Basho Talk - Hatsu Basho 2016 +++ Spoiler Alert! +++

[Katooshu 3,079]

Bleh at Tochinoshin's loss. Maybe he stepped out first but he was clearly in the dominant position and I thought he had Aminishiki going down before he stepped out; those type of results leave a bad taste in my mouth, especially when the loser is one of my favorite rikishi and has therefore been ruled out of sekiwake promotion!

Edited January 23, 2016 by Kotooshu's Revenge

[Benevolance 2,453]

Who can explain any of the whacked-out stuff Hakuho has been pulling for the last few basho? Nobody asserts shenanigans as long as he still wins while doing it, why does a loss change that?

Because he lost! Hak's never, ever lost! And certainly not to a japanese rikishi. Especially when it counted!

especially when the loser is one of my favorite rikishi and has therefore been ruled out of sekiwake promotion!

It's Tochinoshin. I thought he was already de facto ruled out of a sekiwake promotion?

Edited January 23, 2016 by Benevolance

[Tenshinhan 1,595]

Bleh at Tochinoshin's loss. I know he stepped out first but he was clearly in the dominant position and I thought he had Aminishiki going down before he stepped out; maybe it doesn't matter for the official result but those type of ending leave a bad taste in my mouth, especially when the loser is one of my favorite rikishi and has therefore been ruled out of sekiwake promotion!

Tochinoshin got tochinoshined for another time... I think it was a wrong decision by the shimpan. Aminishikis left heel was outside at the same time as Tochinoshins left foot. This should have been a torinaoshi. (Order, order!)

[Katooshu 3,079]

Yep, watching it again his foot doesn't seem to touch down first.

Very questionable loss.

[dingo 1,100]

Hmm, I on the other hand thought Tochinoshin's foot did go out first. Very unlucky for him, but shit happens. I didn't check any slomo replays though.

Hakuho kinda did a hesitant tachiai. Was he afraid Kisenosato will go for a henka, seeing as he needed the 8th win asap?

Edit: also is it my imagination or has Makuuchi had more diverse kimarite this basho than usual? I get the feeling there's more throws, especially. Looking forward to seeing the post-basho kimarite statistics.

Edited January 23, 2016 by dingo

[Sumozumo 240]

Seems like lately Hakuho has been protecting some nagging injury, he's been very weird even outside the Kisenosato match.

[Katooshu 3,079]

Hmm, I on the other hand thought Tochinoshin's foot did go out first. Very unlucky for him, but shit happens. I didn't check any slomo replays though.

Hakuho kinda did a hesitant tachiai. Was he afraid Kisenosato will go for a henka, seeing as he needed the 8th win asap?

Edit: also is it my imagination or has Makuuchi had more diverse kimarite this basho than usual? I get the feeling there's more throws, especially. Looking forward to seeing the post-basho kimarite statistics.

I thought Tochinoshin's foot may have touched first when I initially watched Kintamayama's video, but there is a slo-motion, zoomed in replay on Jason's channel and to me it seems like Aminishiki's heel touches down before.

Pause at about 5:12

Edited January 23, 2016 by Kotooshu's Revenge

[Asojima 2,870]

I thought Tochinoshin's foot may have touched first when I initially watched Kintamayama's video, but there is a slo-motion, zoomed in replay on Jason's channel and to me it seems like Aminishiki's heel touches down before.

Pause at about 5:12

Note that there are three shimpan with up-close, dohyo-level, unobstructed views of Ami's heel. It is close, but they made the final call. Edited January 23, 2016 by Asojima

[bettega 422]

You can set the speed at 0.25 in Youtube - that way we can see clearly Aminishiki's heel touching ground before Tochinoshin at 5:12 / 5:13

Edited January 23, 2016 by bettega

[Katooshu 3,079]

@Asoijima

I know, but there is also a zoomed in, slow-motion replay that shows Aminishiki's heel touching down first at 5:12.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Kotooshu's Revenge

[Asojima 2,870]

@Asoijima

I know, but there is also a zoomed in, slow-motion replay that shows Aminishiki's heel touching down first at 5:12.

But it only shows the foot bent over the top of the tawara. The point of the heel and the sand of the dohyo are obstructed.

[Tenshinhan 1,595]

One of the shinpan is the head of Isegahama beya. First, he decided that Aminishiki had won (and it was way too close to identify a winner there) and then he decided that Goeido grabbed the topknot of Takarafuji (this was also not clearly to see). Two questionable wins for Isegahama and another open komusubi spot for Takarafuji by the way... (Scratching chin...)

[Akinomaki 39,479]

Tochinoshin got tochinoshined for another time... I think it was a wrong decision by the shimpan. Aminishikis left heel was outside at the same time as Tochinoshins left foot. This should have been a torinaoshi. (Order, order!)

Did anybody see even a slight hint of an utchari? Aminishiki might have tried to execute one, but he was already going down, out of control - a shinitai doesn't get better than this.

Calling that utchari is an insult to the technique - Kokonoe as guest named the right (not-)one: isami-ashi.

In all replays Aminishiki's heel is only visible in the back, it went out about the same time as Tochinoshin's foot went, but it might have been just a tiny bit later - another angle is needed, no pics yet of that.

Still Aminishiki was even more dead a body than Kisenosato against Harumafuji yesterday (who visibly had his hand down first).

The shimpan here could decide both ways and still are correct, but not if that results in a sashi-chigae for a gyoji who was absolutely right:

His rules in very close situations have to be: give it to the one going forward, but especially to the one who was the last to execute a technique.

Isegehama only felt that Aminishiki executed one - the correct decision AGAINST the gyoji in such cases is to have a tori-naoshi.

[Akinomaki 39,479]

Goeido: "When you're out of luck, there's something like this." He tells that he didn't notice it, and Takarafuji also hardly: "Felt like it was and like it wasn't." (other article)

http://www.sanspo.com/sports/news/20160123/sum16012320020012-n1.html

Goeido didn't grab the mage anyway: there was no top-knot where his hand was. He grabbed the neck-hair of Takarafuji - impossible, can't be hansoku.

[dingo 1,100]

After seeing the video Kotooshu's Revenge posted above, I kind of tend to agree it was too close to be called and should've been a torinaoshi. It's just Tochinoshin's luck... I kinda want to say he should've been more careful but it's hard to precisely control your movement in the heat of the bout and especially pushing at the edge of the dohyo like that.

[rhyen 1,798]

Must be Takarafuji's receding mage-line.

[ALAKTORN 346]

So many strange things happened today… I don’t know what to say…

Kitanoumi, we need you back.

Edit: I decided to comment.

Hakuho kinda did a hesitant tachiai. Was he afraid Kisenosato will go for a henka, seeing as he needed the 8th win asap?

I don’t think Kisenosato ever henka’d in his career. If there’s one guy you can trust to never henka, it’s him.

Did anybody see even a slight hint of an utchari? Aminishiki might have tried to execute one, but he was already going down, out of control - a shinitai doesn't get better than this.

I see it– and it’s a pretty well executed one, as well. Aminishiki was definitely not shinitai, and the only reason Tochinoshin’s foot even fell outside was because of Aminishiki’s ucchari. Look closely at how Tochinoshin’s body moves: he “jumps” towards the ucchari direction with his left foot’s toes going against the tawara. I’ll tell you more– Aminishiki only fell backwards because he was executing the ucchari, it was not Tochinoshin forcing him down. Though, I would’ve totally called a torinaoshi. I don’t believe the shinpan had such a good view of Aminishiki’s heel as to be able to determine that it wasn’t out in that split second. I can understand the sashichigae outside of conspiracy theories, though.

Goeido didn't grab the mage anyway: there was no top-knot where his hand was. He grabbed the neck-hair of Takarafuji - impossible, can't be hansoku.

Can the hansoku only be called if the mage is pulled, rather than the hair? If so it was clearly a wrong call. If not, it could go either way.

About Hakuhō… I can only say he’s not who he once was anymore.

[bettega 422]

@Asoijima

I know, but there is also a zoomed in, slow-motion replay that shows Aminishiki's heel touching down first at 5:12.

But it only shows the foot bent over the top of the tawara. The point of the heel and the sand of the dohyo are obstructed.

Here:

http://imgur.com/0IA6eaR

and

http://imgur.com/CY3AaFk

Clearly Aminishiki's heel is out before Tochinoshin

Edited January 23, 2016 by bettega

[Asashosakari 18,648]

Goeido didn't grab the mage anyway: there was no top-knot where his hand was.

I can only repeat that it's hardly as conclusive from the video as you're trying to paint it here. And I doubt it's in the rules that hansoku requires grabbing a full hand of your opponent's mage; you don't need to achieve a complete grip to execute a hair pull that provides an unfair advantage, especially not while moving backwards as Goeido did there.

[ALAKTORN 346]

I doubt it's in the rules that hansoku requires grabbing a full hand of your opponent's mage; you don't need to achieve a complete grip to execute a hair pull that provides an unfair advantage, especially not while moving backwards as Goeido did there.

The hansoku announcement does say “chonmage wo hippatteori”. So, they’re saying he grabbed the mage… which he clearly didn’t.

[Asashosakari 18,648]

The hansoku announcement does say “chonmage wo hippatteori”. So, they’re saying he grabbed the mage… which he clearly didn’t.

Would hardly be the first time that the public announcement of a decision was phrased ambiguously or even partly wrong. It's not a court of law though, where technicalities matter; if a foul occured, it occured, no matter if it's described correctly afterwards.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to sanctioning moves that provide unfair advantages (in any sport), it should be about the spirit of the rule, not about its letters. And to my eyes, Goeido did achieve an unfair advantage there.

[Highway 46]

wow, super surprised at Hakuho last match. I really...can't buy that he would actually throw the match, but that was just the most careless I've seen him, in a majorly important match at least. And he didn't even seem that bothered or the least bit surprised with the loss, which was also strange.

I am sure that Goeido will put up a decent fight tomorrow though, it's not over yet.

[CT3* 331]

The Hakuho vs Kisenosato match literally made me laugh out loud! What a strange bout.

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

Shinitai! :-(

On a more hopeful note, once...just once in my life...I want Kotoyuki to give a loud meow pre-tachiai.

[hamcornheinz 839]

Goeido: "When you're out of luck, there's something like this." He tells that he didn't notice it, and Takarafuji also hardly: "Felt like it was and like it wasn't." (other article)

http://www.sanspo.com/sports/news/20160123/sum16012320020012-n1.html

Goeido didn't grab the mage anyway: there was no top-knot where his hand was. He grabbed the neck-hair of Takarafuji - impossible, can't be hansoku.

Takarafuji's NECK hair? sounds suspicious...