Gurowake

Trivia bits

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6 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

So, Takanohana's MK record was broken by the next Japanese Yokozuna?

I'm going to argue that being absent is not the same as being make-koshi. You can argue that Kisenosato holds the record for longest stretch on the makuuchi banzuke without achieving a kachi-koshi (true). We don't count Hakuho's end of career absences as make-koshis. 

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15 minutes ago, Sakura said:

I'm going to argue that being absent is not the same as being make-koshi. You can argue that Kisenosato holds the record for longest stretch on the makuuchi banzuke without achieving a kachi-koshi (true). We don't count Hakuho's end of career absences as make-koshis. 

Agree; long Yokozuna absence streaks are very different from make-koshi tournaments that drop someone down the banzuke, which is why my query focused on the latter. It's interesting that only 3 streaks of 7 make-koshi basho have happened in the six-basho era, all in the last few years, with one just ending and another "live" with a chance to extend it to 8.

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11 hours ago, Sakura said:

I'm going to argue that being absent is not the same as being make-koshi. You can argue that Kisenosato holds the record for longest stretch on the makuuchi banzuke without achieving a kachi-koshi (true). We don't count Hakuho's end of career absences as make-koshis. 

I don't feel competent to count anything as anything, and I would say (because of the special rules for Yokozuna) I agree with you.  However, I reacted to the premise stated above.  What struck me was the immense time between Japanese Yokozuna, and the similar codas to their careers.  It makes me feel more sympathetic toward Kakuryu.

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On 26/02/2022 at 05:12, Reonito said:

It's interesting that only 3 streaks of 7 make-koshi basho have happened in the six-basho era, all in the last few years, with one just ending and another "live" with a chance to extend it to 8.

For a large part of the 6-basho era there were 15 or fewer maegashira ranks and makekoshi tended to get treated with a lot less leniency than nowadays; the list gets a lot longer if streaks are allowed to continue on in juryo.

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On 26/12/2021 at 12:06, Chiyotasuke said:

Occurences of the same rank and side kept for 3 consecutive bashos while going MK in the first 2, since WWII:

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&columns=3&n_basho=3&shikona=Wakasugiyama,Kotoeko,Tobizaru&form1_rank=M&form1_wins=7&form2_rank=M&form2_wins=7

Aand another one: Terutsuyoshi keeps his M11w rank for Haru after going 7-8 twice.

This has happened twice in a row now

Edited by Chiyotasuke

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Basho with new Ozeki, Sekiwake and Komusubi since 1900:

Haru 2022
Aki 2014
Hatsu 2002
Haru 1994
Nagoya 1987*, Hatsu 1983
Natsu 1976, Kyushu 1970, Aki 1970
Nagoya 1961, Aki 1960
Kyushu 1959, Natsu 1957, Hatsu 1953
Aki 1945, Aki 1944, Haru 1943*
Haru 1937, Natsu 1932, Haru 1932, Natsu 1930
October 1927, Haru 1925, Natsu 1923*, Haru 1922
Natsu 1919, Haru 1915

Natsu 1909, Natsu 1905

* - with New Yokozuna too

(In Haru 2022 and Haru 1922, Waka* Atsu* was promoted to Sekiwake (Yawning...))

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As a perennial sekitori hope, Tochimaru has occupied all the ranks from ms10 to ms1, but ms6, some of them more than once (ms4 -  3 times, for instance). Has anyone been slotted in all the top ten ranks ?

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Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, shumitto said:

As a perennial sekitori hope, Tochimaru has occupied all the ranks from ms10 to ms1, but ms6, some of them more than once (ms4 -  3 times, for instance). Has anyone been slotted in all the top ten ranks ?

First I did this, then this. There seem to be quite a lot of rikishi. I only looked into the first few (Kotokanyu, Hakuryo, Kizenryu, Tochitenko have been ms10-ms1)

Edited by Chiyotasuke
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No M7 has achieved 13 wins since Hasegawa in 1967

12 wins have been achieved by M7s 20 times, including now twice by Takayasu. Condolences, although he'll look past that Trivia Bit if he wins a potential Playoff.

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2 hours ago, Hakumadashi said:

Condolences, although he'll look past that Trivia Bit if he wins a potential Playoff.

Nope, he won't. 

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On 02/03/2022 at 04:12, Chiyotasuke said:

Basho with new Ozeki, Sekiwake and Komusubi since 1900:

Haru 2022
Aki 2014
Hatsu 2002
Haru 1994
Nagoya 1987*, Hatsu 1983
Natsu 1976, ...

All the shin- Komusubi, Sekiwake and Ozeki in Haru basho have gone kachi-koshi. Last time this happened was in Natsu 1976.

Another similarity between these 2 basho to look at is the heya which the promotees belong to:

Ozeki Asahikuni and komusubi Hoshoryu - Tatsunami

Sekiwake Washuyama and ozeki Mitakeumi - Dewanoumi.

And Atamifuji and Kurosegawa, who was also shin-juryo, are of Isegahama, and ended their basho at 7-8. (2 different Isegahama-beya)

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In the 6-basho era, 50 yusho have been won by rikishi below the rank of ozeki. Thirteen of those have been since the start of 2018, way more than the ~4 expected by chance and more than in any one decade.

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In what has become my personal favorite trivia bit, Hokutofuji has continued his pattern of alternating makekoshi/kachikoshi. If we start him from Aki 2019, he's now up to 15 consecutive basho in this alternating pattern (excluding, of course, the cancelled basho).

Wonder what the record for this is.

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13 minutes ago, just_some_guy said:

In what has become my personal favorite trivia bit, Hokutofuji has continued his pattern of alternating makekoshi/kachikoshi. If we start him from Aki 2019, he's now up to 15 consecutive basho in this alternating pattern (excluding, of course, the cancelled basho).

Wonder what the record for this is.

I can offer this as a start:

https://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&n_basho=7&group_by=rikishi&having=8&form1_wins=mk&form2_wins=kk&form3_wins=mk&form4_wins=kk&form5_wins=mk&form6_wins=kk&form7_wins=mk&group_expand=on

I believe that shows Kirinji alternated MK and KK from at least 1981.09 to 1984.09, but you'll have to look further to see if anyone else with a large number of results for that query has them all consecutively (or rather, alternating basho, since the pattern searched for has to start with MK), as well as check the end points to see if it started or ended with consecutive KKs or MKs.

 

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14 hours ago, Gurowake said:

I can offer this as a start:

https://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&n_basho=7&group_by=rikishi&having=8&form1_wins=mk&form2_wins=kk&form3_wins=mk&form4_wins=kk&form5_wins=mk&form6_wins=kk&form7_wins=mk&group_expand=on

I believe that shows Kirinji alternated MK and KK from at least 1981.09 to 1984.09, but you'll have to look further to see if anyone else with a large number of results for that query has them all consecutively (or rather, alternating basho, since the pattern searched for has to start with MK), as well as check the end points to see if it started or ended with consecutive KKs or MKs.

 

Kirinji was allergic to Tokyo?

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14 hours ago, just_some_guy said:

Wonder what the record for this is.

28  Hananokuni (1988.05 - 1992.11)
22  Shotsukasa (1997.07 - 2001.01)
21  Kirinji (1981.07 - 1984.11)
19  Otsurugi (1979.07 - 1982.07)
19  Fukuda (1986.11 - 1989.11)
19  Kaneko (2009.03 - 2012.05)

Seven more at 18 (incl. Kyokudozan), and then it gets muddy (incl. the infamous Itai at 17).

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Posted (edited)

Bigger numbers than I expected for that particular 'achievement'. 28 basho? dang! For a guy who'd been demoted from juryo 4 times already and didn't make the top division until 28, Hananokuni actually had a good run in makuuchi though.

Incidentally, he was Chiyonofuji's 1000th career win.

Edited by Katooshu
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4 hours ago, Katooshu said:

Incidentally, he was Chiyonofuji's 1000th career win.

And also Chiyonofuji's 46th vanquished opponent in his unbeaten streak in 1988, breaking Taiho's postwar record of 45. Chiyo must have enjoyed facing him. 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Katooshu said:

Bigger numbers than I expected for that particular 'achievement'

Me too, it does make sense though. Once a rikishi has found his natural level in the banzuke this is presumably what, all things being equal, you would expect to happen (e.g. what a naive simulator might predict).

Especially if, like Hokutofuji, that level is on the cusp of the joi and he avoids serious injury.

The earlier part of Hananokuni's run was also around that "sweet spot", but impressively he managed to keep the pattern going after kyujo and dropping (presumably due to injury) all the way down to juryo.

For Hokutofuji it's a great 'achievement' in terms of consistency at least.

Edited by Octofuji
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1 hour ago, Octofuji said:

Me too, it does make sense though. Once a rikishi has found his natural level in the banzuke this is presumably what, all things being equal, you would expect to happen (e.g. what a naive simulator might predict).

Especially if, like Hokutofuji, that level is on the cusp of the joi and he avoids serious injury.

The earlier part of Hananokuni's run was also around that "sweet spot", but impressively he managed to keep the pattern going after kyujo and dropping (presumably due to injury) all the way down to juryo.

For Hokutofuji it's a great 'achievement' in terms of consistency at least.

I call this the  "spring theory" of banzuke movement.  For some period of a rikishi's career, he has an "equilibrium" rank: if he gets bumped up or bumped down , he returns to that rank.  Also, the correction depends on how far away from that rank he ends up: if he finds himself 6 ranks higher than equilibrium, the spring pulls him back harder, etc.  I first thought about this when looking at Takamiyama's career.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Yamanashi said:
12 hours ago, Octofuji said:

Me too, it does make sense though. Once a rikishi has found his natural level in the banzuke this is presumably what, all things being equal, you would expect to happen (e.g. what a naive simulator might predict).

Especially if, like Hokutofuji, that level is on the cusp of the joi and he avoids serious injury.

The earlier part of Hananokuni's run was also around that "sweet spot", but impressively he managed to keep the pattern going after kyujo and dropping (presumably due to injury) all the way down to juryo.

For Hokutofuji it's a great 'achievement' in terms of consistency at least.

I call this the  "spring theory" of banzuke movement.  For some period of a rikishi's career, he has an "equilibrium" rank: if he gets bumped up or bumped down , he returns to that rank.  Also, the correction depends on how far away from that rank he ends up: if he finds himself 6 ranks higher than equilibrium, the spring pulls him back harder, etc.  I first thought about this when looking at Takamiyama's career.

Not that I disagree with the spring theory, but a possible pair of reasons why it's so rare is both heartwarming and damning. On the one hand, the rikishi isn't suffering injury (or other performance-degrading factors, like age, or hangovers from being out all night and stressed about discovery :cough cough:) that would lower his equilibrium rank. On the other hand, the rikishi isn't advancing in skills that would enable him to raise his equilibrium rank either. It basically means Hokutofuji's sumo has stalled for more than 2 years now and he's unlikely to improve on his career high rank of komusubi.

The same could be said of several other rikishi, though, if one is less strict with needing to alternate MK and KK - Endō, Okinoumi, Daieishō all come to mind, although naturally their equilibrium ranks are at different places on the banzuke (and arguably Okinoumi is bracketing more than returning to his equilibrium rank, seeing as his basho scores tend to be more extreme than Hokutofuji's).

Edited by Seiyashi
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6 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Not that I disagree with the spring theory, but a possible pair of reasons why it's so rare is both heartwarming and damning. On the one hand, the rikishi isn't suffering injury (or other performance-degrading factors, like age, or hangovers from being out all night and stressed about discovery :cough cough:) that would lower his equilibrium rank. On the other hand, the rikishi isn't advancing in skills that would enable him to raise his equilibrium rank either. It basically means Hokutofuji's sumo has stalled for more than 2 years now and he's unlikely to improve on his career high rank of komusubi.

The same could be said of several other rikishi, though, if one is less strict with needing to alternate MK and KK - Endō, Okinoumi, Daieishō all come to mind, although naturally their equilibrium ranks are at different places on the banzuke (and arguably Okinoumi is bracketing more than returning to his equilibrium rank, seeing as his basho scores tend to be more extreme than Hokutofuji's).

I agree.  The eq. point is a temporary thing, though for a rikishi who's reached mid-career form it might last, say, five years.  The career trajectory of so many Maegashira mainstays is to enter and shoot up to K or S (15 of the current banzuke's 34 rikishi have a career high of O-S-K), then find their level.  Of course, if the Banzuke Committee has done their job, the talent gets better as you go up and worse as you go down the ranks; that's the "forcing function" that drives the spring.  If you do well and rise in the ranks, you get slapped back down by superior wrestlers; if you get over-demoted or have a bad basho, you end up down in the sticks where the competition isn't at your natural level ("In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is King.")

Hokutofuji seems to be a very good example of this.  I expect him to break through every basho, but maybe he's just a natural M3 rikishi while he still has the wheels, and a worn out spring after that.

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24 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

The eq. point is a temporary thing, though for a rikishi who's reached mid-career form it might last, say, five years.  The career trajectory of so many Maegashira mainstays is to enter and shoot up to K or S (15 of the current banzuke's 34 rikishi have a career high of O-S-K), then find their level. 

Tochinoshin is a classic M3W rikishi.  Throw out his one good year (2018), and every basho result has been easily predictable for many years.  He is not alone.  Most rikishiki have their level of competence.  That level can exist in any of the divisions.  It was the original source for the expression "Hit the Wall".

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6 hours ago, Asojima said:

Tochinoshin is a classic M3W rikishi.  Throw out his one good year (2018), and every basho result has been easily predictable for many years.  He is not alone.  Most rikishiki have their level of competence.  That level can exist in any of the divisions.  It was the original source for the expression "Hit the Wall".

A real test of the spring's strength: pulled down from M1 to Ms55, snapped back like a rubber band (incl. 4 yusho in a row), and back to the oscillations (until the annus mirabilis 2017.05 - 2018.05).

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