 9-6) Kitazakura (J8w, 11-4) M17 Juryo Kinkaiyama (M12w, 4-11) J1 Kasugao (M13e, 4-8-3) Toki (M16w, 6-9) J2 Tokitenku (M17e, 6-9) Wakanoyama (J2e, 7-8) J3 Wakatoba (M15e, 3-12) Hagiwara (J6e, 8-7) J4 Harunoyama (M16e, 3-12) Ama (J9e, 9-6) J5 Kasuganishiki (J7e, 8-7) Yotsukasa (J5e, 7-8) J6 Kotoshogiku (J13e, 10-5) Asanowaka (J3w, 5-10) J7 Kobo (J4w, 5-10) Ushiomaru (J7w, 7-8) J8 Gojoro (J8e, 7-8) Bushuyama (J11e, 8-7) J9 Hamanishiki (J5w, 5-10) Katayama (J12w, 8-7) J10 Juzan (J9w, 7-8) Chiyotenzan (J6w, 5-10) J11 Asofuji (Ms3w, 6-1) Daishodai (J14e, 8-7) J12 Sumanofuji (J11w, 7-8) Kaido (J10e, 6-9) J13 Suzukawa (Ms2e, 4-3) Hakurozan (Ms5w, 5-2) J14 Kotonomine (J13w, 7-8) Edited July 18, 2004 by Doitsuyama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,319 Posted July 18, 2004 (too few ot too many rikishi all over the place plus lots of double digit scores) Yes, M9-M14 especially is a total mess this time. (Blushing...) In case anyone cares for a contrarian idea for that area...you'll notice I've got M9e and M14w the same as Doitsuyama, but almost everything in between is completely different. (Blushing...) Kaiho (M8w, 7-8) M9 Kotonowaka (M2w, 3-12) Futeno (M15w, 10-5) M10 Kyokushuzan (M3w, 3-12) Jumonji (M11w, 8-7) M11 Buyuzan (M12e, 8-7) Hayateumi (M10e, 7-8) M12 Kotooshu (J3e, 13-2) Takanowaka (M13w, 8-7) M13 Tochisakae (M9w, 6-9) Otsukasa (M14w, 8-7) M14 Tamakasuga (J1w, 11-4) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kashunowaka 300 Posted July 18, 2004 (too few ot too many rikishi all over the place plus lots of double digit scores) Yes, M9-M14 especially is a total mess this time. (Applauding...) In case anyone cares for a contrarian idea for that area...you'll notice I've got M9e and M14w the same as Doitsuyama, but almost everything in between is completely different. (Blushing...) Kaiho (M8w, 7-8) M9 Kotonowaka (M2w, 3-12) Futeno (M15w, 10-5) M10 Kyokushuzan (M3w, 3-12) Jumonji (M11w, 8-7) M11 Buyuzan (M12e, 8-7) Hayateumi (M10e, 7-8) M12 Kotooshu (J3e, 13-2) Takanowaka (M13w, 8-7) M13 Tochisakae (M9w, 6-9) Otsukasa (M14w, 8-7) M14 Tamakasuga (J1w, 11-4) You are very hard on Buyuzan, Takanowaka and Otsukasa ... I hope they get more generous promotions than that. But then I haven't tried to guess the banzuke myself, so I shouldn't say anything yet. (Blushing...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,319 Posted July 18, 2004 (edited) You are very hard on Buyuzan, Takanowaka and Otsukasa ... I hope they get more generous promotions than that. But then I haven't tried to guess the banzuke myself, so I shouldn't say anything yet. (Blushing...) Yes, I know. (Blushing...) Hayateumi (minus 2 full ranks on 7-8) and Tochisakae (minus 4 ranks on 6-9) also suffer, and mostly because I'm not comfortable dropping Kotonowaka and Shuzan down as far as Doitsuyama did in his guess. (I think they're penalized far too harshly, especially compared to Kotoryu.) But anyway, I'm not much happier with my guess than with Alex's, to be honest...just wanted to put it out there to perhaps stimulate some discussion. You overlooked Jumonji btw. (Applauding...) Same half-rank promotion for him as for the three you mentioned. At least I'm consistent, I guess. Edited July 18, 2004 by Asashosakari Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kashunowaka 300 Posted July 18, 2004 And then there is the Kokkai vs. Shimotori question. I am inclined to believe that Kokkai will be promoted to komusubi, but it's far from given. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Buckton 1 Posted July 18, 2004 I am inclined to believe that Kokkai will be promoted to komusubi, I hope so but probably not higher than the W side. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kashunowaka 300 Posted July 18, 2004 (edited) Argh, this banzuke is really difficult. I want to promote Kotooshu much higher, but there is no room. Too bad if all the new rikishi from juryo end up in the last slots of makuuchi - but I can't see where else they are going to fit. Edited July 18, 2004 by Kashunowaka Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,319 Posted July 18, 2004 Argh, this banzuke is really difficult. I want to promote Kotooshu much higher, but there is no room. Too bad if all the new rikishi from juryo end up in the last slots of makuuchi - but I can't see where else they are going to fit. Yes, my first inclination was to put him at M10 or thereabouts...then I actually got to filling those ranks and...well, I already voiced my frustration about that banzuke area above. (Annoyed...) And my first attempt at the Komusubi ranks had Hakuho on the West side, but a look at Doitsuyama's guess brought me back down to Earth. They do tend to promote to sanyaku from the top rather than from below (which I apparantly forgot or ignored momentarily)... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hoshidango 0 Posted July 19, 2004 Great topic. Thanks for starting the topic Doitsuyama and other fellas for putting opinions in. What I like most about Doitsuyama's banzuke is Hakurozan & Kitazakura made it to each div higher. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amgaa99 0 Posted July 19, 2004 Thanks a lot Doitsuma. (Annoyed...). But I don't agree with you in some rikishi's position. Who has another version of new banzuke? (Applauding...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,319 Posted July 19, 2004 Thanks a lot Doitsuma. (Annoyed...). But I don't agree with you in some rikishi's position. Who has another version of new banzuke? (Applauding...) Well, just like last time...what would your banzuke guess look like? (Laughing...) To be honest, I find your "I don't like how you placed some rikishi, can you please try again?" type of request, umm, rather odd. What is it you're looking for? If you're just looking for somebody to reassure you that Hakuho will be sanyaku next time (however unlikely that may be), rather than actually being interested in the banzuke, please say so... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QttP 0 Posted July 19, 2004 Kokkai won't be promoted to komusubi. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amgaa99 0 Posted July 19, 2004 (edited) I think, in next basho Kyokutenho K Hakuho Kokkai M1 Shimotori Kotomitsuki M2 Tamanoshima Edited July 19, 2004 by amgaa99 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kashunowaka 300 Posted July 19, 2004 Kokkai won't be promoted to komusubi. Perhaps not. And your choice is ...? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,185 Posted July 19, 2004 Kokkai won't be promoted to komusubi. Quite possible. You need a good teacher (maybe your father?) to tell you what constructive criticism is... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,185 Posted July 19, 2004 I think, in next bashoKyokutenho K Hakuho Kokkai M1 Shimotori Kotomitsuki M2 Tamanoshima I believe you still have to learn that there are some areas where personal preferences just aren't asked for. I like Hakuhō a lot more than Kokkai, just based on Sumō style. I was the first who said that he will be Yokozuna. But my task wasn't to make a banzuke how I would like it to be but a banzuke how the NSK likely will make it. Got it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,185 Posted July 19, 2004 Argh, this banzuke is really difficult. I want to promote Kotooshu much higher, but there is no room. Hehe... (Laughing...) I had the same experience... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QttP 0 Posted July 21, 2004 Kokkai won't be promoted to komusubi. Quite possible. You need a good teacher (maybe your father?) to tell you what constructive criticism is... Quite possible. You need a good teacher to tell you why a group of order 2P when P is prime can only be cyclic or dihedral. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Araiwa 0 Posted July 21, 2004 But my task wasn't to make a banzuke how I would like it to be but a banzuke how the NSK likely will make it. Got it? But with Miyabiyama (12-3) likely promoted to Sekiwake and Hakuho one rank below and (11-4) would it really be so strange to make him West Komusubi? I was the first who said that he will be Yokozuna. You were in no way the first who said it. There are so many sumofans out there and not everyone of them is a member of some forum here so this sounds pretty (Sign of disapproval) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kashunowaka 300 Posted July 21, 2004 But my task wasn't to make a banzuke how I would like it to be but a banzuke how the NSK likely will make it. Got it? But with Miyabiyama (12-3) likely promoted to Sekiwake and Hakuho one rank below and (11-4) would it really be so strange to make him West Komusubi? No, it wouldn't be strange in itself. But Miyabiyama's record is irrelevant in this case, since he and Hakuho don't compete for the same banzuke slot. Below Wakanosato (who stays where he is with 8-7), I think most would agree that Miyabiyama and Kyokutenho are the first two that should be promoted, in that order. Hence they get Sw and Ke. Miyabiyama's rank and record would have to be a lot better in order to overtake Wakanosato at Sekiwake east. So there is one sanyaku slot left to fill and three candidates (Kokkai, Shimotori and Hakuho). Going by the simplistic formula 8-7 = +1 step, 9-6 = +3 step etc. they all end up at M1e. If this was at a lower position in the banzuke, I think Hakuho would be first in line. But experience shows that a kachi-koshi from a high maegashira rank is often valued higher. So I would say that it should be either Kokkai or Shimotori. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aderechelsea 125 Posted July 21, 2004 :-D (Punk rocker...) and now you know why i don't want to play GTB ..... i admire your patience guys. it is a very "fun to read" thread though ... a lot of scenarios and still much time untill the next banzuke release.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amgaa99 0 Posted July 23, 2004 Another version of new banzuke???????? Come on guys Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Feginowaka 53 Posted July 23, 2004 Another version of the new Banzuke can be found here as usual: Mr. Kou's Banzuke guess But be aware that he sometimes is very hard on high make-koshi (Kotoryu, Kotonowaka). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Buckton 1 Posted July 23, 2004 Kokkai won't be promoted to komusubi. Quite possible. You need a good teacher (maybe your father?) to tell you what constructive criticism is... Quite possible. You need a good teacher to tell you why a group of order 2P when P is prime can only be cyclic or dihedral. Daddy is a math teacher isn't he? Nice words and theory picked up from pater. Yet, as ever you leave your own reasoning unsupported by habitually ignoring questions regarding your own guesses. Perhaps a teacher would tell you that a reason unsupported is a reason unheard. Even in Russia! :-D Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kashunowaka 300 Posted July 23, 2004 Another version of new banzuke???????? Come on guys Is it me, or has there been a drop in the average quality of posts in this forum? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites