Basho Talk - Nagoya 2015 +++ Spoiler alert! +++

[dingo 1,479]

I think it's been mentioned many times that putting one's hand(s) down is not really a rule -- the rikishi only need to move in sync during the tachiai, nothing else. What makes it confusing is that sometimes the shinpan do demand rikishi to put their hands down, but that's more in order to get the rikishi synchronized, not for touching the dohyo as a principle.

It actually is a rule, and the gyoji tells them to get their hands down because it IS the rule. It is the most unenforced rule in the Universe for sure, but it is the rule. If moving in sync was all that was needed, the gyoji would be shouting at them to "move in sync!" Listen closely whenever there is a matta as the head judge will invariably admonish one party for not getting both hands down. Mattas, when called, are due to one party obviously jumping the gun, or because one party visibly does not have his hands down. There of course is that third reason, which is when nobody in his right mind has the foggiest idea why the $%^^&* it was called, except for the head shinpan.

I stand corrected. But it truly is the most unenforced rule in the universe...

[Jakusotsu 6,394]

[808morgan 814]

That was pretty awesome. I'm glad Ichi showed up. I want to see a replay for Takarafuji.

[Kasutera 258]

When Kintamayama pointed out at the end of today's videos that all the undefeated rikishi are Mongolians, I can't help but imagine the spirit of Kublai Khan going "All we had do to was wait 800 years, but we did it."

[Highway 46]

Man we're heading for one super three way race. All three contenders look as solid as they've ever been. Just a shame Hara has to miss the party too.

I'm going to make the prediction that Kotoshogiku will find some way out of this. He looked good today, if he can get a momentum going, he can get 8 wins.

[kosomo 32]

Is it just me or does Mitakeumi remind you of a younger Endo?

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

Ichinojo is really looking terrible. ... It seems as though he's not really putting in the work to continuously improve that Terunofuji clearly has.

Agree with the first, but disagree with the second. In fact, I'm pretty much optimistic for Ichinojo.

Previously, in amateur sumo and Makushita+Juryo it was enough to just stand there mighty. For the top of Ozumo, this is not enough anymore. Initially, he got some success with freak Sumo, but that is not to last. Top Rikishi can easily adapt.

Now he's thinking, and he is trying out things. In the bouts so far this Basho, he is just doing basic and plain Sumo technique. It doesn't work out well, he is not used to it. He is not really in the flow. But still I believe, this is the right path for a more solid technique that goes along well with his size and his sheer power. It doesn't quite come together now, it looks horrible yet. But in a few Bashos in which we see a struggling Ichinojo in and out of Jo'i, a new, more complete Rikishi will emerge, which will then be very hard to defeat.

Terunofuji had his hard time, struggling in Mid-Makushita. Needed a year to get over it. In the end, this difficult year seemed to be the key for his recent success.

Couldnt have said it better myself. I'm sticking with Ichinojo through the UP's and DOWN's.The GREAT Chiyonofuji took years to hit his stride, but when he did, WOW. Asahifuji, Musashimaru, and recently, Harumafuji and Kakuryu are all examples. I'll be the first to admit that he looks a bit out of it so far, but today's win over Goeido, ironically, with the same way he lost last match, is proof that Ichinojo can and will adapt and overcome.

GO ICHINOJO!!! You can do it!!!

[sekitori 492]

For Kyokutenho, he's had these before, but he seriously needs to get something going if he wants to stay in Makuuchi for September. I think he can barely stay in with a 5-10 but that would depend on those around him in the lower maegashira and the people in juryo. A 6-9 he can definitely stay but if he doesn't start winning it's going to look bleak.

He's now 1-4. There seems to be some sort of feeling that a 5-10 record, depending on the records of other rikishis, could possibly drop him out of makunouchi. I believe that with a 5-10, the NSK will definitely keep him in the top division. I have two reasons for this. First, it's rare to demote a rikishi to a rank lower than the difference between losses and wins. An M11 rikishi with a 5-10 record may possibly be demoted M16, but not lower. But more importantly, sumo fans love the fact that an almost 41 year old rikishi is still active at the highest level. They want to see him continue in makuouchi for as long as possible. If the ranking committee decides, based on a 5-10 record, to demote him to juryo just before his 41st birthday and possibly end his career because they think someone deserves a makunouchi ranking more, you are going to hear an enormous public outcry. Sumo has regained much of its popularity recently and such a stupid action by the NSK which has done much to improve its PR among fans, would go a long way toward destroying some of its credibility. If they care to alienate loyal sumo fans, choosing to demote Kyokutenho to juryo when he could have stayed in makunouchi would be an ideal way to do it. :-|

Edited July 17, 2015 by sekitori

[Asashosakari 20,265]

He's now 1-4. There seems to be some sort of feeling that a 5-10 record, depending on the records of other rikishis, could possibly drop him out of makunouchi. I believe that with a 5-10, the NSK will definitely keep him in the top division.

If his spot is needed, he goes. If it's not needed, he might stay. The only question is where the needed/not-needed line is. They're not going to shaft the likes of a J2w 9-6, that's for sure.

First, it's rare to demote a rikishi to a rank lower than the difference between losses and wins. An M11 rikishi with a 5-10 record may possibly be demoted M16, but not lower. But more importantly, sumo fans love the fact that an almost 41 year old rikishi is still active at the highest level. They want to see him continue in makuouchi for as long as possible. If the ranking committee decides, based on a 5-10 record, to demote him to juryo just before his 41st birthday and possibly end his career because they think someone deserves a makunouchi ranking more, you are going to hear an enormous public outcry.

There would be little to no such outcry simply because the overwhelming majority of fans doesn't care about banzuke movements (which won't become apparent for another 6 weeks anyway), and you're ignoring the by far most likely possibility, namely that he simply retires on senshuraku (or earlier) if he posts his 10th loss, and makes the banzuke-making session irrelevant.

Edit: And re-reading the part of your post I didn't quote, I'm flabbergasted that somebody actually thinks that "not blatantly playing favourites" would equate to "destroying some of its credibility". I'm just trying to imagine the same claim being made about, say, Kisenosato and a possible undeserved yokozuna promotion and...nope, does not compute.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Asashosakari

[bettega 433]

Man we're heading for one super three way race. All three contenders look as solid as they've ever been. Just a shame Hara has to miss the party too.

I'm going to make the prediction that Kotoshogiku will find some way out of this. He looked good today, if he can get a momentum going, he can get 8 wins.

I don't know. I think we'll have another S next basho, and I really like Giku :| He's been lacking the raw power from the bashos before the big peitoral contusion

(and I'm good with future telling - look my posts and topics :-D Goeido Ozeki, Kakuryu Yokozuna, Terunofuji (Reading book...) (Laughing...))

[sekitori 492]

I still believe that a 5-10 record will keep Kyokutenho in makunouchi. Hopefully, he'll go 6-9 and any doubts about it will be gone.

Edited July 17, 2015 by sekitori

[Sumozumo 240]

Ramadan ended today... so we can see how that affected his sumo.

I have a feeling that a broken shoulder affects sumo way more than Ramadan.

[808morgan 814]

Boom

[krindel 688]

He's now 1-4. There seems to be some sort of feeling that a 5-10 record, depending on the records of other rikishis, could possibly drop him out of makunouchi. I believe that with a 5-10, the NSK will definitely keep him in the top division. I have two reasons for this. First, it's rare to demote a rikishi to a rank lower than the difference between losses and wins. An M11 rikishi with a 5-10 record may possibly be demoted M16, but not lower. But more importantly, sumo fans love the fact that an almost 41 year old rikishi is still active at the highest level. They want to see him continue in makuouchi for as long as possible. If the ranking committee decides, based on a 5-10 record, to demote him to juryo just before his 41st birthday and possibly end his career because they think someone deserves a makunouchi ranking more, you are going to hear an enormous public outcry. Sumo has regained much of its popularity recently and such a stupid action by the NSK which has done much to improve its PR among fans, would go a long way toward destroying some of its credibility. If they care to alienate loyal sumo fans, choosing to demote Kyokutenho to juryo when he could have stayed in makunouchi would be an ideal way to do it. :-|

I am as big a fan of Kyokutenho's as any, and would love to see him fight on for as long as his feet can hold him. What I definitely don't want to see is him hanging on to makuuchi well beyond his expiration date, with other rikishi handing him wins out of respect for the "old guy" and the NSK taking forced decisions in the banzuke making process to keep him around for just another basho or two.

He has had an amazing career, one that he can definitely look back on with pride. He is a model of perseverance for younger rikishi, and if he has to be demoted, I'd really really prefer to see him go with his head held up high rather than see him stay "for the popularity of the sport". Its a favor he doesn't need, and I agree with Asashosakari, if he is demotable on senshuraku, I would hope he will just take a bow, make an appointment with a pair of scissors and exit stage left to the applause he deserves.

[dingo 1,479]

He's now 1-4. There seems to be some sort of feeling that a 5-10 record, depending on the records of other rikishis, could possibly drop him out of makunouchi. I believe that with a 5-10, the NSK will definitely keep him in the top division.

If his spot is needed, he goes. If it's not needed, he might stay. The only question is where the needed/not-needed line is. They're not going to shaft the likes of a J2w 9-6, that's for sure.

Yet just on the last banzuke a 9-6 M1w got shafted, even though adding a K2 slot would have been a very easy solution and not hurt anyone. I don't know the reason for that. Some people here have been implying that Tochinoshin may be seen in an unfavourable light by some oyakata after taking the time for surgery and not gambarizing. I personally don't know what to believe, but the fact is that a very easy promotion was skipped out of something -- laziness, dislike, convenience, but not with a real reason.

[Jakusotsu 6,394]

Yet just on the last banzuke a 9-6 M1w got shafted, even though adding a K2 slot would have been a very easy solution and not hurt anyone.

Apart from comparing apples and oranges here, an extra sanyaku slot would have hurt the wallet of the NSK.

[Asashosakari 20,265]

I am as big a fan of Kyokutenho's as any, and would love to see him fight on for as long as his feet can hold him. What I definitely don't want to see is him hanging on to makuuchi well beyond his expiration date, with other rikishi handing him wins out of respect for the "old guy" and the NSK taking forced decisions in the banzuke making process to keep him around for just another basho or two.

And besides, there's exactly zero responsibility by the NSK here to begin with. There's no official or unofficial expectation that rikishi with Kyokutenho's career profile should avoid competing in juryo, so if he decides to not do it, then that's just that, his decision. The whole notion that the Kyokai would be "ending his career" (the implication being that it's involuntary) if they dared to demote him is silly in the extreme.

[inhashi 2,363]

Endo had his fingers curled around the mawashi, hanging on for dear life as Tokitenku had his toes curled around the tawara, hanging on for dear life. (Laughing...)

[Asashosakari 20,265]

Yet just on the last banzuke a 9-6 M1w got shafted, even though adding a K2 slot would have been a very easy solution and not hurt anyone.

Apart from comparing apples and oranges here, an extra sanyaku slot would have hurt the wallet of the NSK.

And it probably would have sent Takanoiwa to juryo.

[luispereira 383]

kakuryu is looking very nice!

[luispereira 383]

terunofuji is also looking very nice...I wonder if he rises fast to become yokozuna...4 yokos? "geez louise" ...

[WAKATAKE 2,759]

Homarenishiki lost today, making his record 1-2. In Juryo, Mitakeumi looking good for starting the basho at 6-0. This is the current lead for Juryo. Kotoyuki's reaction to losing his bout with Tokitenku was amusing, he for sure thought there was going to be a monoii. Wakanosato and Kyokutenho continue to struggle as both men are 1-5. Could we be seeing the retirement of two veterans in one basho? Pharaoh couldn't capitalize after getting off Ramadan, perhaps he has to get used to eating again? Tochiozan bounces back from losing to Terunofuji yesterday and stays 5-1, which is better than his Japanese ozeki counterparts. And the three Mongolians keep their leads at the top of the division. Hakuho has officially passed Kyokutenho on the all time wins list now.

[dingo 1,479]

Yet just on the last banzuke a 9-6 M1w got shafted, even though adding a K2 slot would have been a very easy solution and not hurt anyone.

Apart from comparing apples and oranges here, an extra sanyaku slot would have hurt the wallet of the NSK.

Yeah but I was trying to make the point that whether a spot is needed or not as Asashosakari was saying, is also entirely subjective, both from our point of view as well as the NSK's. At M1w 9-6, I would've said that a spot was needed, yet it didn't appear. So a Makuuchi spot from J2w 9-6, like the example brought above, would also be subjective and not certainly needed (there's plenty of examples for that), especially if it would mean an overdemotion of someone in Makuuchi.

[dingo 1,479]

Oh and it seems like Tochinoshin missed his chance for sanyakuhood with that bit of bad banzuke luck, as I don't see him having a shot at it from a 1-5 score.

[Asashosakari 20,265]

Yeah but I was trying to make the point that whether a spot is needed or not as Asashosakari was saying, is also entirely subjective, both from our point of view as well as the NSK's. At M1w 9-6, I would've said that a spot was needed, yet it didn't appear. So a Makuuchi spot from J2w 9-6, like the example brought above, would also be subjective and not certainly needed (there's plenty of examples for that), especially if it would mean an overdemotion of someone in Makuuchi.

That's where the apples-and-oranges part comes in. They're a lot more liberal when it comes to the maegashira/juryo border than at sanyaku/maegashira. Heck, they just dropped Chiyootori with a rank/record combination that I would consider undroppable during 95%+ of the modern era, and they did so in favour of a juryo rikishi who didn't even have a nominally promotable record.

The only thing that stops maegashira->juryo overdemotions from happening from often than they do is that there's usually not enough pressure from juryo. And that's the part of the equation that might save Kyokutenho (or anyone else), not "let's just shaft a promotable juryo rikishi".

Edit: Considering that 9 of the top 11 juryo rikishi are currently at least 3-3, I suspect this won't be a low-pressure tournament though.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Asashosakari