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Sansho Kyushu 2015

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NHK-BS broadcast just showed the sansho list. No shukun-sho. Ikioi and Shohozan both get kanto-sho, Yoshikaze gets gino-sho. These awards are being given outright, no conditions on winning today.

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Shohozan was the only one with a chance for the shukun-sho - maybe if he would just have made it to a yusho-ketteisen, surely if he AND had won it.

Osunaarashi with no kyujo and kachi-koshi would have got it.

Edited by Akinomaki

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Thanks for your insight.

Osunaarashi with a kachi-koshi would have got it.

Second time it happens to him. Nagoya 2014 at M3 he got 2 Kinboshi (Harumafuji, Kakuryu) and failed to reach kachikoshi on the very last bout. The 'promised' shukun-sho was gone by that.

Edited by torquato

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Shohozan was the only one with a chance for the shukun-sho - maybe if he would just have made it to a yusho-ketteisen, surely if he had won it.

According to the press only Yoshikaze was nominated for the shukun-sho, so it didn't matter what Shohozan was going to do on the final day.

I don't think Shohozan being in line for the shukun-sho would have made any sense anyway. Kyokutenho didn't get one for his yusho, nor did Toyonoshima for his 14-1 playoff appearance a few years ago. You don't get the shukun-sho if you're not beating any high-rankers, regardless of how good your record is.

Edited by Asashosakari

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In a ketteisen yusho he would have beaten at least one yokozuna.

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In a ketteisen yusho he would have beaten at least one yokozuna.

When do playoffs ever matter for anything except the yusho? I really don't know what factual basis your previous comment had; Shohozan had the chance to win the yusho today via playoff, but (apparently) nobody even nominated him for the shukun-sho, conditional or otherwise, so that's that.

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I'm just speculating about what the committee might have decided, I don't look at statistics.

I was deeply disappointed not to see Shohozan against Terunofuji on day 15.

I think with that and a yusho he would have fulfilled what is needed for the shukun-sho, wining against the top. I don't know if a ketteisen win will always be disregarded for sansho as well, that is not the NSK deciding on it. Shohozan is the closest a Japanese born has come to the yusho recently. The more years pass since the last one, the easier the committee might award this sansho to the new one - like the criteria for a yokozuna run got lowered for Kisenosato.

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I'm just speculating about what the committee might have decided

(In a state of confusion...) You wrote "Shohozan was the only one with a chance for the shukun-sho", hours after the sansho committee had already demonstrated that this wasn't anywhere close to being true.

You do understand that the sansho selections are being finalized before the Day 15 bouts and there are no adjustments afterwards, right?

Edited by Asashosakari

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I meant that the sam

I'm just speculating about what the committee might have decided

(In a state of confusion...) You wrote "Shohozan was the only one with a chance for the shukun-sho", hours after the sansho committee had already demonstrated that this wasn't anywhere close to being true.

You do understand that the sansho selections are being finalized before the Day 15 bouts and there are no adjustments afterwards, right?

I meant that the same way I mentioned Osunaarashi.

These 2 in my view were the ones who might have got it, the later out of the race even earlier.

The sansho committee decides after the day 15 torikumi are out - or do you know it otherwise?

I know they don't attach complex "ifs" to a sansho anymore, but usually they know who is against whom on day 15.

As Shohozan was not paired against Terunofuji he maybe was put out of contention for the shukun-sho definitely, but my opinion is that he was the only one left who might have got it, with many "ifs".

I hope we'll get the detailed voting from the committee.

Edit: You can see that as a late sansho prediction - I'm a bit behind with things at the moment.

Edited by Akinomaki

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Of course Tochiozan actually figured in the yusho kettei-sen against Kyokutenho. So he was closer to the yusho on that occasion than Shohozan was on this one. I suppose that is getting to be not so recent now.

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Of course Tochiozan actually figured in the yusho kettei-sen against Kyokutenho. So he was closer to the yusho on that occasion than Shohozan was on this one. I suppose that is getting to be not so recent now.

And Tochiozan also only received the kanto-sho, not the shukun-sho, even though he beat two ozeki on the way in addition to getting into the yusho playoff.
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Anybody who thinks Shohozan was deserving of the shukun-sho did not look at who his opponents were. He did not face nor beat anybody worthy of an outstanding performance. Case in point, he loses to Aminishiki to get knocked out of the race.

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I'll try to post my complete thoughts about the sansho, my first posts above were a bit to erratic.

First of all we have to consider that the sansho are awarded by mainly media people.
They usually consider two factors, how good the rikishi has performed (his katsuyaku factor), mainly the number and quality (technique and opponent) of his wins, and what he did to make the basho exciting (his moriagari factor).

The kanto-sho is usually the easiest to award.
In the past 10 wins as a new makuuchi guaranteed it. Not anymore, but I'm sure Mitakeumi would have got it with 10. As a new Japanese hype hope, his good performance adds much more to the excitement of the basho than that of just some plain newcomer.

Simply because the audience loves the local heroes and the media focuses on them, it is plausible to award a sansho easier to the local boy: this is no discrimination against foreigners (and as long as he performed well, Ichinojo received the same hype treatment).

After the 1st basho usual the kanto-sho needs some more wins and a special plus is being in the yusho race as long as possible: being more visible than someone who may silently pile up good wins and in the end has the same as a sansho winner.

Ikio and Shohozan fulfilled that perfectly, especially the latter made the 2nd half of the basho much more exciting.

Shohozan in addition is a Fukuoka native, which adds even more to the excitement. Adding to that the fact that it will be exactly 10 years since the last Japanese born yusho winner in the Hatsu basho, another sansho for him in the event he would have won the tournament is not far fetched.

I would have selected the gino-sho then as first choice, but all 3 sansho are partly interchangeable.

The gino-sho is more prestigious than the kanto-sho and needs a good technique in the bouts (not as many different winning techniques as possible, like many think).

But it can be awarded if the numbers are a bit too low for the kanto-sho or the wins are not enough shukun wins.

Shukun no hoshi are wins against the yusho winner>yokozuna>>ozeki.

Yoshikaze was the one who helped make the 1st half of the basho more exciting. And he is also a Kyusho local, but that was surely a minor factor for him.

If Kakuryu would have had 12 wins on day 14 or Yoshikaze had won instead against Harumafuji or Hakuho, they might have given him the shukun-sho.

Osunaarashi was the only one among those who can get a sansho with a win against one of the 2 yokozuna in the yusho race.
Had he won against Tochiozan, stayed in the tournament and won the next day, he should have received the shukun-sho on just the condition of getting the kachi-koshi on day 15.

If the one in the yusho race against whom a shukunsho hopeful has won had been an ozeki, in the past there had been the additional condition that this ozeki had to get the yusho, so the other one receives the shukun-sho. Since Takanonami I haven't seen that again though.

Shohozan would have had no shukun win, but if they HAD paired him against Terunofuji, he would have had at least a small one, adding to that the (usually out of contention) win against a yokozuna in a ketteisen and the starving for a local yusho, considering him for a shukun-sho on condition of yusho was a possibility.

So till the torikumi for day 15 were out, he was the last one who possibly could have got the shukun-sho, assuming Yoshikaze was set for the gino-sho - he wouldn't have won 2 sansho with at the most 9 wins.

At least, Yoshikaze got me the hoshitori shukun-sho this basho, as the only one to put him on 12.

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I was surprised Yoshikaze got the Gino-Sho, but maybe that is because I don't really understand the criteria. Maybe one of the more knowledgeable posters can help me with this? I know it is the technique prize, but I just watched all of his bouts again and taking the first 14 days as a whole (since prizes are determined before the senshuraku bouts) my reaction was not, "wow, this rikishi sure used great technique this tournament". Yes, he had some good bouts and it is a big accomplishment for him to get KK at komusubi, but I thought the Kanto-Sho would have been more appropriate.

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I tried to cover Yoshikaze in my thoughts above, but maybe it isn't that much well explained.

all 3 sansho are partly interchangeable.

The gino-sho is more prestigious than the kanto-sho and needs a good technique in the bouts (not as many different winning techniques as possible, like many think).

But it can be awarded if the numbers are a bit too low for the kanto-sho or the wins are not enough shukun wins.

Sansho are a mix of quantity and quality. A bit less wins can be covered with better quality: beating a high class opponent and/or using good technique.

If much of the full conditions of 2 other sansho are fulfilled, having done the minimum to receive the 3rd makes it possible to award any of the 3 prizes.

And Yoshikaze - in addition to just his own performance viewed by itself - has done much to help make the 1st half of the basho more exciting. I mentioned that above as the additional factor for a sansho.

Viewing all of that they obviously were convinced that he deserved a sansho, and they voted for the one which conditions he fulfilled the most.

I have no idea how they discuss that and in what fashion they prepare the votes for each proposed case, to avoid accidentally awarding 2 sansho or none at all to a rikishi when they actually all think that he should receive 1.

Edited by Akinomaki
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I was surprised Yoshikaze got the Gino-Sho, but maybe that is because I don't really understand the criteria. Maybe one of the more knowledgeable posters can help me with this?

The gino-sho is pretty much the kanto-sho version for high-ranked rikishi nowadays.
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I used to do sansho predictions and analysis way back on the SML, but my predictions always fail miserably.

I would have predicted Mitakeumi for the kanto-sho early on just before he started losing big and went out of contention.

I would have predicted Osunaarashi for shukun-sho after he had fought back and looked like having a good chance for kachi-koshi, before losing on day 12 and 13 and going kyujo.

Mentioning Yoshikaze early on for his next shukun-sho and then Kakuryu dropping out of the race for good, meaning Yoshikaze's win lost value:

It all would have looked again like anything I predict turns out the opposite.

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Yes if I remember correctly a 10-5 for a shin-nyuumaku is de-facto for receiving the kanto-sho. When I first started watching sumo there was a rikishi who went 10-5 twice and therefore received consecutive kanto-sho prizes when he debuted in makuuchi.

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Yes if I remember correctly a 10-5 for a shin-nyuumaku is de-facto for receiving the kanto-sho.

Much like the repurposing of the gino-sho as a high-ranker prize, that "10-5 debut = kanto-sho" deal has undergone quite a change in the last 7 or 8 years.

Edit: It also used to be said that 11 wins as a makuuchi returnee will definitely result in the kanto-sho; that's gone by the wayside since about 2007 as well.

Edited by Asashosakari

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Just recognized that Yoshikaze got six from his eight wins against sanyaku (Kakuryu, Kisenosato, Goeido, Tochiozan, Myogiryu, Tochinoshin) although I'm not sure if this is important for the Gino-sho (as already said beating high rankers is actually a criterion for the Shukun-sho). But Yoshikaze also got a Gino-sho in September where he beat seven Sanyaku Rikishi so this might have convinced the committee...

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nor did Toyonoshima for his 14-1 playoff appearance a few years ago. You don't get the shukun-sho if you're not beating any high-rankers, regardless of how good your record is.

Wow, that brought back memories - that was Kyushu 2010, which is the only basho I've ever had the privilege of attending.

Actually, Toyonoshima was on fire that basho. He beat Ozekis Baruto and Kaio, Sekiwake Kakuryu, a Kisenosato who had just ended Hakuho's famous streak, and a 12-3 Goeido. He did not go against Kotooshu or Sekiwake Tochiozan, though, and Harumafuji had dropped out early on. And of course, he lost to Hakuho in the playoff. So, I probably wouldn't go as far as to say he didn't "beat any high-rankers". Probably would be considered the second-closest any Japanese has come to winning the yusho, since his odds against Hakuho were much lower than Tochiozan's odds against Kyokutenho. I didn't know much about the special prizes back then, but in hindsight I'm surprised if he didn't win the shukun-sho.

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Actually, Toyonoshima was on fire that basho. He beat Ozekis Baruto and Kaio, Sekiwake Kakuryu, a Kisenosato who had just ended Hakuho's famous streak, and a 12-3 Goeido.

Yeah, that was a bit too condensed on my part...should have been something more along the lines of "beating high-rankers as part of a high-ranker schedule". It's just extremely rare that somebody will be considered for the shukun-sho if he's not in the joi. Toyonoshima did get the other two sansho, so they clearly thought his 14 wins were worth rewarding, it just wasn't the type of 14-1 record that included enough that was worthy of the shukun-sho specifically. I think 15 or 20 years ago he would have received it (probably instead of the kanto-sho), but they're quite stingy with all sansho these days.

It probably didn't help that Toyonoshima was certainly considered underranked at M9 as he was coming back from his gambling suspension, which often knocks down people's sansho chances. The underranked part, that is, not the suspension, although that probably wasn't in his favour either. (Goeido was in the same boat and didn't get any sansho at all for his 12 wins.)

Edited by Asashosakari

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