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Trivia bits

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On 28/03/2021 at 18:30, Yubinhaad said:


Sorry for a rather late reply, I didn't see these posts until the thread came back up today. According to my files, the longest periods without any kinboshi are as follows:

1931 Haru, Day 4 (Yamanishiki defeated Miyagiyama)  to  1933 Haru, Day 1 (Dewagatake defeated Tamanishiki)

80 honbasho days passed during this kinboshi-less spell which straddled the turmoil of the Shunjuen incident, but kinboshi weren't possible for much of it. Having given up four kinboshi in the opening four days, 36-year-old Miyagiyama fought and defeated three more Maegashira but retired after the basho to leave no Yokozuna on the banzuke until Tamanishiki's promotion.

 

1992 Haru, Day 2 (Kushimaumi defeated Hokutoumi)  to  1993 Haru, Day 6 (Kyokudozan defeated Akebono)

A similar situation occurred in the early 1990s, Hokutoumi's final kinboshi preceded his retirement and began a spell of 93 honbasho days without kinboshi. Again, there were no Yokozuna until Akebono's promotion, and he managed to beat four Maegashira before giving up his first kinboshi.

 

2010 Kyushu, Day 2 (Kisenosato defeated Hakuho)  to  2012 Natsu, Day 7 (Toyohibiki defeated Hakuho)

Unlike the earlier stints, this period of 124 honbasho days saw Hakuho ever-present. After Kisenosato put an end to his overall winning streak attempt, the lone Yokozuna repelled an astonishing 61 Maegashira opponents before Toyohibiki's greatest moment brought that streak to an end too.

 

2020 July, Day 1 (Endo defeated Kakuryu)  to  ?

With Kakuryu gone and Hakuho expected to sit out the Natsu basho, the current kinboshi-less stint will extend to 89 honbasho days, during which the latter has so far defeated 10 Maegashira opponents.


2020 July, Day 1 (Endo defeated Kakuryu)  to  2021 Aki, Day 9 (Daieisho defeated Terunofuji)

The kinboshi drought is over - 112 honbasho days after Kakuryu's ignominious end(o), another Oitekaze-beya rikishi claimed the first kinboshi from Terunofuji. During the barren spell, Hakuho defeated 19 Maegashira while Terunofuji defeated 7 before running into Daieisho.

Edited by Yubinhaad
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I believe Akua's 4 (and counting?) wins by kakenage set a record for most wins by that kimarite by a rikishi in a basho.

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On 21/09/2021 at 07:51, Reonito said:

I believe Akua's 4 (and counting?) wins by kakenage set a record for most wins by that kimarite by a rikishi in a basho.

Yes, at least in Juryo and Makuuchi (I didn’t bother with lower divisions as they fight fewer bouts so it seems unlikely anyone managed more.)

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&group_by=rikishi1&group_by2=basho&m=on&j=on&kimarite=13&onlyw1=on

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2 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Yes, at least in Juryo and Makuuchi (I didn’t bother with lower divisions as they fight fewer bouts so it seems unlikely anyone managed more.)

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&group_by=rikishi1&group_by2=basho&m=on&j=on&kimarite=13&onlyw1=on

There was one other rikishi with 3 in Jonidan, but even that many happened a total of only 3 times.

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3 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

(I didn’t bother with lower divisions as they fight fewer bouts so it seems unlikely anyone managed more.)

You're probably right, but I've been burned a couple of times using that approach.  While the sekitori have ~twice as many bouts/basho, they're outnumbered by ~575/75, so strange things can happened.  Now the Golden Apple for this kind of search would be to find a lower-ranker who made his KK completely with fusen wins.(Signofapproval...) I'm pretty sure the committee would try to stop that, but how could they w/o screwing up the day's torikumi?

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On 22/09/2021 at 00:07, Yamanashi said:

You're probably right, but I've been burned a couple of times using that approach.  While the sekitori have ~twice as many bouts/basho, they're outnumbered by ~575/75, so strange things can happened.  Now the Golden Apple for this kind of search would be to find a lower-ranker who made his KK completely with fusen wins.(Signofapproval...) I'm pretty sure the committee would try to stop that, but how could they w/o screwing up the day's torikumi?

Aren't the torikumi for low-rankers drawn up at such a late stage that fusen are rare?

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25 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

Aren't the torikumi for low-rankers drawn up at such a late stage that fusen are rare?

I know, but that makes it EVEN. MORE. AWESOME.

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51 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

Aren't the torikumi for low-rankers drawn up at such a late stage that fusen are rare?

The bulk of the torikumi for both (or all three) days of a Round is drawn up at the same time.  Trying to change one match around on the second day of a Round would be difficult as it would ripple all the way down the banzuke, and would have to avoid changing people who already had a match.  I suspect fusen wins in the lower divisions are much less common on the first day of each Round, though I haven't investigated that.  It's always still possible that someone gets hurt between the the time the torikumi is drawn up for the Round and their match, even if it's on the first day. 

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On 21/09/2021 at 21:07, Yamanashi said:

You're probably right, but I've been burned a couple of times using that approach.  While the sekitori have ~twice as many bouts/basho, they're outnumbered by ~575/75, so strange things can happened.  Now the Golden Apple for this kind of search would be to find a lower-ranker who made his KK completely with fusen wins.(Signofapproval...) I'm pretty sure the committee would try to stop that, but how could they w/o screwing up the day's torikumi?

This is an easy query, no? According to this, the record for most fusen wins is 3, "accomplished" once in Juryo. Two has happened a number of times, with a mix of divisions.

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The first time a kadoban Ozeki has a kachikoshi after losing his first three bouts since kadoban was invented in July 1969.

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8 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

The first time a kadoban Ozeki has a kachikoshi after losing his first three bouts since kadoban was invented in July 1969.

Just to add to the context of how bad this was:

Of 4 other cases of kadoban ozeki starting 0-3, three of them retired (Wakashimazu, Musoyama, Goeido), and I suspect the fourth would have (Kirishima) if he had had a kabu.

Mad props to Takakeisho for pulling it off. I didn't believe he could, but he did. And he's even in theoretical yusho contention, to boot!

Edited by Seiyashi
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1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

Just to add to the context how bad this was:

Of 4 other cases of kadoban ozeki starting 0-3, three of them retired (Wakashimazu, Musoyama, Goeido), and I suspect the fourth would have (Kirishima) if he had had a kabu.

Mad props to Takakeisho for pulling it off. I didn't believe he could, but he did. And he's even in theoretical yusho contention, to boot!

I gave him little chance given his losses came in his easy first week against hiramaku and one Komusubi. He’s done very well to turn it around before having to face Mitakeumi, Shodai (which he won’t anyway now) and Terunofuji.

Edited by Eikokurai
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Just now, Eikokurai said:

I gave him little chance given his losses came in his easy first week against hiramaku. He’s done very well to turn it around before having to face Mitakeumi, Shodai (which he won’t anyway now) and Terunofuji.

Yes, the manner of the loss to Kiribayama was especially jarring. I honestly thought it was over for him at that point.

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1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

Just to add to the context how bad this was:

Of 4 other cases of kadoban ozeki starting 0-3, three of them retired (Wakashimazu, Musoyama, Goeido), and I suspect the fourth would have (Kirishima) if he had had a kabu.

Mad props to Takakeisho for pulling it off. I didn't believe he could, but he did. And he's even in theoretical yusho contention, to boot!

Don't know why, but I thought there was a good chance of him pulling out a KK.  He hasn't been a real fast starter in Makuuchi, and he often takes a couple of days to get the machine in tune.  [It goes without saying that when he does start with a win string, he's big trouble: his five 3-0 tournaments were Shukun-sho at M5, Yusho at K1, Jun-Yusho at S1, Jun-Yusho at Ozekiwake, and Yusho at Ozeki.]

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16 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

Don't know why, but I thought there was a good chance of him pulling out a KK.  He hasn't been a real fast starter in Makuuchi, and he often takes a couple of days to get the machine in tune.  [It goes without saying that when he does start with a win string, he's big trouble: his five 3-0 tournaments were Shukun-sho at M5, Yusho at K1, Jun-Yusho at S1, Jun-Yusho at Ozekiwake, and Yusho at Ozeki.]

That's fair. Is there already an existing thread for who has the most deceptive starting days, or something similar?

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On 22/09/2021 at 06:07, Yamanashi said:

You're probably right, but I've been burned a couple of times using that approach.  While the sekitori have ~twice as many bouts/basho, they're outnumbered by ~575/75, so strange things can happened.  Now the Golden Apple for this kind of search would be to find a lower-ranker who made his KK completely with fusen wins.(Signofapproval...) I'm pretty sure the committee would try to stop that, but how could they w/o screwing up the day's torikumi?

Why would they stop it? It's exceedingly unlikely anyway since a lot of lower division fusen are given up by rikishi with bad records (who tried to compete without being in any real capacity to do so), and a rikishi who already has two or three wins just won't be in line to face such opponents in the first place.

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Trivia question that I don't know the answer to off-hand, but maybe somebody else does: Rikishi who never reached sanyaku but whose shikona was later adopted by somebody not family-related anyway.

Query prompted by the new Asanowaka, of course. Feels highly unusual, but maybe I'm missing some (or even a lot) of other cases.


Pseudo-edit: While composing the post I did recall Daishoyama after all, who took the name of his shisho (career high: M2) late in his career. That was a very odd one, though, the original thrust of my question is more about rikishi who adopted a past rikishi's name as career inspiration.

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My first thought was Terao, but no. The former Terao did have a stint in sanyaku, even though it was brief relative to his career. And I'd somehow missed Neo-Terao's retirement in July 2020. 

I plugged the data into an excel spreadsheet and looked for duplicates and there are a surprising number to go through. Dewanohana / Dewanohana are the first pair that seem plausible. Same heya, no career overlap. Not sure how to run down the familial connection angle though, beyond the obvious surnames. I'll go through the rest of the spreadsheet later and post more pairs. 

Edited by Benevolance
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7 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Trivia question that I don't know the answer to off-hand, but maybe somebody else does: Rikishi who never reached sanyaku but whose shikona was later adopted by somebody not family-related anyway.

The first Yutakayama peaked at M17 in 1953. I don't know if he was related to the other bearers of the shikona.

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Toho got his 500th career win on Day 12, and his 500th career loss on Day 13.


This was the 49th basho since Myogiryu's previous sansho, which according to my notes is the third-longest stretch between sansho wins.
 

Rikishi		Basho	Previous Sansho 	Next Sansho
				
Tamakasuga	55	1997 Natsu (S)		2006 Nagoya (G)
Takanonami	53	1994 Hatsu (K)		2002 Kyushu (K)
Myogiryu	49	2013 Natsu (G)		2021 Aki (G)
Dejima		47	1999 Nagoya (S, G, K)	2007 Natsu (K)
Kirinji		36	1982 Haru (K)		1988 Haru (K)
Daijuyama	34	1982 Aki (S)		1988 Natsu (K)
Aoiyama		34	2011 Kyushu (K)		2017 Nagoya (K)
Kaisei		34	2012 Nagoya (K)		2018 Haru (K)
Kotonowaka	33	1998 Aki (S)		2004 Haru (K)
Miyabiyama	33	2000 Natsu (K)		2005 Kyushu (K)

 

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Maegashira with records of 9-6 or better getting passed by juryo promotees, since 1949.05 (in brackets: lowest M rank; basho date in red = 10-5 involved):

1958.01 (M21w)        2005.09 (M17w)        2012.03 (M16w)
M20w  9-6 -> M16w     M15e  9-6 -> M10w     M16e  9-6 -> M11e
M21w  9-6 -> M17w     J1w  14-1 -> M8w      J1e  11-4 -> M10w
J3e  13-2 -> M16e     

1958.09 (M22w)        2006.01 (M17e)        2012.05 (M16e)
M19e  9-6 -> M15e     M17e  9-6 -> M14w     M16e  9-6 -> M10w
M20e  9-6 -> M17w     J1e  13-2 -> M12w     J2w  12-3 -> M10e
J1e  14-1 -> M13w     

1995.05 (M16e)        2006.11 (M15w)        2012.11 (M16e)
M14e  9-6 -> M9w      M14e  9-6 -> M11e     M16e  9-6 -> M12w
J1e  14-1 -> M7w      J2w  13-2 -> M10w     J4w  14-1 -> M12e

1999.01 (M15e)        2007.09 (M16w)        2014.01 (M17e)
M12w  9-6 -> M9w      M16w  9-6 -> M14e     M16e  9-6 -> M11e
M14e 10-5 -> M9e      J1w  10-5 -> M13w     J1w  12-3 -> M10w
J1w  14-1 -> M7e      

2003.11 (M15w)        2010.09 (M17e)        2014.03 (M16w)
M15w  9-6 -> M11e     M15e 10-5 -> M10e     M11w  9-6 -> M7w
J2w  14-1 -> M10w     J1w  14-1 -> M9w      M15w 10-5 -> M12e
                                            J2w  14-1 -> M7e

2004.03 (M17e)        2011.01 (M17e)        2016.03 (M16e)
M16w  9-6 -> M12e     M14e  9-6 -> M10w     M13w 10-5 -> M8w
J2w  12-3 -> M11w     M15w  9-6 -> M12w     M14w 10-5 -> M9w
                      M16w  9-6 -> M14w     J1e  13-2 -> M7w
                      J2e  12-3 -> M10e
                      J2w  12-3 -> M11w

That's 16 basho in which it happened to 9-6's and 4 times where 10-5's were a part of it, including two overlapping cases. For comparison, 8-7's got passed after 93 tournaments (12 of the 18 listed above plus 81 others).

In case anyone wants to investigate the 8-7's:

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7 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

That's 16 basho in which it happened to 9-6's and 4 times where 10-5's were a part of it, including two overlapping cases. For comparison, 8-7's got passed after 93 tournaments (12 of the 18 listed above plus 81 others).

So the question, I guess, is how often it didn't happen. It seems 12 is the magic number for the "juryo promotees under makuuchi KKs" rule to be broken.

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

So the question, I guess, is how often it didn't happen.

Trivial answer: In every other basho since Natsu 1949. ;-) Of course the question I suppose you're getting at is how many "close" cases there were that went the other way. Not as easy to answer since there's no clear way to produce an exhaustive list. (And I suppose this is the trivia thread and not the GTB advice thread anyway...)

The linked tournaments are a good basis for study anyway, since often there were other, only slightly higher ranked maegashira KK who didn't get passed.

Edited by Asashosakari
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18 hours ago, Yubinhaad said:

Toho got his 500th career win on Day 12, and his 500th career loss on Day 13.


This was the 49th basho since Myogiryu's previous sansho, which according to my notes is the third-longest stretch between sansho wins.
 


Rikishi		Basho	Previous Sansho 	Next Sansho
				
Tamakasuga	55	1997 Natsu (S)		2006 Nagoya (G)
Takanonami	53	1994 Hatsu (K)		2002 Kyushu (K)
Myogiryu	49	2013 Natsu (G)		2021 Aki (G)
Dejima		47	1999 Nagoya (S, G, K)	2007 Natsu (K)
Kirinji		36	1982 Haru (K)		1988 Haru (K)
Daijuyama	34	1982 Aki (S)		1988 Natsu (K)
Aoiyama		34	2011 Kyushu (K)		2017 Nagoya (K)
Kaisei		34	2012 Nagoya (K)		2018 Haru (K)
Kotonowaka	33	1998 Aki (S)		2004 Haru (K)
Miyabiyama	33	2000 Natsu (K)		2005 Kyushu (K)

 

 

It's kinda unreasonable to consider Takanonami in this list because he was an Ozeki during most of that time period, even winning two Yusho.  For Dejima and especially Miyabiyama, it's a bit more reasonable, since none of their performances as Ozeki really would have demanded sansho, but I feel like Takanonami really needs an asterisk, and of course once you do that you probably should do it for the other two ex-Ozeki.

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The most shin-nyuumaku (makuuchi debutants) to go straight back to Juryo in the modern era is 4, in 2013 Natsu basho.

Chiyootori, Azumaryu Homarefuji, and Daikiho.

The most shin-nyuumaku to go straight back to Juryo, and never return to makunouchi is I think 3, in 1948 Natsu basho. But its really hard to check this. I read it in a book.

Tamazakura, Mihamanada, and Hakunozan.

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