Trivia bits

[RabidJohn 1,855]

@JakusotsuHow did you manage to attribute Reonito's quote to me?

[Jakusotsu 6,049]

54 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

@JakusotsuHow did you manage to attribute Reonito's quote to me?

Oops - by highlighting that section in your post and using the "Quote" pop-up - sorry!

[ryafuji 815]

4 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

I always thought the difference being crashing outside (yori) or inside (abise) the dohyo, but what do I know...

Yes I believe that is the difference between the two.

[RabidJohn 1,855]

@ReonitoWell, that's 3 of us thinking along the same lines, and no one's popped in to say otherwise, so take from that what you will.

[Chiyotasuke 310]

Abi is the 4th man to get either jun-yusho or yusho on 2 consecutive basho at hiramaku rank. The 4 were 26-28 years old when they achieved it

[Jakusotsu 6,049]

45 minutes ago, Chiyotasuke said:

Abi is the 4th man to get either jun-yusho or yusho on 2 consecutive basho at hiramaku rank. The 4 were 26-28 years old when they achieved it

If you would have asked what those four had in common, I'd never guessed it.

[Reonito 1,522]

7 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

I always thought the difference being crashing outside (yori) or inside (abise) the dohyo, but what do I know...

Murray in the sumopedia kimarite video for yoritaoshi explicitly says otherwise, but the techniques look identical and the bouts shown seem to support this idea.

Yoritaoshi: https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/tv/sumo/techniques/6/

Abisetaoshi: https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/tv/sumo/techniques/7/

Edited January 25, 2022 by Reonito

[Asashosakari 19,667]

I think the distinction is intended to be that abisetaoshi means that the losing rikishi got tipped over on his heels with his body coming down along its full length, and the winner likewise crashing down on him the same way (the "force down" part of the English naming, i.e. forced down mainly by the winner's weight, not the grip etc.). The line between both is very blurry though, and e.g. the second win shown in the yoritaoshi video from 0:06 to 0:11 has nearly all the hallmarks of an abisetaoshi except that the winner didn't quite land directly on top of his aite.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Asashosakari

[Yubinhaad 11,761]

23 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

I think the distinction is intended to be that abisetaoshi means that the losing rikishi got tipped over on his heels with his body coming down along its full length, and the winner likewise crashing down on him the same way (the "force down" part of the English naming, i.e. forced down mainly by the winner's weight, not the grip etc.). The line between both is very blurry though, and e.g. the second win shown in the yoritaoshi video from 0:06 to 0:11 has nearly all the hallmarks of an abisetaoshi except that the winner didn't quite land directly on top of his aite.

That's pretty much it, the old Kyokai site's Japanese description says to defeat the opponent with your own body weight (自分の体重かけて倒すこと). Sometimes I think rikishi like Enho effectively do it to themselves when they go into that low squat position, either as a last-ditch escape manoeuvre or an effort to get under and inside to the opponent's mawashi or legs. Yoritaoshi specifically requires that it take place at the edge of the dohyo (土俵際).

[Reonito 1,522]

I am out of reactions, but thank you both!

[Katooshu 3,335]

Taking note of the 12 years it took Kotokuzan to get to juryo, while only taking him 3 juryo basho to get to makuuchi (although there was a makushita basho after his juryo debut), I'm curious......what's the biggest difference between the number of tournaments someone took to get to juryo vs the number it took them in juryo to get to makuuchi?

I am useless with the database, so if anyone could lend some help with this it would be much appreciated!

Edited February 4, 2022 by Katooshu

[Yokozuna Hattorizakura 153]

5 hours ago, Katooshu said:

Taking note of the 12 years it took Kotokuzan to get to juryo, while only taking him 3 juryo basho to get to makuuchi (although there was a makushita basho after his juryo debut), I'm curious......what's the biggest difference between the number of tournaments someone took to get to juryo vs the number it took them in juryo to get to makuuchi?

I am useless with the database, so if anyone could lend some help with this it would be much appreciated!

Off the top of my head, I know that Takanosho took 7 years to reach juryo but only 5 more basho to reach makuuchi, and Chiyomaru almost 7 years and 3 basho.

Digging a bit, I see Hokutoriki took 9 years but only 2 juryo basho, and Takanomine 14 years and only 3 basho

Edited February 5, 2022 by Yokozuna Hattorizakura

[Yamanashi 3,904]

2 hours ago, Yokozuna Hattorizakura said:

and Takanomine 14 years and only 3 basho

What a story that guy had!  Enters in 1974, hits the Ms joi eleven years later in 1985, again in 1987, again in 1988, decides "what the hell" and throws a 7-0 yusho at Ms10e, beating future Sekiwakes Takatoriki and Kotonishiki, and future top Maegashira Kushimaumi, Kotobeppu and Oginohana.  He only had a 4-11 cup of coffee in Makuuchi, but stayed in Juryo for 10 basho before retiring with a 6-1 at Ms42.  The victory of hope over experience?

[maglor 122]

If I'm using the database correctly, the last time an Ozeki beat a Yokozuna was 15 basho ago(May 2019, when Takyasu beat Kakuryu). This isn't necessarily a criticism of the Ozeki, as a large part of that is because Hakuho and Kakuryu were barely showing up, though part of it is also Takakeisho going kyujo and Shodai being Shodai especially since Teru is basically Cal Ripken by recent Yokozuna standards.

But 15 basho is still a hell of a long time. Could anyone better than me at using the DB figure out the last time 15 basho went by without an Ozeki beating a Yokozuna?

[Sakura 1,495]

35 minutes ago, maglor said:

If I'm using the database correctly, the last time an Ozeki beat a Yokozuna was 15 basho ago(May 2019, when Takyasu beat Kakuryu). This isn't necessarily a criticism of the Ozeki, as a large part of that is because Hakuho and Kakuryu were barely showing up, though part of it is also Takakeisho going kyujo and Shodai being Shodai especially since Teru is basically Cal Ripken by recent Yokozuna standards.

But 15 basho is still a hell of a long time. Could anyone better than me at using the DB figure out the last time 15 basho went by without an Ozeki beating a Yokozuna?

Here are all the time in the DB that an Ozeki has beaten a Yokozuna. A parse through all the pages suggests that this is the longest period in terms of basho number waiting for the next time an Ozeki beats a Yokozuna. The next closest that I can see is a 10 basho period before Akebono become a Yokozuna. 

in terms of time, there is a 3 year gap starting in 1913, but they had only 2 basho per year back then.

[Koorifuu 1,020]

On 04/02/2022 at 20:54, Katooshu said:

Taking note of the 12 years it took Kotokuzan to get to juryo, while only taking him 3 juryo basho to get to makuuchi (although there was a makushita basho after his juryo debut), I'm curious......what's the biggest difference between the number of tournaments someone took to get to juryo vs the number it took them in juryo to get to makuuchi?

I am useless with the database, so if anyone could lend some help with this it would be much appreciated!

 

On 05/02/2022 at 01:58, Yokozuna Hattorizakura said:

Off the top of my head, I know that Takanosho took 7 years to reach juryo but only 5 more basho to reach makuuchi, and Chiyomaru almost 7 years and 3 basho.

Digging a bit, I see Hokutoriki took 9 years but only 2 juryo basho, and Takanomine 14 years and only 3 basho

 

A certain skinny Czech man took almost 10 years to get to juryo, and only spent ONE yaocho purge assisted basho there on his way to makuuchi.

[Asashosakari 19,667]

Rikishi with double-digit negative KK/MK splits in juryo (aka: worse than Kizenryu's 0-9):

Sumanofuji 4-15
Tokushinho 8-19
Wakatenro 6-16

Double-digit positive splits:

Oshio 35-18
Daio 32-15
Tochitsukasa 20-6
Asanowaka 18-4
Asahisato 29-16
Kotonofuji 27-14
Futatsuryu 28-16
Kyokugozan 24-12
Hidanohana 22-11
Kotoyuki 17-6
Kasugao 15-5
Ishiura 13-3

(Restricted to rikishi with a juryo debut after the 1967 divisional size cut. Fully absent basho excluded from the MK counts.)

Edit: On further thought, for balance a few more of the most negative splits, down (up?) to minus 6:

Kizenryu 0-9
Wakakosho 8-16
Tamanokuni 1-8
Tochihiryu 1-8
Juzan 7-14
Oiwato 8-15
Kitaharima 9-16
Akiseyama 15-22
Hachiya 24-31
Sakigake 0-6
Kotohakusan 1-7
Masuraumi 2-8
Masutsuyoshi 4-10
Yoshinotani 7-13

Minus 5 isn't especially rare anymore and has been done nearly 20 times.

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 19,667]

Incidentally, it appears the starting record for kachikoshi in juryo (15-bout era) is jointly held by Wakanosato and 1960s Wakanokuni, who both had winning records in their first 10 juryo appearances, of course interrupted by a lot of time spent in makuuchi. I'm solely mentioning that because currently active Tamawashi and Yutakayama are both at 9-0 and may well eventually join or exceed that record mark.

[maglor 122]

There was a lot of talk about Kagayaki setting(or equaling idk) the record for most consecutive make-koshi in makuuchi with 7, isn't Tochinoshin in excellent position to break that record this basho? He already has 7 straight losing records

[Reonito 1,522]

17 hours ago, maglor said:

There was a lot of talk about Kagayaki setting(or equaling idk) the record for most consecutive make-koshi in makuuchi with 7, isn't Tochinoshin in excellent position to break that record this basho? He already has 7 straight losing records

Indeed.

[sahaven111 178]

23 hours ago, maglor said:

There was a lot of talk about Kagayaki setting(or equaling idk) the record for most consecutive make-koshi in makuuchi with 7, isn't Tochinoshin in excellent position to break that record this basho? He already has 7 straight losing records

Technically, the record holder is Kisenosato.

[Yamanashi 3,904]

1 hour ago, sahaven111 said:

Technically, the record holder is Kisenosato.

He's one up on Takanohana ...

[Koorifuu 1,020]

5 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

He's one up on Takanohana ...

...who is tied at 7 with the three guys listed below, who hold the record for non-yokozuna.

12 hours ago, Reonito said:

Indeed.

Takanohana's case is extra special as his seven mk basho were all full kyujo. This might be a whole different record - 105 consecutive missed bouts. I haven't done any research on this, but only something very ancient could possibly topple it.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Koorifuu

[Gurowake 4,108]

5 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

 only something very ancient could possibly topple it.

Depends on how you count time spent as Kyokai-gai.  

[Yamanashi 3,904]

10 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

...who is tied at 7 with the three guys listed below, who hold the record for non-yokozuna.

Takanohana's case is extra special as his seven mk basho were all full kyujo. This might be a whole different record - 105 consecutive missed bouts. I haven't done any research on this, but only something very ancient could possibly topple it.

So, Takanohana's MK record was broken by the next Japanese Yokozuna?