Basho Talk - Aki 2015 +++ Spoiler alert! +++

[torquato 1,075]

I wonder why Terunofuji and Kakuryu switched sides for the playoff.

[Gurowake 3,923]

I think in terms of considering whether Kakuryu is a "good" Yokozuna, part of the problem is that we're too used to Asashoryu and Hakuho as model Yokozuna, even though they are/were 2 of the very best ever. Historically, there were plenty of mediocre Yokozuna that no one remembers too fondly, and Kakuryu and Harumafuji are doing at least OK compared to them.

[Adil 232]

I have been resisting the temptation to add to the henka debate in the last two days. I agree with some of the other posters here: The most painful thing about a henka (in a big match) is that it dominates the discussion on the forum for some time. Anyway, the basho is over now and this thread will peter out fast, so there's no harm now for me to jump back into the fray, I guess. Last year, when Harumafuji made one of his first post-yokozuna ''henka/not a henka'', I made the following post, which mostly applies to the current situation, if you substitute Harumafji with 'Kakuryu':

'Damn Harumafuji! We are in for another henka debate. Let me save everybody some time and list the most common points that will possibly come up ;-):

1) It was a henka.

2) It wasn't a henka.

3) The henka-er is at fault.

4) The henka-ee is at fault.

5) That is not yokozuna sumo.

6) Either have the kyokai declare it illegal or learn to live with it.'

Coming back to the present day, I see we are having the general henka debate again with some of the old pro-henka points being forwarded, most of which I don't disagree with:

A) There's no shame in doing a henka; (I agree. This is a very general point.)

B) There's no shame in doing a henka for a yokozuna; (Agreed again. Another general point: What if a yokozuna pulled one henka in 500 bouts, and that too, after 'provocation'?)

C) The henka-er is at fault/The henka-ee is at fault; (Neither agree nor disagree; this one is on a case by case basis)

Now back to the point: I was definitely irritated by Kakyryu's henkas. Why? Because he did it THREE times in ONE basho. If you don't mind a yokozuna/ozeki pulling three henkas in one basho, feel free to disagree with me, as someone else mentioned. But I don't think this is your ordinary 'He-pulled-a-henka--It-was-OK/not-OK' situation. This was a yokozuna who pulled three henkas in the space of a few days, and it has left a bad taste in the mouth for me. On the flip side, I've seen some argue that in the Kise bout, the first was a defensive maneuvre to counter Kise's jumping the gun and that the second was a punishment for that jumping the gun. If that is true, that would put a different light on things, although I must say it seems improbable to me, but that's another issue.

Aside from the henka issue, I am very glad Kakuryu got the yusho. No longer will he be mentioned as the yokozuna who never won a yusho after promotion (like you know who). It's not like he was promoted to yokozuna based on mediocre results. They definitely warranted a promotion, flash in the pan or not. Plus, I'm not feeling too sorry for Terunofuji. At his age, he will be getting many more chances for yusho, hopefully. Once Hakuho and Harumafuji are back, Kakuryu won't be getting too many chances, so credit to him for taking his chance when he got it. And Kakuryu is definitely very exciting to watch. Yes, sometimes he does get pushed out while trying one of his patented pulls, but when he does his power sumo, it is amazing. I've said this before: The strength of his grip on the mawashi is just out of this world. It's almost impossible to break his grip once he gets it.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Adil

[lackmaker 432]

"Kintamayama"I always choose the 7-7 guys to win in all games on senshuraku and repeatedly fall flat on my face.

Fall flat on your face once and I'm sympathetic, do it repeatedly and I'd be inclined to be worried about you.

Edited September 27, 2015 by lackmaker

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

Kitanoumi calls the 12 by Terunofuji a result too light for a yokozuna run, esp. with Hakuho etc. absent: Even with a zensho yusho next basho "there would be some critics" - thus he doesn't really say it wouldn't happen.

Isegahama head shimpan, who would have to initiate the promotion, calls the yokozuna run open though, strictly according to the rule of yusho or equivalent good result (=same number of wins), which is YDC recommendation.

http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2015/09/27/kiji/K20150927011217350.html

It sounds like a very vague and polite way of saying "Bring it home next basho, and things will happen from there" I for one would think that if he can get a 13-2 yusho in November, that would be enough. I know its been quite a while since someone was promoted on the 3 tournament system, which I believe is 1 tournament and at least 38 wins? I'm thinking Onokuni was the last one promoted under those circumstances.

In any case, I do believe this is the start of his run. thoughts???

I think 12-3 and 13-2 would be a very weak case for yokozuna promotion and it would only happen if there was a decent amount of belief in Terunofuji's future performances included. But he's young and has plenty of time to rack up two back-to-back yushos.

Yokozuna have been promoted on potential before (Tamanoumi). Also, Isegahama oyakata has a point, "Two Yusho or an equivalent performance" is the standard.

Hokutoumi (Hakkaku Oyakata) is a perfect example, As an Ozeki in 1987, he recorded an 11-4, 12-3 Y, 13-2 J, this was deemed enough to warrant his promotion. That in itself is why I believe 13-2 Y would make Terunofuji the 72nd Yokozuna. Lets also remember that they both won tournaments as Sekiwake, lending more credence to the fact.

I wonder why Terunofuji and Kakuryu switched sides for the playoff.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed that. And since I'm here, does anyone know what those Arrows signify? Kotoshogiku got them this time, I believe Terunofuji got them last time.

[Akinomaki 39,805]

The henka debate, though fruitless, is not just a repeated fashion in the forum, as it may seem to some: the whole press in Japan is always full of criticism after a yokozuna does it.

I've retained my appreciation of a good henka (I used to love especially those against Miyabiyama).

BTW, Aminishiki did none today.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Akinomaki

[Gurowake 3,923]

My guess is that they draw straws for dohyo position for playoffs. They obviously have to for ones larger than 2 people, but the one reasonable explanation for the switch here is that it was randomized. It could also be that the higher ranked rikishi gets the east side regardless of banzuke side. It might also be that they finally remembered that a single yokozuna in the tournament should always fight from the east side.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Gurowake

[Gurowake 3,923]

Based on my oft-repeated 49/4 criteria, I would give Terunofuji the nod for 14 wins in the next tournament regardless. I suspect that the Kyokai might as well, and as noted, it's Terunofuji's oyakata in the Kyokai position that initiates requests to the YDC, so one would expect that such a request be made if it's at all plausible to promote him. Then it just would be up to the YDC.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Gurowake

[Katooshu 3,135]

Very disappointed that Teru lost that playoff after he got my hopes up with the first win. Hopefully he recovers well and works on preventing opponents from getting under his armpits as was repeatedly the case over the last third.

[dingo 1,160]

IMO the only difference between Kisenosato and Kakuryu is that somehow Kakuryu managed his flash-in-the-pan jun-yusho and yusho. Otherwise there's not much difference between them performance-wise, except maybe in the aptitude to employ henka...

I guess I could state the same statement about two arbitrary rikishi in the way you do it - without any arguments to support it, it's rather weak though. Let's look at the post-yokozuna-promotion scores (since including the promotion is a difference you concede already). Kakuryu is 77-28 as a yokozuna (73.3%) while Kisenosato is 94-41 in the same time (69.6%). Kakuryu got criticised in that time, what can we say about Kisenosato then? Not many good things probably...

Speaking of probability, Kakuryu is not significantly better than Kisenosato actually (90% confidence interval of his win% is from 65% to 80%, with Kisenosato's ranging from 62% to 76%), and going by the eye test I agree that Kisenosato isn't looking exactly worse. But Kakuryu is much better in the big point situations (and I don't mean applying a henka here).

Thanks for the in-depth analysis. I wasn't exactly taking two arbitrary rikishi though, but two rikishi at the top of their game -- one of which managed to take the next step, the other didn't. I wouldn't obviously have compared Kakuryu and Shohozan for example. My point, which very well came out in your analysis, was that Kakuryu has basically been performing at ozeki level (provided that ozeki is Kisenosato, not Goeido obviously).

The analysis here http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34310&page=1 suggests otherwise. Kakuryu is a fine Yokozuna, at least by historical Yokozuna standards.

Well I guess Kisenosato is performing at yokozuna level then? Cause there's really very little difference between them.

[Gurowake 3,923]

Yes, Kisenosato is performing basically just short of Yokozuna level, and the only reason he isn't there is the repeated refrain that he loses the matches most important to him.

[Tenshinhan 1,599]

I am very glad Kakuryu got the yusho. No longer will he be mentioned as the yokozuna who never won a yusho after promotion (like You-Know-Who).

Lord Voldemort never won a yusho after yokozuna promotion? (Scratching chin...)

Edited September 27, 2015 by Tenshinhan

[dingo 1,160]

I am very glad Kakuryu got the yusho. No longer will he be mentioned as the yokozuna who never won a yusho after promotion (like You-Know-Who).

rumafji with 'Kakuryu':

Lord Voldemort never won a yusho after yokozuna promotion? (Scratching chin...)

Well, he went kyujo for a long time and when he came back he lost to a new yokozuna and had to intai ;-)

[evilwaldo 11]

Yes, Kisenosato is performing basically just short of Yokozuna level, and the only reason he isn't there is the repeated refrain that he loses the matches most important to him.

The committee relaxed the rules for him a couple of years ago when there was a huge debate over the time without a Japanese Yokozuna.

After he s last failed run the committee mentioned that Kisensato needs to do better against the top competition (Yokozuna).

[HenryK 38]

The analysis here http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34310&page=1 suggests otherwise. Kakuryu is a fine Yokozuna, at least by historical Yokozuna standards.

Well I guess Kisenosato is performing at yokozuna level then? Cause there's really very little difference between them.

I guess this depends on what one looks at. As someone else noted, Kisenosato had an explosive start as a young rikishi. Kakuryu developed more slowly, reached sanyaku 3 years later than Kisenosato. So for much of their careers, Kisenosato was the stronger man.

Now if one looks at their careers since Kakuryu started his Yokozuna run - i.e. from when he pulled away from Kisenosato - Kakuryu:

- has a win ratio of 78 percent (105-30) against Kisenosato's 67 percent (110-55)

- has a win ratio of 58 percent against Y/O (23-17), against Kisenosatos' 44 percent (20-25),

- has 2 yusho against Kisenosato's 0,

- has 2 basho with 14 wins, against Kisenosato's 0;

- finished 5 out of 9 bashos with 12 wins plus, against Kisenosato 1 basho out of 11

- is head-to-head 5-4 against Kisenosato.

In my view they are both ranked correctly.

Edited September 27, 2015 by HenryK

[Kintamayama 44,354]

"Kintamayama"I always choose the 7-7 guys to win in all games on senshuraku and repeatedly fall flat on my face.

Fall flat on your face once and I'm sympathetic, do it repeatedly and I'd be inclined to be worried about you.

Well, I always say to myself- "this time it's going to be different" but it never is. And don't worry about me. I'm beyond salvation.

[Kintamayama 44,354]

My guess is that they draw straws for dohyo position for playoffs. They obviously have to for ones larger than 2 people, but the one reasonable explanation for the switch here is that it was randomized. It could also be that the higher ranked rikishi gets the east side regardless of banzuke side. It might also be that they finally remembered that a single yokozuna in the tournament should always fight from the east side.

I read somewhere that the "always fight from the east" is right only if the basho starts without the East Yokozuna. If he drops out in the middle, the West guy remains West for the rest of the basho. Is this possible?

[Gurowake 3,923]

My guess is that they draw straws for dohyo position for playoffs. They obviously have to for ones larger than 2 people, but the one reasonable explanation for the switch here is that it was randomized. It could also be that the higher ranked rikishi gets the east side regardless of banzuke side. It might also be that they finally remembered that a single yokozuna in the tournament should always fight from the east side.

I read somewhere that the "always fight from the east" is right only if the basho starts without the East Yokozuna. If he drops out in the middle, the West guy remains West for the rest of the basho. Is this possible?

I looked this up when Asashosakari mentioned it previously. They did move Hakuho over to the east starting Day 7 in Nagoya 2008 after Asashoryu withdrew. That's what it says in the DB at least, and here's video of Hakuho's Day 11 match with him fighting from the east.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Gurowake

[808morgan 805]

I wonder why Terunofuji and Kakuryu switched sides for the playoff.

Maybe they do it out of fairness? I thought the same thing, do they always do that?

[808morgan 805]

And that setteled that

Edited September 27, 2015 by 808morgan

[Katooshu 3,135]

:-( at that gif

As a Terunofuji fan I'm still disappointed. First I thought he was running away with it, then with the three losses and injury I thought he was finished, then he comes back on the final day to get his first win over Kakuryu and he was right back in it, then he again lets his opponent get underneath him and he loses the playoff without putting up much of a fight. These these sorts of ups and downs can be painful, although they're also part of why I love sumo.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Kotooshu's Revenge

[rzombie1988 157]

Some thoughts:

Sucked to see the two top Yokozuna's out. Hope they return next time around. Getting worried about Harumafuji as he has a habit of getting injured and he's been absent more than he's been around lately.

Kakuryu - Looked good early but the henka's were cheap. I don't want to see an Ozeki or a Yokozuna ever pulling a henka again.There's little skill in pulling a henka. Kak won but this title wasn't worth as much as it would have been in other tournaments with the two top dogs out and then Terunofuji getting injured. He is improving, but I don't think he would have won it with the other two yokozuna's around.

Terunofuji - Looked great for the first 10 days then looked less so the last few days. One less loss and he woulda won it. He should be Yokozuna if he wins the next basho now that the 2nd place + title rule is in effect. He actually needs Harumafuji around as a win for Harumafuji is a win for him. Having Harumafuji around, no Hakuho and 12 wins? I think he can win it.

Kisenosato - This was his chance and he blew it. He ain't never winning. All 3 Yok's could be out and he'd blow it. #Ozeki4Life.

Kotoshogiku - He looked good doing his usual stuff but if he was ever going to win one, this would have been a good tournament to step up in.

Goeido - He looked to be on cruise control this basho. Not sure what happened but he just lost a step since coming to Ozeki.

Tochinoshin - May be the strongest guy in sumo now, but I don't think the lifting techniques are going to work against the higher level guys. He looked better than usual but he's gotta change up his game a bit and learn to beat the big dogs.

Osunaarashi - Looked good for most of the tournament, but I still feel he has a ways to go to move up. He's gotta stop standing up straight and get those hands on the belt. I'm excited to see him and Toch possible begin their journey to Ozekihood.

Ichinojo - Looked like he got a little better on later in the game but that stalling crap is never going to get him anywhere. I still believe he is mentally weak and I'm shocked he was given so many free wins.

Amuuru - He bends in and pushes inside. Simple stuff but it is effective. I get the feeling he will get owned next basho but I hope he doesn't.

Edited September 27, 2015 by rzombie1988

[torquato 1,075]

does anyone know what those Arrows signify? Kotoshogiku got them this time, I believe Terunofuji got them last time.

There is that legend that in ancient or mythological times a winner of a sumo competition got a bow as prize and was so happy about it that he started to dance with it. In reference to this we see nowadays at the end of every tournament day the yumitori-shiki, the bow-twirling ceremony.

On senshuraku a complete bow is shared among the winners of the last three matches, representing the 3 highest ranks. Sanyaku literally means 3 honours, 3 offices; San is 3. The winner of the first match recieves an arrow, the winner of the second a bow string, and the winner of the last match is as usual honoured with the bow-twirling ceremony.

The arrow is also tight to the world of warriors and Shintoism. It represents a kabura-ya, a signal arrow. They were shot in ritual archery exchanges prior to formal medieval battles to alert the enemy. It is also believed that they chase away evil spirits, and alert friendly gods to lend their support. Therefor, you usually buy such an arrow at your first visit to a shinto shrine on New Year's Day.

A nice pastiche of symbols.

Edited September 28, 2015 by torquato

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

Makes a lot of sense now, as Terunofuji was in the 3rd to last match. I appreciate the explanation very much.

[Hakuhonofan 334]

At first I was very disappointed that Harumafuji was kyujo.

Then Hakuho pulled out after day 2, but who could blame him after he had so much going on before the basho; a long summer tour that gave him a strained pinky toe, and moving just before Kumagatani oyakata was arrested.

What a basho it turned out, 'though.

I'm glad Ikioi persevered ( he had the worst basho not too long ago) and was rewarded.

Yoshikaze--wow, just wow.

Terunofuji--another of my favorite got injured. I was so sure he could've been the winner. He's young, 'though, his time will come for sure. And I think his promotion to ozeki gave other ozekis a kick in the butt that they started giving more effort.

Kotoshogiku--I'm glad he's got a good basho. He's such a nice guy I cringe every time he's kadoban.

Goeido--I think he's so used to being a sekiwake that when he got promoted, he forgot to up his effort to expectation.

Kisenosato--I actually considered him an enemy when he cut Hakuho's run to 63. Even then, I agree that he's been consistently good. He has everything a yokozuna is expected to have, but kept being held back because he crumbles under pressure. But he's young, and I'm sure his time will come when he can finally overcome his monster.

Kakuryu--just how desperate could he be...I was quite taken aback, because seeing him fight last basho I finally believed he's a good yokozuna. I wish he would have won it when Hakuho and Harumafuji were around, just to make a point. It's also a very good basho for him, not to have to share kensho money with other yokozunas.

(I wonder how disappointed people who had to go through so much effort to advertise and to get tickets must have felt when 2 yokozunas were absent this time.)

Hope November will be more exciting.

Oh, I'd like to thank many people who have indulged us so much, time after time, with their efforts so we can follow each basho in any way possible : especially Yubinhaad, Kintamayama, Naganoyama, Akinomaki, torquato, Asashosakari, Fukurou, Tenshinhan, luispeira7cv, and 808morgan for the gifs.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Hakuhonofan