The Original "If there were no..." In this case - Asashoryu

[Hinerikeri 4]

I posted this several years ago on some forum, prolly the old mailing list. But since someone else posted an "If there was no Hakuho" I thought I would post this....enjoy!

Just for fun...If there were no Asashoryu. This is how

I see it and please take it with a grain of salt.

21 new yusho winners - here is a synopsis of what I

was able to come up with.

1) Only 1 new yokozuna - Kaio

2) Hakuho becomes yokozuna much sooner

3) Hakuho wins 5 more yusho - 10 total

4) Kaio wins 3 more yusho - 8 total

5) Kotomitsuki wins 3 more yusho - 4 total

6) Kotooshu wins 3 yusho total

7) Chiyotaikai wins 2 more yusho - 5 total

8) Single yusho winners are: Takanowaka, Wakanosato,

Hokutoriki, Miyabiyama & Aminishiki

Starting with Asashoryu's 1st Yusho

Basho - Winner

Comments

2002 Kyushu - Takanowaka

Ranked at Komusubi he legitimately faced all the top

rankers

2003 Hatsu - Wakanosato

Actually 3 tied at 11-4 - Tochinonada, Dejima were

also 11-4. Both Deijima and Waka lost to Asashoryu so

it is very possible that they could have gone 12-3 and

IMHO Waka was probably the strongest this Basho ranked

at K1w.

2003 Haru - Chiyotaikai

He won this one anyway

2003 Natsu - Kaio

Actually tied with Aminishiki record-wise, certainly

the Koykai would have made it tougher on Aminishiki.

Chiyotaikai and Kyokutenho both lost to Asa which

could possibly have brought their records up 11-4 like

Kaio, however Kaio did it legit, so Kaio gets the

yusho.

2003 Nagoya - Kaio

Kaio wins the yusho with with or without Asashoryu and

promotion to Yokozuna.

2003 Aki - Chiyotaikai

Chiyotaikai lost to Asashoryu,so it's possible that he

could have gone 12-3. My gut tells me that Iwakiyama &

Kotomitsuki would not have had as good of a record had

they been ranked in the joi-jin. So Chiyo gets the

Yusho.

2003 Kyushu - Tochiazuma

Tochiazuma won the yusho anyway.

2004 Hatsu - Kotomitsuki

Not much to argue here. Koto lost to Asashoryu and was

already 1 win better than anyone else.

2004 Haru - Kaio

Kaio, Chiyotaikai & Asasekiryu had the same record.

Kaio & Chiyo both lost to Asa and Sekiryu had an

easier torikumi so it came down to Kaio or Chiyo. Kaio

won their match during the basho and had a better

head-to-head record at the time, yusho to Kaio.

2004 Natsu - Hokutoriki

Again not much to debate. Hoku had the 2nd best record

and lost to Asashoryu during the Basho and in the

play-off.

2004 Nagoya - Miyabiyama

Miya lost to Asashoryu and was one better than anyone

else. The only contention here could be that if Miya

lost his replacement match for Asa, he would be tied

with Kaio for best record. Not going to go there, Miya

wins the yusho.

2004 Aki - Kaio

Kaio won this yusho on his own anyway.

2004 Kyushu - Hakuho

Kaio & Hakuho both lost to Asa so it comes down to

head-to-head between the two. Hakuho won their match

during the Basho and evened up their record at 1-1.

Tough to call but Hakuho gets the nod due to the win

against Kaio.

2005 Hatsu - Hakuho

Hakuho becomes Yokozuna in a play-off with Tochiazuma.

Equal records and losses to Asa took this one to the

play-off. Hakuho won their match and dominated their

overall record 3-0 up to this point. Wow!

2005 Haru - Kaio

This one could be debated. Tamanoshima clearly with

the 2nd best record would have been matched up against

2-4 Sanyaku rikishi if Asa was not around. I don't

think his record would be as good. It would only take

1 or 2 losses to end up in a play-off with Kaio. He

was two ahead, but Kaio's loss to Asashoryu could have

made him one better. Play-off or even an outright

yusho to Kaio.

2005 Natsu - Kotomitsuki

One better than Tochiazuma, Asashoryu's victories over

both Koto & Tochi do nothing to change the outcome.

2005 Nagoya - Kotooshu

This goes to the play-off as well. Koto beat Asa and

Wakanosato lost to Asa. Waka possible extra win ties

him with Koto but he's possible loss also gives the

yusho to Koto.

2005 Aki - Kotooshu

Pretty simple here. Koto went to a play-off with Asa &

no other rikishi even lose. I don't think Koto would

have been promoted to Ozeki at this point so his 2

consecutive yusho would not qualify him to become

Yokozuna.

2005 Kyushu - Chiyotaikai

Chiyo lost to Asa so his record is more than likely 1

better than Kotooshu who did beat Asa with no

possibility of having a better record. Here's where

the debate could start. Having won the previous 2

basho, would a jun-yusho be enough for promotion to

yokozuna? Ooh-la-la!!!!

2006 Hatsu - Tochiazuma

He won the yusho anyway.

2006 Haru - Hakuho

Asa beat both so the records have no bearing on the

yusho. Hakuho was 1 better than Tochi.

2006 Natsu - Hakuho

Hakuho won this one on his own.

2006 Nagoya - Hakuho

Not even close, Hakuho by a mile.

2006 Aki - Aminishiki

Aminishiki had the harder way to go in this kettei-sen

between heya-mates. Ama had a tough schedule towards

the end, but in the end I give the yusho to Aminishiki

for the quality of wins and tougher schedule.

2006 Kyushu - Kotooshu

Homasho has the 2nd best record. If Asashoryu hadn't

have been there, Homasho would ultimately have faced

more Sanyaku rikishi as he would have been the sole

leader on day 10. He lost to the only Sanyaku he faced

and I believe he wouldn't have been 12-3. Soooo, that

leaves Kotooshu, Tochiazuma, Kaio, Kotoshogiku,

Dejima, Kyokutenho, Baruto, Takamisakari & Asasekiryu

all at 10-5. Strength of schedule rules out everybody

from Kyokutenho and below on the Banzuke. Asashoryu

beat everybody except Dejima (which he did not face

which eliminates him). Keeping as simple as possible,

and based on Head-to-Head records Kotooshu would be

the one left holding the Emperor's Cup.

2007 Hatsu - Hakuho

This was another tough one. Again as with last basho,

we have a lower raker that I don't think would have

had the same record if they would have faced more

Sanyaku rikishi than they would have if Asashoryu wqs

not there. In the end it came down to Chiyotaikai, Ama

& Hakuho. The yokozuna comes out on top of the

kettei-sen.

2007 Haru - Hakuho

Hakuho won this one outright anyway.

2007 Natsu - Hakuho

Zensho yusho all on his own.

2007 Nagoya - Kotomitsiki

Clearly 2nd best in this basho

2007 Aki - Hakuho

Asashoryu's absence does nothing to change the outcome

here.

2007 Kyushu - Hakuho

Asashoryu's absence does nothing to change the outcome

here.

Hinerikeri

[Treblemaker 254]

That's pretty good work. And it's an interesting thought.

Now, just for the fun of it, let's see if you can do the math if there was never a Mongolian invasion! Not one. Not even with the Hawaiian contingent.

Now THAT would be interesting.

I'm sure it happened in a parallel universe.

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

Well, speaking of Hawaii's contingent, There must be a mirror-universe where Konishiki made Yokozuna in 1992.

And for that matter, a place where Kitao never got promoted.

2 past events, that would have ripples had they gone differently.

[Asashosakari 16,827]

Why, what would have been different if Konishiki had been promoted? (Other than that the yokozuna count would be higher.) It wouldn't have prevented his body from falling apart shortly after, and he'd probably have had an Onokuni-like yokozuna career at best. And publicity-wise, Akebono's promotion only a year later did everything a Konishiki promotion would have done. If anything was affected by it, I'd say Akebono's career probably profited, both from being "the first", as well as from not having to suffer comparisons to a likely failed Konishiki yokozuna stint. But even that wouldn't have made a huge difference.

Futahaguro's dismissal screwed up the promotion standards for 20 years, which wouldn't have happened if he'd been only an ozeki, or never got himself dumped altogether. But ironically it didn't prevent anybody except maybe Konishiki from eventually getting promoted. (And I suspect they would have found some justification to block Konishiki anyway, even without "back-to-back yusho" in the picture.)

Edited August 15, 2015 by Asashosakari

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

Why, what would have been different if Konishiki had been promoted? (Other than that the yokozuna count would be higher.) It wouldn't have prevented his body from falling apart shortly after, and he'd probably have had an Onokuni-like yokozuna career at best. And publicity-wise, Akebono's promotion only a year later did everything a Konishiki promotion would have done. If anything was affected by it, I'd say Akebono's career probably profited, both from being "the first", as well as from not having to suffer comparisons to a likely failed Konishiki yokozuna stint. But even that wouldn't have made a huge difference.

Futahaguro's dismissal screwed up the promotion standards for 20 years, which wouldn't have happened if he'd been only an ozeki, or never got himself dumped altogether. But ironically it didn't prevent anybody except maybe Konishiki from eventually getting promoted. (And I suspect they would have found some justification to block Konishiki anyway, even without "back-to-back yusho" in the picture.)

These are actually the ripples I was alluding to. You hit it right on the head. I can imagine that Ozeki Kitao would continue to perform to standard, possibly winning a yusho somewhere down the road, While the "63rd Yokozuna" Konishiki would become the possible embarrassment, there by tightening promotion criteria. The other ripple being that instead of being an Ozeki that fought on to the end, Konishiki would be this universes version of Futahaguro.

-As a side note, perhaps the butterflies are large enough to give us a Yokozuna Kaio in 200X?

[Hinerikeri 4]

Futahaguro's dismissal screwed up the promotion standards for 20 years, which wouldn't have happened if he'd been only an ozeki, or never got himself dumped altogether. But ironically it didn't prevent anybody except maybe Konishiki from eventually getting promoted. (And I suspect they would have found some justification to block Konishiki anyway, even without "back-to-back yusho" in the picture.)

I disagree slightly on the no effect other than Konishiki...I believe Asashifuji would have been promoted sooner....but again as I said....that is only a slight difference.

[Kasutera 258]

This is like the sumo equivalent of the Elseworlds and What If comics. I've got one: What if all the Mongolians were from Georgia and vice-versa? Would we see Yokozuna Gagamaru and Tochinoshin?

Edited August 16, 2015 by Kasutera

[PawnSums 59]

On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2015 at 23:32, Kasutera said:

This is like the sumo equivalent of the Elseworlds and What If comics. I've got one: What if all the Mongolians were from Georgia and vice-versa? Would we see Yokozuna Gagamaru and Tochinoshin?

No, we would see Georgian Yokozunas.

[just_some_guy 190]

11 hours ago, PawnSums said:

No, we would see Georgian Yokozunas.

That's what he said. Gagamaru and Tochinoshin are Georgians.

[Bumpkin 438]

1 hour ago, just_some_guy said:

That's what he said. Gagamaru and Tochinoshin are Georgians.

You miss the point. Neither Gagamaru or Tochinoshin would be Yokozunas. Other Georgians would be Yokozuna.

[RabidJohn 1,229]

I've often wondered of the 'opposite': what if Asashoryu hadn't been such a bad boy and seen out his potential time as a yokozuna?

He could probably have done another 3 years before a 'natural' intai, and had at least 5 yusho in that time. They would probably have been Hakuho's yusho he was 'stealing', meaning Hak would now be equal with Taiho. It's even conceivable that Hak could still be chasing Asa's yusho record...

[Dapeng 231]

22 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

I've often wondered of the 'opposite': what if Asashoryu hadn't been such a bad boy and seen out his potential time as a yokozuna?

He could probably have done another 3 years before a 'natural' intai, and had at least 5 yusho in that time. They would probably have been Hakuho's yusho he was 'stealing', meaning Hak would now be equal with Taiho. It's even conceivable that Hak could still be chasing Asa's yusho record...

Asa was depicted as a bad boy and he had to go, or else with two dominant yokozuna on one dohyo, there's no chance for other rikishi, esp. Japan-borns.  

[Benevolance 2,265]

And Asa's bar fight during the honbasho was staged by ex-Takatoriki as a puro-resu stunt. :)

[ryafuji 758]

30 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

Asa was depicted as a bad boy and he had to go, or else with two dominant yokozuna on one dohyo, there's no chance for other rikishi, esp. Japan-borns.  

Not sure about that... I think the Kyokai would have liked to preferred to have two strong yokozuna rather than just one, even if they were both Mongolian. Yokozuna rivalries bring media attention and high TV ratings and  Asa and Hakuho had some great matches from 2007 to 2010. For me it's a great shame that it was cut short. Asa was still only 29 when he was kicked out - he could have gone on for another couple of years at least.

[Asashosakari 16,827]

For what it's worth, I'm a bit doubtful that Asashoryu would have been content playing second fiddle to Hakuho for too long. The disparity between them had already become quite pronounced by the time of his forced exit, and given what we now know about what Hakuho developed into right afterwards, I don't think Asashoryu would have been much more than a Harumafuji with somewhat better W-L's in those years.

[Harry 67]

I agree, I don't think Asashoryuu was going to stick around for much longer anyway. If he'd stuck around, a big if, then I think 1-2 yushos were those most he had. He wasn't that old but already Hakuho was dominating and this took Asashoryuu's heart out of it. He was already looking forward to other things.

[Benevolance 2,265]

2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

For what it's worth, I'm a bit doubtful that Asashoryu would have been content playing second fiddle to Hakuho for too long. The disparity between them had already become quite pronounced by the time of his forced exit, and given what we now know about what Hakuho developed into right afterwards, I don't think Asashoryu would have been much more than a Harumafuji with somewhat better W-L's in those years.

I was unsure I was convinced of that, but I thought on it some more and now I'm not as sure I was as wholly unconvinced as I thought I was. Hakuho *is* kind of good at sumo and Asashoryu is a bit of an egoist. And by exiting how and when he did, he can still take pot shots at Hakuho and claim he was the better sportsman on Twitter. :)