Basho Talk - Kyushu Basho 2015 +++ Spoiler Alert! +++

[Asashosakari 18,786]

I wonder why sumotalk is even still written. Who would want to stick around if they believe that almost all the matches are fake, and the ones that aren't fake are incompetetent wrestling?

Because the whole shtick of Sumotalk is "foreigners are better wrestlers", and as long as it's possible to make that claim with a straight face and there's an audience who wants to hear the 13,762nd variation about how all the Japanese rikishi suck, it's going to continue to be written, if only for the ad revenue.

If ST ever does go under, I bet 80%+ of its readers never give sumo another thought again.

[ALAKTORN 346]

I’m sad that we got the Harumafuji loss today, yet there still wasn’t any playoff! Oh well. Harumafuji looked really good this basho, that’s what happens when his injuries don’t trouble him. Well deserved.

Really liking young prospect Mitakeumi as well. Let’s see where he can get.

[Kintamayama 44,354]

Well, at least ST was pointing out the interestingly epic fightbacks of past-selldate Ozeki already back then, when everyone around here was still sniffing flowers.

Untrue. We sussed out the OBSC years before you. What is too bad is that the guys over there know their sumo and some are good friends. The incessant use of flashlights is tiresome at best.

[Kintamayama 44,354]

Here's another silly question. Who and what is ST?

it is surprising how provocative this seems to be for some forum members here,

who even, at times, imply disbelief in yaocho and mukiryoku

No. We just don't think every time Hakuhou loses it's yaocho.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Kintamayama

[Kishinoyama 582]

it is surprising how provocative this seems to be for some forum members here,

who even, at times, imply disbelief in yaocho and mukiryoku

In my case, I couldn't care less. Sumo (like all sports) is entertainment, like the court jesters and gladiators of old. If I am entertained, I'm satisfied. Give a win to a guy who needs it.... who gives a sh*#. The outcome of the basho was exciting. Maybe Hakuho really isn't that good but pays really well.

Lighten up and enjoy the entertainment! (Ranting...)

Speaking of Gladiators and entertainment... :-P

Sorry for going off topic but I cold not resist that reference...

Edited November 22, 2015 by Kishinoyama

[DarthJF 5]

Had to wait two long years to see my man Harumafuji win his 7th yusho, but it was all worth it. Hopefully the eight one comes faster.

So, we got four different yusho winners this year. I think that's the most I've seen during the few years I've been following. Looking forward to next year now. Mitakeumi did well in his makuuchi debut, Shoudai is joining makuuchi in January, Ura is looking good. Plenty of Japanese hopefuls. Looking forward seeing how Homarenishiki develops. Is Ichinojou going to get down some weight and start delivering? How long will Hakuhou remain as the west yokozuna? When will Terunofuji become yokozuna? Questions waiting to be asnwered.

[kuroimori 1,634]

Mods, can we have a separate thread (or forum) for those with less than ten years / 5,000 posts please?

Over at ST, it seems they hate sumo, based on all the negative things being said about just about every rikishi and bout. If the whole thing is rigged and a mongolian conspiracy, why even bother watching? It's baffling to me.

Hating Sumo?

Dunno about that, right now if there is hate somewhere it is being hurled at ST from this very thread.

Can we tone it down a bit, please?

At times it feels like this is some sort of a serious radical religious conflict.

I personally found ST first when I was looking for Sumo news online, then discovered SF and while I only post here, I appreciate to have different views on things - not only Sumo.

[Washuyama 635]

it is surprising how provocative this seems to be for some forum members here,

who even, at times, imply disbelief in yaocho and mukiryoku

In my case, I couldn't care less. Sumo (like all sports) is entertainment, like the court jesters and gladiators of old. If I am entertained, I'm satisfied. Give a win to a guy who needs it.... who gives a sh*#. The outcome of the basho was exciting. Maybe Hakuho really isn't that good but pays really well.

Lighten up and enjoy the entertainment! (Ranting...)

Speaking of Gladiators and entertainment... :-P

Sorry for going off topic but I cold not resist that reference...

Funny... 'Cause I thought of that exact scene after I typed it.

[Kaioshoryu 62]

Mods, can we have a separate thread (or forum) for those with less than ten years / 5,000 posts please?

Over at ST, it seems they hate sumo, based on all the negative things being said about just about every rikishi and bout. If the whole thing is rigged and a mongolian conspiracy, why even bother watching? It's baffling to me.

Hating Sumo?

Dunno about that, right now if there is hate somewhere it is being hurled at ST from this very thread.

Can we tone it down a bit, please?

At times it feels like this is some sort of a serious radical religious conflict.

I personally found ST first when I was looking for Sumo news online, then discovered SF and while I only post here, I appreciate to have different views on things - not only Sumo.

Hate is a strong word, I agree. I just read the recap by Mike of day 13 on ST, and he described the sumo on that day as: "bad acting" "piss-poor" "none of the bouts including the leaders were legitimate" etc etc. Doesn't really sound like he enjoys sumo to much.

But I'm not hating ST, in fact I was excited when the site arrived since I could read even more about sumo. The thing is though, the site evolved into everyone believing that everything important in sumo is rigged. I actually find it pretty interesting, how it is possible to have such a different view on sumo from mine.

Anyways, I won't say anything more on ST and it's contributers, they are probably very nice people, I just don't "get" their views on this sport we love: ozumo.

Back on topic: this was a good basho, really liked Ikio's sumo. And Harumafuji's speed is just awesome.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Hating Sumo?

Dunno about that, right now if there is hate somewhere it is being hurled at ST from this very thread.

Can we tone it down a bit, please?

At times it feels like this is some sort of a serious radical religious conflict.

I personally found ST first when I was looking for Sumo news online, then discovered SF and while I only post here, I appreciate to have different views on things - not only Sumo.

I don't know if the ST guys hate sumo, but I certainly don't think they enjoy it all that much. It comes across as though writing for ST has become a job, and watching honbasho is merely a required input for doing that job.

And all the "yaocho this, yaocho that" stuff is little more than clickbait at this point, IMHO. I could say more, but I agree, no point in dwelling on it.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Asashosakari

[hamcornheinz 839]

Mitakeumi did good with his kachikoshi, but did we see him win on the belt once this basho? Worries me.

[yorikiried by fate 1,989]

Well, at least ST was pointing out the interestingly epic fightbacks of past-selldate Ozeki already back then, when everyone around here was still sniffing flowers.

Untrue. We sussed out the OBSC years before you. What is too bad is that the guys over there know their sumo and some are good friends. The incessant use of flashlights is tiresome at best.

With all due respect, Moti, but you are BSing yourself here. Just go to the often quoted Itai-book-thread and witness the spectacle of how adult people are in full tear-filled say-it-ain't-right-I'll-hold-my-breath-until-it-goes-away-mode. And the OBSC denial went on all until Kaio broke down and the YbSMS blew up.

And now it's all "common knowledge, but we (?) just don't make such a fuss"?! Right on.

See, Mike is clearly on an ill-fated crusade. I don't agree with many things these days. But lunatic ST is not. And SF has not always been a spring of pure enlightenment. Can't speak for any mailing list, though, I'll give you that.

[egparis18 622]

Had to wait two long years to see my man Harumafuji win his 7th yusho, but it was all worth it. Hopefully the eight one comes faster.

So, we got four different yusho winners this year. I think that's the most I've seen during the few years I've been following. Looking forward to next year now. Mitakeumi did well in his makuuchi debut, Shoudai is joining makuuchi in January, Ura is looking good. Plenty of Japanese hopefuls. Looking forward seeing how Homarenishiki develops. Is Ichinojou going to get down some weight and start delivering? How long will Hakuhou remain as the west yokozuna? When will Terunofuji become yokozuna? Questions waiting to be asnwered.

Nice post. I'm with you on everything. Especially Ichinojo - as if you didn't know.

[Treblemaker 254]

I'm double shocked now.

Colombo fan?

So the guy with 19,000 posts is double shocked by the guy whose shtick is misinterpreting things though the lens of his own culture?

C'mon!

Wait, what?

[Dapeng 232]

Hating Sumo?

Dunno about that, right now if there is hate somewhere it is being hurled at ST from this very thread.

Can we tone it down a bit, please?

At times it feels like this is some sort of a serious radical religious conflict.

I personally found ST first when I was looking for Sumo news online, then discovered SF and while I only post here, I appreciate to have different views on things - not only Sumo.

I don't know if the ST guys hate sumo, but I certainly don't think they enjoy it all that much. It comes across as though writing for ST has become a job, and watching honbasho is merely a required input for doing that job.

And all the "yaocho this, yaocho that" stuff is little more than clickbait at this point, IMHO. I could say more, but I agree, no point in dwelling on it.

No one can deny there are yaocho and mukiryoku, and "politics" in Sumo, especially in these days' Sumo when foreigners have been dominating for so many years. ST guys insist sumo should be fought straight and everyone to fight with all their strength, which In real world will never happen. Yaocho and mukiryokuwill be there forever.

[Dapeng 232]

Japanese fans have been waiting for a Japan-born rikishi to win a basho for nearly 10 years (and a Japan-born Yokozuna for more than 10 years!). They probably blamed foreigners for being too strong, but for this basho, they can only blame Shohozan and Aminishiki. Aminishiki's stupid win over Shohozan ruined their day.

As I said yesterday, Hakuho stayed away from the yusho by losing the last two days and Haru lost to Kise to give Shohozan a chance of playoff to yusho. All their sacrifices and efforts were ruined by Ami's stupid win.

[lackmaker 432]

As Shohozan had already lost I presume you're joking about Harumafuji's sacrifice.

[808morgan 805]

[808morgan 805]

The whole crowd went OOOOHHHHH when Kotoyuki was bonked out haha. A little Kotoyuki bowling, this overhead shot is one of my favs now. Ikioi is like hey come back here, where are you going?? That's almost the same thing that happened with Hakuho and everyone said it was a henka. Yoshikaze sometimes looks down and charges and just misses the guy altogether when they move a bit.

** For mature audiences only, a water boy was almost crushed to death.

Edited November 22, 2015 by 808morgan

[808morgan 805]

Kisenosato can really pull it out of the bag sometimes, a shame he just never has the consistancy. I did want Ama to win, and in the end he did. But I was worried! (Eh?) And now the void of no sumo for two months.... :'-(

[rzombie1988 157]

How about some discussion? My thoughts on the various wrestlers:

Hakuho - This isn't like him at all. Has his head gotten too big? Hakuho of last year would have taken this without a loss. He hasn't looked as good as he used to look, but he's still the best wrestler. I'd like to see more fire and less relaxed Hakuho, because he straight gave this one away. The neko crap didn't make him look good. Hopefully he comes back next time rejuvinated and ready to win.

Harumafuji - This was what he needed and this was a good showing for him. Although I never thought he was the "3rd Yokozuna", he was definitely losing ground. This was his best score and last win since November 2013. His style is always going to be one that is either going to be hit or miss and maybe his time out of the spotlight helped him out. He's in for some titles ahead if he can get to 11-12 wins and basically, if his tag team partner, Terunofuji can keep improving. A win for either one is a win for both of them.

Kakuryu - I don't think he's in a good position right now. He shortcutted his way to the title last time around and went 9-6 this time around. He didn't look inspired and reminded me of some of his lesser Ozeki Kakuryu days. I don't see another title coming his way for a while.

Kisenosato - He is so strange. He'll win when it's most important for someone else but he just can't seem to get past people he should be able to beat. I can't see him winning any titles for a while and I just wish he knew how to use his Ozeki swag to his advantage.

Terunofuji - Overall a good tournament for him, especially in the last few days as he took down TWO yokozuna and helped Harumafuji clinch the title. If he's at full health next time around, either he or Harumafuji will probably take it. I just hope the 6 losses were more due to injury than talent. He's only going up.

Kotoshogiku - He had a great first half but then everyone remembered, "oh yeah, he does the same thing every time and he's not too hard to beat". Hard to see him ever really going further as it would take a whole mess of injuries, stupid opponents and luck for him to win. If he could just try some different techniques he might do a little better. Still probably an overall positive tournament for him.

Goeido - Who? Oh right. He went downhill since his Ozeki promotion and he really doesn't look like he belongs there. His days of double digit wins seem to be far gone. He seemed to have had things figured out for a bit, but he's lost that. I saw all of his matches and really couldn't tell you about any of them aside from the one that saved his butt. He did beat Kakuryu, but so did everyone else this basho.

Tochiozan - Hey, that's three KK's at Sekiwake now. It's going to be hard for him to get promoted with how top heavy the banzuke is, but he will have to figure it out. Last basho would have been the one for him to get double digit wins. Keep an eye on him.

Yoshikaze - He did pretty good against the big boys. 1-2 vs Yok's, 2-2 against Ozeki's(Went 2-0 vs Yok's last time and 1-2 vs Ozeki's). He should had strung a few more wins together, but I think he's on the right track.

Tochinoshin - He's got the tools, now he needs to use some of them. His power sumo has a ceiling to it and he's gotta expand elsewhere. He's got an Ozeki run in him but he went 0-3 against the Yok's and that's now how you become an Ozeki. I really thought the Ichinojo loss sealed the deal on him this time around. He had a great match with Hakuho though and pushed him to the limit.

Ichinojo - Looked to have found some fire in the last few days, but he stunk early. He's an Ozeki when he cares, but he is not that far off from a Aoiyama when he doesn't. Hope he gets it together soon. He needs to grab the belt, get nasty and look like he wants to win it if he wants to be a player. I'm hoping the last couple of wins helps him remember what he can do. I was surprised to see him outmuscle Tochinoshin and liked his win over Goeido.

Osunaarashi - Man can't catch a break. I thought he looked good this tournament and showed some improvement but he didn't do well against higher ranked guys. Much like Ichinojo and Tochinoshin, he has to expand his arsenal. Also thought he should have gotten more of his Mike Tyson level strikes in.

Aoiyama - He went 7-8, but it was a really good tournament for him. I saw some drive and saw some hope in him. His match against Kisen was good and hopefully gives him some inspiration.

Ikioi - That's 23 wins now in 2 bashos. He's going somewhere. He wants it and he is so much better than about 70% of the wrestlers. He was inspiring and sanyaku could be in his future.

Amuru - I thought he kinda lucked in to his record last time and I didn't like what I saw here. His weight is going to be a problem for him and I don't think it matches up to the style he wants to do.

Kaisei - A strange fellow. I thought he looked good early then just slept his way to his KK, not caring once he hit 7 wins. I do think he's better than Gagamaru and Aoiyama.

Shohozan - The real MVP of the tournament. He looked like a little bull out there. He was mean and he was skilled. I hope we see more of this because he was in control here. He needed to win on the last day though because he really may never be so close to a title again.

Gagamaru - Looked good with not so many flops this time around, but he's still a one trick pony along with a host of others. The problem is, they are better at it than he has. His long palm thrusts are looking good.

Aminishiki - No idea how he did it, but he slipped away with the KK after a really rough start.

Looking forward to the next tournament. Hopefully everyone gets back to full health - physically and mentally. A strong Harumafuji and Terunofuji are going to almost put a strangehold on the title.

Edited November 22, 2015 by rzombie1988

[Arashifuji 10]

Lots of feel-good stories in this basho! Ama (my personal favorite) winning again. Hakuho showing some humanity (at least in the last days of the basho he wasn't the usual ruthless winning machine). The great sumo shown by Ikioi. The resurrection of Shohozan. Terunofuji showing strength even injured. Kotoshogiku also fighting well until kyujo. Goeido saving his tail again. Osunaarashi changing his way of doing sumo (and I hope this knee injury doesn't cripple him too much). Aminishiki making things interesting as always. A great variety of sumo styles in the top rankings (guisa like the speedy Yoshikaze and the powerful Tochinoshin). The new kids arriving at the top divisions... So many interesting stuff.

A great year of sumo got a fitting end. I can't wait until January!

[Dwale 419]

Alright, I'm officially declaring support for future yokozuna Terunofuji. Is there anyone left who thinks he's not an oni?

Shohozan not getting the win but finishing with a more than respectable record. He's obviously very game and I look forward to seeing him at his new rank in January.

Mitakeumi, Chiyoootori, Takayasu & Kotooyuki all showing good toukan this basho, doing the maegashira ranks proud. Aminishiki's win didn't come as a surprise to me today. (I laughed.)

Harumafuji looking strong! Congratulations to him, Kisenosato was just too focused today, doing what he does best. I really like Kisenosato, always have.

Hakuho, eh. We knew he wasn't at 100% coming in, he's disappointed, but he's still The Man, dignity issues aside. I fully expect to see a reinvigorated Hakuho taking names this January.

The big disappointment for me this basho, my main man Osunaarashi not only makekoshi but injured as well. T.T Get well soon, brother.

That was eclipsed, though, by some truly great sumo!

EDIT: Looking forward to Ikioi in sanyaku! Not really a fan, but I like him, he's good. I cheer for him if he's not going up against one of my pet wrestlers. I can't wait for January.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Dwale

[Kuroyama 715]

Well, I'm grateful to ST for one thing. They were the first English-language sumo news site I found online, but then I got so fed up with the nonsense that I started looking elsewhere. And found this place.

On-topic, I wouldn't be surprised to find that Hakuho has been more injured than he's letting on. Or perhaps he's ill, and not admitting it? There was an uncharacteristic lack of energy in his last few bouts, as if he were either moving with extreme care or just didn't have it in him.

[808morgan 805]

Well, I'm grateful to ST for one thing. They were the first English-language sumo news site I found online, but then I got so fed up with the nonsense that I started looking elsewhere. And found this place.

On-topic, I wouldn't be surprised to find that Hakuho has been more injured than he's letting on. Or perhaps he's ill, and not admitting it? There was an uncharacteristic lack of energy in his last few bouts, as if he were either moving with extreme care or just didn't have it in him.

I never found ST, I just looked at it today, I prefer this site for sure. I think I found this site through Kintamayama. Hakuho mentioned his leg, but they said he wasn't going to mention it haha, and NHK says his elbow is also a bit wonky. He did seem to stop and avoid injury perhaps at the edge a few times. He is not well. Terunofuji is still very heavy and strong with a bad knee, with all these factors I was not surprised when Terunofuji won.

Edited November 22, 2015 by 808morgan