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Fukurou

Basho Talk - Aki 2015 +++ Spoiler alert! +++

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I guess that's the end of Chokiozan's Ozeki run? I'm thinking he would need a zensho in November to still get it, correct? I'm wondering how bad that loss to Ichinojo shook him up? He went downhill from that point.

I'm pretty sure Tochinoshin will get 10-5, I'm wondering if he has enough "go" to start a run for Ozeki? I would not complain one bit.

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Well the usual henka commotion! Kise came back well and then Kak finished off with a great move. I'm not even going to enter the henka conversation!

tumblr_nva9w6juiW1tinozao1_400.gif

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I'm gonna holdout hope that Terunofuji can "Channel Takanohana" and win. YES, I KNOW, he should think about his career, but what a yusho it would be. 12-3-P would be a nice start to his run.

It would be glorious if Terunofuji would return the henka. Twice.

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I don't get the "Asashoryu set the standards for really low hinkaku" business at all. As far as I can tell, the fire he was conjuring up was mostly due to his up-yours attitude towards the elders (part of that resulting from being a ward of a less than a little unfocused oyakata). At the same time, he invoked terror in all but the toughest opponents. And THAT is the core quality of any Yokozuna in my book. Other grandmasters were treated much more kindly for their shortcomings outside of the ring.

Isn't all the other stuff you described also part of how the Kyokai defines hinkaku? That the yokozuna would bring no disgrace to his title either on or off the dohyo?

A henka is no disgrace. Never has been, never will be.

Where do you see henka mentioned in this particular conversation? Since yorikiried by fate was talking about the common perception about Asashoryu's lack of hinkaku, I was merely wondering if it wasn't more about his lack of hinkaku off the dohyo, which I think is as important to the Kyokai as his conduct on the dohyo.

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I guess that's the end of Chokiozan's Ozeki run? I'm thinking he would need a zensho in November to still get it, correct? I'm wondering how bad that loss to Ichinojo shook him up? He went downhill from that point.

I'm pretty sure Tochinoshin will get 10-5, I'm wondering if he has enough "go" to start a run for Ozeki? I would not complain one bit.

Toch hasn't done good against the Ozeki's and Yokozuna's:

vs Kak 1-15

vs Harumafuji 5-15

vs Hakuho 0-19

vs Kise 5-12

vs Koto 4-17

vs Teruno 0-3

vs Goeido 4-10

As much as I like him, he's not getting promoted until he starts performing better against them. Even the weakest current Ozeki, Goeido, has better records against them.

Edited by rzombie1988
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If Tochiozan beats Kotoshogiku today, 13 might be enough in November. But the likelihood of that is very small.

Tochinoshin certainly has a start of a run, but he's got the sorta opposite problem from Tochiozan - whereas the latter suffers from consistency, beating the top dogs a decent amount but losing to the rank-and-file, Tochinoshin is very consistent in beating the rank-and-file, but doesn't usually pose a threat to the higher-ups. He's 1-15 against Kakuryu, 5-13 against Kisenosato, and 4-18 against Kotoshogiku. Compare that to Tochiozan's 18-19, 13-19, and 17-11. Sure, Tochiozan has put up better results in general in the past, whereas Tochinoshin just has his first sanyaku KK, but there's a huge difference between those records. He's not going to be able to make Ozeki until he can beat them at least half the time. So once Harumafuji and Hakuho come back, he'll be struggling for just a KK.

edit Just a bit too slow...

Edited by Gurowake

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Isn't all the other stuff you described also part of how the Kyokai defines hinkaku? That the yokozuna would bring no disgrace to his title either on or off the dohyo?

But there's no "hinkaku bucket" where all of a yokozuna's misdeeds are assigned a value and collected, and when the bucket is full he gets retired. Bad sumo may be a hinkaku issue (I personally disagree with that), but it just can't be equated to other hinkaku issues the way some people were trying to do up-thread. That goes for all such issues actually...people try to argue along the lines of (hypothetical here) "what's worse, Asashoryu breaking the rear-view mirror of a car without witnesses, or Hakuho shoving Ichinojo in front of millions watching on TV", but there's just no point in doing that. Times are different, circumstances are different, the people in charge are different.

Hinkaku isn't a binary "that's good / that's bad" thing, there's no prescribed list of dos and don'ts for yokozuna. Everybody thought Kisenosato had it coming when Hakuho pulled that four-alarm henka on him not so long ago. Why was that okay - just because it was what the fans wanted to see? That's no basis by which to judge whether a yokozuna is "disgracing" the rank, but the furor about Kakuryu seems to come from exactly the same place.

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Tochinoshin is certainly one of the most exciting guys to watch for me. Straight on, no nonsense, sheer power belt-fights. Always so satisfying to watch, although I also enjoy the furious, ultra energy fights of guys like Yoshikaze just as much. There's just one thing that makes me think about Tochinoshin's fighting style: I just wonder how much the attempted tsuridashis will affect his back and knees. I hope he has a long and successful career.

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I guess that's the end of Chokiozan's Ozeki run? I'm thinking he would need a zensho in November to still get it, correct? I'm wondering how bad that loss to Ichinojo shook him up? He went downhill from that point.

I'm pretty sure Tochinoshin will get 10-5, I'm wondering if he has enough "go" to start a run for Ozeki? I would not complain one bit.

Toch hasn't done good against the Ozeki's and Yokozuna's:

vs Kak 1-15

vs Harumafuji 5-15

vs Hakuho 0-19

vs Kise 5-12

vs Koto 4-17

vs Teruno 0-3

vs Goeido 4-10

As much as I like him, he's not getting promoted until he starts performing better against them. Even the weakest current Ozeki, Goeido, has better records against them.

Would that make him the Perenial "Lower Sanyaku Rat" just hanging in till his body falls apart?

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Isn't all the other stuff you described also part of how the Kyokai defines hinkaku? That the yokozuna would bring no disgrace to his title either on or off the dohyo?

But there's no "hinkaku bucket" where all of a yokozuna's misdeeds are assigned a value and collected, and when the bucket is full he gets retired. Bad sumo may be a hinkaku issue (I personally disagree with that), but it just can't be equated to other hinkaku issues the way some people were trying to do up-thread. That goes for all such issues actually...people try to argue along the lines of (hypothetical here) "what's worse, Asashoryu breaking the rear-view mirror of a car without witnesses, or Hakuho shoving Ichinojo in front of millions watching on TV", but there's just no point in doing that. Times are different, circumstances are different, the people in charge are different.

Hinkaku isn't a binary "that's good / that's bad" thing, there's no prescribed list of dos and don'ts for yokozuna. Everybody thought Kisenosato had it coming when Hakuho pulled that four-alarm henka on him not so long ago. Why was that okay - just because it was what the fans wanted to see? That's no basis by which to judge whether a yokozuna is "disgracing" the rank, but the furor about Kakuryu seems to come from exactly the same place.

Seconded. And my point about Asashoryu in particular was that the definition of "honorable behavior" - to use a different phrase - is rather a rubber band than a diamond. Depending on what suits who. Cui bono, cui bono...

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Isn't all the other stuff you described also part of how the Kyokai defines hinkaku? That the yokozuna would bring no disgrace to his title either on or off the dohyo?

But there's no "hinkaku bucket" where all of a yokozuna's misdeeds are assigned a value and collected, and when the bucket is full he gets retired. Bad sumo may be a hinkaku issue (I personally disagree with that), but it just can't be equated to other hinkaku issues the way some people were trying to do up-thread. That goes for all such issues actually...people try to argue along the lines of (hypothetical here) "what's worse, Asashoryu breaking the rear-view mirror of a car without witnesses, or Hakuho shoving Ichinojo in front of millions watching on TV", but there's just no point in doing that. Times are different, circumstances are different, the people in charge are different.

Hinkaku isn't a binary "that's good / that's bad" thing, there's no prescribed list of dos and don'ts for yokozuna. Everybody thought Kisenosato had it coming when Hakuho pulled that four-alarm henka on him not so long ago. Why was that okay - just because it was what the fans wanted to see? That's no basis by which to judge whether a yokozuna is "disgracing" the rank, but the furor about Kakuryu seems to come from exactly the same place.

Seconded. And my point about Asashoryu in particular was that the definition of "honorable behavior" - to use a different phrase - is rather a rubber band than a diamond. Depending on what suits who. Cui bono, cui bono...

I absolutely agree -- everything is always relative to the person, the situation, the past and so on and so forth. Indeed, ultimately it comes down to the collective perception of both the fans and the Kyokai -- though the Kyokai might have a bigger say in that matter. I think in the end for all the talk about hinkaku that the Kyokai talks, there is actually a very decent amount of leeway built in there. I don't quite agree that bad sumo shouldn't be a part of what constitutes a judgment of "no hinkaku" -- but then again, a rikishi with bad sumo generally won't become a yokozuna anyway. That's why bad sumo by a yokozuna sticks out even more. Though what exactly constitutes bad sumo is again, in the eyes of the beholder.

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The thing I dislike most about henkas? All of the wailing and gnashing of teeth that follows. Would I prefer to see a straight up scrap over a henka? Of course. But I just don't get all the crying about it.

I remember Ichinojo pulled a henka on Kakuryu a few basho back. It sucked, but it worked. And I doubt he'll be able to get away with it again. Remember when Terunofuji henka'd Kotoshogiku awhile back? Well the Geekster paid him back last basho.

And although he's gotten better, Kisenosato has a bit of a history of dicking around at the tachi ai and sometimes he gets punished for it. It's all part of the game.

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Great bout between Shohozan and Nishikigi! Two matta and then a loooong and interesting contest between the two.

I also enjoyed the Kyokutaisei vs Toyohibiki clash. Kyo's low, attacking style reminds me of Amuuru at times.

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Why is there so much hate for Kisenosato? He shows up, never gets hurt, has averaged at least 10 wins as Ozeki for almost 4 years now, and employs textbook sumo. Does he have off-the-dohyo problems?

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Why is there so much hate for Kisenosato? He shows up, never gets hurt, has averaged at least 10 wins as Ozeki for almost 4 years now, and employs textbook sumo. Does he have off-the-dohyo problems?

Could it be the fact that there has been alot of expectation for him to make the move to yokozuna? He spent the better part of 2O13 on a perpetual run, yet could never close the deal. In life, when one fails to live up to expectations, people will inevitably start to disdain the individual.

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the Kyokai should urge Kakaryu to retire...before he disgraces the Yokozuna rank even more

Then when is Hakuho's retirement ceremony?

(this is not the only time he's done this)

Edited by Fukurou
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Hakuho likely felt disrespected by Kisenosato's tachi-ai antics. He was visibly annoyed. So punishment was delivered.

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Hakuho likely felt disrespected by Kisenosato's tachi-ai antics. He was visibly annoyed. So punishment was delivered.

Well don't make Kise so mad he brings his tiger...

tumblr_nvakw3FYh91tumgvbo1_1280.jpgArt by Ooosirobosiooo

Edited by 808morgan
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the Kyokai should urge Kakaryu to retire...before he disgraces the Yokozuna rank even more

Then when is Hakuho's retirement ceremony?

"video link"

(this is not the only time he's done this)

Yep.... I know he did it against Asashoryu.

I even remember Chiyonofuji moving to the side as well at least one time toward the end of his career.

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the Kyokai should urge Kakaryu to retire...before he disgraces the Yokozuna rank even more

Then when is Hakuho's retirement ceremony?

(this is not the only time he's done this)

I watched this live and I must tell that was one one my favorites ever. Kisenosato have what he deserved - a lesson for life from a infinite better rikishi.

(my guilty pleasure: Ama x Goeido)

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Yep.... I know he did it against Asashoryu.

I even remember Chiyonofuji moving to the side as well at least one time toward the end of his career.

On the subject of Henkas lets bring it closer to now,how high does the respect go for Takanohana in his prime but who remembers the classic henka on Chiyotaikai at his careers end.....

I do,I loved it Taikai was nearly out of the arena before he noticed......

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the Kyokai should urge Kakaryu to retire...before he disgraces the Yokozuna rank even more

Then when is Hakuho's retirement ceremony?

(this is not the only time he's done this)

My only regret is that I can give this post just one like.

Two Mattas and he touches Hakuho both times? Quite disrespectful and deserving of such a beautiful henka.

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Honestly I think kakuryu deserved that win. While his henka attempt at the beginning wasn't yokuzuna like, his sudden reversal was pretty amazing!

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Why is there so much hate for Kisenosato? He shows up, never gets hurt, has averaged at least 10 wins as Ozeki for almost 4 years now, and employs textbook sumo. Does he have off-the-dohyo problems?

He was extremely young when he made it to Makuuchi, getting there from the bottom as a 15-year-old in 16 Ozumo basho. Hakuho also started at 15 a year previously and took an additional three tournaments despite being 4 months older than Kisenosato was upon joining (Kise's 16 months younger overall). I imagine it was reasonably expected that he would be the next Takanohana, at very least a Yokozuna. But he stubbornly refuses to win the matches he needs to in order to get that promotion despite being nearly on par with the weaker two Yokozuna now. There are plenty of Japanese who do not like the fact that there are 3 Mongolians there now (with another maybe on the way), but not the Japanese Kisenosato.

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