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kuroimori

Basho Talk - Kyushu Basho 2015 +++ Spoiler Alert! +++

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I expected no less

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Hakuho is such an altruist isn't he? Giving up a lead on the penultimate day of the basho so Terunofuji--who wasn't kadoban, had a winning record, and is set to face a relatively weak opponent in his final bout--could get a win. Maybe Hak feels sorry for Teru having to endure the knee injury and thought a big stack of kensho would be a nice treat for him? Perhaps so he can afford better knee treatment?

And then of course Hak obviously cares for Harmafuji too, dropping down in the yusho race so the latter--who has beaten him twice in a row and prevented him from winning the previous basho they were both in--could make a glorious return and take the cup without having to go through the stress of a tense and exciting playoff.

Don't even get me started on Hakuho's kind hand towards Shohozan----I think Hakuho was obviously inspired by his resurgence and thought it would be a heartwarming story if Shohozan jun-yusho'd to give the Japanese people another reason to be proud. Hak must realise that if Shohozan does well it will inspire a future generation of Japanese rikishi, which will then take the sport to new heights of popularity.

What a generous and warmhearted man Hakuho is; even after his 0-3-12 last basho he puts others before himself.

Edited by Kotooshu's Revenge
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Hakuho is so good, he only gets injured when he wants to.

He is in fact the only one who can injure Chuck Norris, if he would want to...

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We all know that the number 4 and 9 are considered "unlucky" in Japan. 4 times 9 is 36, and quite obviously Hakuho does everything possible to prevent a 36th yusho. It's as simple as that, you utter fools ;-)

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—ZIP—

I really think everyone here overestimates Hakuhō’s drive. He has been saying for months that he has no motivation to do sumō anymore (ever since surpassing Taihō’s record), so I can very easily believe that he’s throwing matches now. Edit: And by that I don’t really mean actually throwing— but certainly he’s taking much more liberties (nekodamashi anyone?) and not taking sumō very seriously anymore. So even if he might not straight up throw a match, he just will try something weird to make it exciting and end up losing it. Edited by ALAKTORN

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Hakuho is such an altruist isn't he? Giving up a lead in the penultimate day of the basho so Terunofuji--who wasn't kadoban, had a winning record, and is set to face a relatively weak opponent in his final bout--could get a win. Maybe Hak feels sorry for Teru having to endure the knee injury and thought a big stack of kensho would be a nice treat for him? Perhaps so he can afford better knee treatment?

And then of course Hak obviously cares for Harmafuji too, dropping down in the yusho race so the latter--who has beaten him twice in a row and prevented him from winning the previous basho they were both in--could make a glorious return and take the cup without having to go through the stress of a tense and exciting playoff.

Don't even get me started on Hakuho's kind hand towards Shohozan----I think Hakuho was obviously inspired by his resurgence and thought it would be a heartwarming story if Shohozan jun-yusho'd to give the Japanese people another reason to be proud. Hak must realise that if Shohozan does well it will inspire a future generation of Japanese rikishi, which will then take the sport to new heights of popularity.

What a generous and warmhearted man Hakuho is; even after his 0-3-12 last basho he puts others before himself.

perhaps hakuho is a better man than you give him credit for

if you had surpassed everyone, not only in your own sport, but as a champion beyond champion relative to all sports,

wouldn't you want to give back?

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I really think everyone here overestimates Hakuhō’s drive. He has been saying for months that he has no motivation to do sumō anymore (ever since surpassing Taihō’s record), so I can very easily believe that he’s throwing matches now.

He has also said that he wants to reach 36 yusho to "equalize" his old man's 6 bokh national championships. Now what?

Edit: Actually, I don't remember those statements you claim he has made. Link, please?

Edited by Asashosakari
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Hakuho is such an altruist isn't he? Giving up a lead in the penultimate day of the basho so Terunofuji--who wasn't kadoban, had a winning record, and is set to face a relatively weak opponent in his final bout--could get a win. Maybe Hak feels sorry for Teru having to endure the knee injury and thought a big stack of kensho would be a nice treat for him? Perhaps so he can afford better knee treatment?

And then of course Hak obviously cares for Harmafuji too, dropping down in the yusho race so the latter--who has beaten him twice in a row and prevented him from winning the previous basho they were both in--could make a glorious return and take the cup without having to go through the stress of a tense and exciting playoff.

Don't even get me started on Hakuho's kind hand towards Shohozan----I think Hakuho was obviously inspired by his resurgence and thought it would be a heartwarming story if Shohozan jun-yusho'd to give the Japanese people another reason to be proud. Hak must realise that if Shohozan does well it will inspire a future generation of Japanese rikishi, which will then take the sport to new heights of popularity.

What a generous and warmhearted man Hakuho is; even after his 0-3-12 last basho he puts others before himself.

perhaps hakuho is a better man than you give him credit for

if you had surpassed everyone, not only in your own sport, but as a champion beyond champion relative to all sports,

wouldn't you want to give back?

Hak might be a great man--I don't know--but I'm doubtful that he lost in these circumstances for some of the altruistic reasons described.

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Regarding Hakuhou's supposed altruism. I seem to recall him having said sometime that as a yokozuna it is his duty to win every basho he attends to.

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He has also said that he wants to reach 36 yusho to "equalize" his old man's 6 bokh national championships. Now what?

Edit: Actually, I don't remember those statements you claim he has made. Link, please?

Well, he always has time to grab one more yūshō. Maybe he’s afraid of doing it too quickly and end up without a goal again. (Yes I’m reaching.)

I’m not sure where to find the links. It was YT vids. I remember one of them was of Hakuhō talking about it while inside the car after the day’s bout. In general though he wasn’t sure what to do and I think he said it was his wife who told him to go for 36 yūshō to equalize his father (I may be wrong on that). Sorry but I have only my memory to go on, don’t know how to find the vids again.

@DarthJF: I don’t remember him saying that, but people can change ideas regardless. How long ago was that?

Edited by ALAKTORN

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With all the conversations regarding the Hak/Teruno bout, there's little I can add, except for the knee-jerk reaction I had when I saw the video. Yes, a good long belt battle - the kind I haven't seen Hak in for quite a while - followed by what looked like an unusually graceful exit from the salon floor by two ballroom dancers. NO muss, no fuss, no one stepped on his partner's toes, the only thing missing was Terunfuji's lack of presenting Hak with a corsage after the dance, with the promise to call her in the morning.

My reaction was WTF JUST HAPPENED???? I literally threw my hands in the air. An ostrich could have flown into my mouth, it was open that wide. I replayed the bout about 5 times in slow motion, and I still have NO idea what happened. And the first thing I thought of was that Hak gave this one away to a one-legged fellow countryman. Then I thought, it's a yusho race. What is he doing? Was Terunofuji THAT strong? Did he just out-muscle The Greatest Yokozuna out with minimal resistance?

So, I'm seeing both sides of the argument, but I have to admit that accepting this bout as is, after watching Hak play and dance all basho long, and knowing Teruno IS injured, well, it sure looked strange. And, I have yet to read anyone's really definitive reason for the result we watched.

I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one with the same reaction.

Late edit: Saying that it was youcho outright is NOT a definitive reason. For more marks, please give a more complete answer. Papers will be taken up in class tomorrow.

Edited by Treblemaker
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So, I'm seeing both sides of the argument, but I have to admit that accepting this bout as is, after watching Hak play and dance all basho long, and knowing Teruno IS injured, well, it sure looked strange. And, I have yet to read anyone's really definitive reason for the result we watched.

What's with this compulsion to find a "definitive reason"? Stuff happens sometimes. Top-level athletes screw up in really obvious situations all the time, and even moreso top-level athletes on the wrong side of their career peak. I'd ask why some people find it so difficult to accept that sumo isn't immune to that, but I suspect it indeed does come down to what Kintamayama already said: Some fans simply can't fathom the idea that dai-yokozuna aren't infallible. Congrats to the NSK for getting Western fans to buy into quasi-religious notions that Japanese fans stopped believing centuries ago (if they ever did to begin with).

(Or congrats to Sumotalk; it's sometimes hard to figure out how much credit should go each way.)

Edited by Asashosakari
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Your theories are all wrong. Hakuho knows that his 9-0 record against the 'Zan is purely a fluke. He is clearly intimidated by Shohozan and wanted to avoid a potential kettei-sen with the golden child at all costs.

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So, I'm seeing both sides of the argument, but I have to admit that accepting this bout as is, after watching Hak play and dance all basho long, and knowing Teruno IS injured, well, it sure looked strange. And, I have yet to read anyone's really definitive reason for the result we watched.

What's with this compulsion to find a "definitive reason"? Stuff happens sometimes. Top-level athletes screw up in really obvious situations all the time, and even moreso top-level athletes on the wrong side of their career peak. I'd ask why some people find it so difficult to accept that sumo isn't immune to that, but I suspect it indeed does come down to what Kintamayama already said: Some fans simply can't fathom the idea that dai-yokozuna aren't infallible. Congrats to the NSK for getting Western fans to buy into quasi-religious notions that Japanese fans stopped believing centuries ago (if they ever did to begin with).

(Or congrats to Sumotalk; it's sometimes hard to figure out how much credit should go each way.)

Well, Human Beans, by and large, seek to find definitive answers in all things unexplainable. Like, the Meaning of Life, Why is the Sky Blue, and How in the World does a Dai-Yokozuna get backed out of a critical bout in the middle of a yusho race?

Then again, after watching Joe Hart screw up in the Manchester City goal yet again, I get the point of $h!t happening. Still, how DO they fit that piece of paper inside the fortune cookie?

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Well, Human Beans, by and large, seek to find definitive answers in all things unexplainable. Like, the Meaning of Life, Why is the Sky Blue, and How in the World does a Dai-Yokozuna get backed out of a critical bout in the middle of a yusho race?

Let's take a bit of a broader view: Hakuho has had an increasing amount of mental lapses over the last year or two. But because he's HAKUHO, he's good enough to survive the majority of them. Now, the strange thing is this: When he does survive one of those situations, pretty much everyone agrees that he had a mental lapse there. When he doesn't survive them, suddenly the only possible explanation is that he screwed up on purpose? Does not compute. Edited by Asashosakari
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—ZIP—

I really think everyone here overestimates Hakuhō’s drive. He has been saying for months that he has no motivation to do sumō anymore (ever since surpassing Taihō’s record),

No he hasn't. Show me one place that he said that. And not Sumotalk.

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He has also said that he wants to reach 36 yusho to "equalize" his old man's 6 bokh national championships. Now what?

Edit: Actually, I don't remember those statements you claim he has made. Link, please?

I’m not sure where to find the links. It was YT vids. I remember one of them was of Hakuhō talking about it while inside the car after the day’s bout. In general though he wasn’t sure what to do and I think he said it was his wife who told him to go for 36 yūshō to equalize his father (I may be wrong on that). Sorry but I have only my memory to go on, don’t know how to find the vids again.

And from this piece of video (that you have no idea where it is - or actually VIDS, so you should have no problem finding at least one, but you won't) you deduced he has no motivation to do sumo anymore? And you say he has been saying that for months?

He never said anything remotely similar. I challenge you to show me anything near that. Because even if that's what he thinks, he will never say that. That's the part about Sumo you don't fully comprehend. A Yokozuna will never say that. Saying this kind of stuff leads usually to retirement.

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With all the conversations regarding the Hak/Teruno bout, there's little I can add, except for the knee-jerk reaction I had when I saw the video. Yes, a good long belt battle - the kind I haven't seen Hak in for quite a while - followed by what looked like an unusually graceful exit etc.

I am utterly shocked you still are looking for these "signs." Wow, ST is really powerful.

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With all the conversations regarding the Hak/Teruno bout, there's little I can add, except for the knee-jerk reaction I had when I saw the video. Yes, a good long belt battle - the kind I haven't seen Hak in for quite a while - followed by what looked like an unusually graceful exit etc.

I am utterly shocked you still are looking for these "signs." Wow, ST is really powerful.

But I'm NOT looking for signs. Or Wonders. It simply LOOKED weird. That's all. As I had said, after watching Hak dance all basho long, it's seemed very uncharacteristic that he APPEARED to be pushed out WITH WHAT APPEARED TO BE minimal resistance.

And I haven't frequented ST for many ages, and frequently disagree with tone of the reports. I've made that known there, recently when I attempted to restart sumo discussions on a sumo forum. So, ST has nothing to do here.

The fact that I am questioning the result of a bout that ended with an unexpected finish, and trying to analyse why such a thing occurred comes natural to anyone seeing things fall up, trees coloured blue and snow in Arizona in August.

I'm shocked that you're shocked.

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I don't really understand this obsession with yaocho or mukiryoku sumo. Of course shenanigans have happened with the 2011 scandal, minato okayata rambling on to his lover, old recordings of oyakata encouraging straight up sumo, the 7-7 senshuraku statistical study, and committees looking out for "lethargic sumo". Hell I still think it goes on everyone once in a while with people like Goeido getting thrown a bone to reach ozeki if a yusho is secured. I am just not a mind reader and refuse to believe that every damn bout Hak loses is part of an overall conspiracy to spread the wealth with his Mongolian cabal. I prefer to think that most bouts are on the up and up or at least the main ones that affect the yusho race.

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I don't really understand this obsession with yaocho or mukiryoku sumo. Of course shenanigans have happened with the 2011 scandal, minato okayata rambling on to his lover, old recordings of oyakata encouraging straight up sumo, the 7-7 senshuraku statistical study, and committees looking out for "lethargic sumo". Hell I still think it goes on everyone once in a while with people like Goeido getting thrown a bone to reach ozeki if a yusho is secured. I am just not a mind reader and refuse to believe that every damn bout Hak loses is part of an overall conspiracy to spread the wealth with his Mongolian cabal. I prefer to think that most bouts are on the up and up or at least the main ones that affect the yusho race.

And I agree.

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I really don't get why Shohozan didn't get put with an Ozeki yesterday or today, especially when they knew Kotoshogiku was out. Even Ichinojo would have made more sense. Although unlikely, if Shohozan gets to a playoff tommorow, it's going to look bad on the matchmakers.

Harumafuji was on today. No one can fall back and dive in again as good as him. I was actively cheering for him since Hak had to pull out the funny stuff early this basho and Kakuryu took a shortcut for the title last time around.

Kakuryu's gonna catch some heat for the 6-7 losses, though I guess the title win last time makes up for it.

Did think the Hakuho match was a bit odd, Hak didn't seem ready for the initial charge at the start.

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Then again, after watching Joe Hart screw up in the Manchester City goal yet again, I get the point of $h!t happening.

I digress a bit here, but which goal did Joe Hart screw up in? All I saw was Demichelis and Mangala got handed an ass whoopin' by two tiny Brazilians.

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—ZIP—

I really think everyone here overestimates Hakuhō’s drive. He has been saying for months that he has no motivation to do sumō anymore (ever since surpassing Taihō’s record), so I can very easily believe that he’s throwing matches now. Edit: And by that I don’t really mean actually throwing— but certainly he’s taking much more liberties (nekodamashi anyone?) and not taking sumō very seriously anymore. So even if he might not straight up throw a match, he just will try something weird to make it exciting and end up losing it.

I definitly get the feeling Hakuho is going, "hey lets try that thing and see if it works" or "hey that might be fun" There are some unusual things going on!

Edited by 808morgan
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Just watched day 14 without prior knowledge. How the hell does Hakuho lose a match to a guy who isn't putting any weight on his right leg? Why does Hakuho put up no opposition to his 1-legged opponent shoving him to the edge of the ring, then meekly step out?

Because it was yaochō.

I wrote this before reading all posts:

Hakuhō–Terunofuji was 100% yaochō. Hakuhō could’ve yorikiri’d Terunofuji about 17 billion times during the match, but he never once attempted an attack. Even when he lost, he didn’t put up much resistance (sure, he was the rest of the time, but that’s only to make the bout have a semblance of legitimacy). If you can’t see Hakuhō gave that away, you’re a fool. I don’t need to justify it with a reason when it was that obvious– but either way I can see why he would want to help an injured fellow Mongolian (and possibly friend?) risking kadoban. Sure now he might not take the cup, but do you really think Hakuhō cares about the cup at this point in his career?

NHK says Hak's elbow is not feeling great. Ama ran around him so fast I thought it was on a faster playback speed

Edited by 808morgan

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