Yamanashi 3,724 Posted February 1, 2021 3 hours ago, ryafuji said: "Banzuke luck" is a harsh way to describe the reward for becoming the first rikishi ever to win all three sansho in the same tournament, plus scoring 11 wins and getting a kinboshi in his debut. Sure it was a big promotion, but you can't say he hadn't shown potential. (It was a serious back injury and diabetes that were largely responsible for him failing to reach sanyaku again.) Posting like an Ozeki! This happens to me all the time: I see someone's record and assume he was a sad sack loser who didn't have what it takes to make (Juryo, Sanyaku, whatever). I post my opinion of same and someone replies something like "Well, you know his wife left him and he had that kidney removed; maybe that affected his time in Makuuchi." Then I feel like a complete ... [Note: clearly I have been over-promoted on this Forum!] 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reonito 1,335 Posted February 1, 2021 Man, yeah, that was like a round of kawaigari. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gurowake 3,915 Posted February 1, 2021 6 hours ago, sahaven111 said: Trivia: this is the 1000th post in the thread I'm very proud of this thread. 4 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,786 Posted March 1, 2021 3 hours ago, Kintamayama said: Topics: Tokushouryuu broke the record for least number of bashos to fall to Juryo after a yusho - 5. The record was 7 held by Wakanami. He's the 14th rikishi to fall to Juryo with yusho experience. Complete list: Rikishi Highest Rank Yusho Juryo --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tokushoryu Maegashira 2 2020.01 2021.03 (5 basho to drop) Wakanami Komusubi 1968.03 1969.07 (7) Takatoriki Sekiwake 2000.03 2001.07 (7) Kotonishiki Sekiwake 1998.11* 2000.05 (8) Baruto Ozeki 2012.01 2013.09 (9), retired without competing Terunofuji Ozeki 2015.05* 2018.03 (16) Kotofuji Sekiwake 1991.07 1994.11 (19) Tagaryu Sekiwake 1984.09 1988.07 (22) Bishuyama Sekiwake 1945.06 1955.01 (26) Kotoshogiku Ozeki 2016.01 2020.11 (27) Tokitsuyama Sekiwake 1953.05 1961.03 (37), retired without competing Mitoizumi Sekiwake 1992.07 1999.05 (40) Wakamisugi Sekiwake 1960.05 1967.05 (41), retired without competing Takamiyama Sekiwake 1972.07 1984.03 (69) * It was Kotonishiki's second yusho of two and Terunofuji's first of two, respectively; all others were one-time winners. 3 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jakusotsu 5,814 Posted March 4, 2021 (edited) Most consecutive Basho as Maegashira # Rikishi From To ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------58 Kyokushuzan 1997.05 2006.11 fell from his highest rank K1w just before and never dropped to Juryo 53 Higonoumi 1993.03 2001.11 highest rank M1w, no sansho, two kinboshi against Akebono and Takanohana45 Takamisakari 2004.01 2011.07 Komusubi twice before43 Ozutsu 1985.01 1992.01 eleven times Sanyaku before42 Minatofuji 1994.05 2001.03 highest rank M2e, one Kanto-sho, three kinboshi against Takanohana and Musashimaru41 Kitakachidoki 1991.09 1998.05 highest rank M3w, no sansho, no kinboshi, can't get any more bleak than him41 Tokitsuumi 1998.09 2005.05 highest rank M3e, four Gino-sho, no kinboshi40 Daiyu 1965.11 1972.05 highest rank M1e, no sansho, no kinboshi, won his second Juryo Yusho right after the drop40 Kotonowaka 1999.05 2005.11 fell from his highest rank S1w just before and dropped to Juryo only twice earlier40 Yoshikaze 2007.07 2014.03 ended the streak with his his Sanyaku debut Currently there's Kagayaki at 28 (no sansho, no kinboshi), Takarafuji at 25 (dropped from Sekiwake), and Kaisei with 24 before his Sanyaku debut. Edited March 4, 2021 by Jakusotsu 6 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jakusotsu 5,814 Posted March 4, 2021 Most consecutive Basho in Juryo # Rikishi From To ---------------------------------39 Sawakaze 1960.03 1966.0737 Hakuyuzan 1951.09 1959.1134 Tomonohana 1996.03 2001.09 (the only one I'm familiar with)31 Sagahikari 1956.01 1961.0730 Kochi 1958.11 1963.0930 Tochiisami 1975.01 1979.1130 Hakuryu 1979.05 1984.0330 Toyonoumi 1994.05 1999.0329 Azumanishiki 1962.11 1967.0728 Ijuin 1955.03 1960.07 Kyokushuho is currently at 23, tied with Azumaryu's former record. Mitoryu has never been out of Juryo after his promotion 19 Basho ago. 3 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hakutorizakura 590 Posted March 7, 2021 On 01/02/2021 at 00:57, ryafuji said: "Banzuke luck" is a harsh way to describe the reward for becoming the first rikishi ever to win all three sansho in the same tournament, plus scoring 11 wins and getting a kinboshi in his debut. Sure it was a big promotion, but you can't say he hadn't shown potential. (It was a serious back injury and diabetes that were largely responsible for him failing to reach sanyaku again.) Exceptional basho performance. Is there a list somewhere of those who managed the 3-sansho feat? I was only aware of Takahanada before knowing this one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kamitsuumi 384 Posted March 7, 2021 Daiju, Ōnishiki, Takahanada, Dejima, Kotomitsuki 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryafuji 807 Posted March 7, 2021 10 hours ago, hakutorizakura said: Exceptional basho performance. Is there a list somewhere of those who managed the 3-sansho feat? I was only aware of Takahanada before knowing this one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanshō_(sumo)#Sanshō_sweeps 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,786 Posted March 9, 2021 (edited) Randomly stumbled upon this in the Japanese Wikipedia just now (in their article about the makushita division): Back in January 36-year-old Katsunofuji set a new all-time record with his 19th (!) promotion from sandanme to makushita. His longest consecutive stints in makushita lasted 11 and 9 basho respectively; all others ended in 4 or fewer. Edited March 9, 2021 by Asashosakari 5 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,786 Posted March 18, 2021 In Hatsu 1980, juryo rikishi Hidanohana faced a record 12 opponents who finished the basho 8-7, and for good measure he scored an 8-7 record himself as well. 4 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gurowake 3,915 Posted March 22, 2021 (edited) Top number of times (since 1956) a given pair of rikishi have both been ranked at Sekiwake for the same tournament. This counts times when there were more than 2 Sekiwake. 8 Kaio&Musoyama 7 Hasegawa&Maenoyama 7 Kaio&Kotonishiki 7 Kotomitsuki&Miyabiyama 6 Kaiketsu&Takamiyama 6 Kisenosato&Kotoshogiku 6 Kotonishiki&Musoyama 5 Annenyama&Kitabayama 5 Goeido&Tochiozan 5 Kotogaume&Sakahoko 5 Kotonishiki&Takatoriki 5 Musoyama&Takatoriki 5 Musoyama&Tochiazuma 4 Baruto&Goeido 4 Goeido&Myogiryu 4 Haguroyama&Tochinoumi 4 Hasegawa&Mienoumi 4 Hasegawa&Takanohana 4 Hoshi&Onokuni 4 Kaio&Takatoriki 4 Kaio&Tochiazuma 4 Kakuryu&Kisenosato 4 Kirinji&Kiyokuni 4 Kotomitsuki&Wakanosato 4 Kotonishiki&Musashimaru 4 Miyabiyama&Tochiazuma 4 Miyabiyama&Wakanosato 4 Musashimaru&Takanonami 4 Sadanoyama&Tochinoumi Generating this required me to create a lot of duplicates; hopefully I've trimmed all of them. Edited March 22, 2021 by Gurowake 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,786 Posted March 23, 2021 I believe Kirinji/Daikirin & Maenoyama is also part of the 5's (Link). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gurowake 3,915 Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, Asashosakari said: I believe Kirinji/Daikirin & Maenoyama is also part of the 5's (Link). It is true that I did this solely by (romanized) shikona, and thus missed any changes. Edited March 23, 2021 by Gurowake Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,786 Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Seiyashi said: 2 hours ago, Eikokurai said: 2 hours ago, Seiyashi said: Asahi dug up this statistic: out of 25 times a rikishi has a 2-bout lead on day 10, they went on to win the yusho on 24 occasions. The sole exception was Hakuho's Hatsu 2019 withdrawal on day 14. Is that 25 a random cutoff for statistical analysis purposes or have there only been 25 instances of this in all of sumo history? That seems remarkably low, tbh. The Tweet itself says Heisei, so the last 30 years, basically. I wouldn't be surprised if the person in question was named Hakuho for half of those cases either. Surprisingly, pre-Heisei only adds another 10 cases to the list for the whole 15-bout era since 1949. All of those leaders proceeded to win the yusho as well. Tally by rikishi: 6 Hakuho (2008.07, 2010.05, 2011.01, 2013.03, 2017.11, 2019.01 [did not win])5 Chiyonofuji (1982.07, 1985.05, 1989.09, 1990.01, 1990.11)5 Asashoryu (2002.11, 2003.09, 2005.01, 2005.03, 2005.11)3 Kitanoumi (1974.01, 1975.01 [3-win lead], 1980.03)3 Akebono (1992.05 [at 9-1], 1993.09, 2000.07)2 Takanohana (1994.11, 1996.09) 1 Tochinoumi (1963.11)1 Taiho (1966.11)1 Kitanofuji (1972.09)1 Wajima (1973.11)1 Wakashimazu (1984.07)1 Wakanohana (1998.03)1 Takatoriki (2000.03)1 Kotomitsuki (2001.09 [at 9-1])1 Musashimaru (2002.03)1 Chiyotaikai (2003.03 [at 9-1])1 Mitakeumi (2018.07)1 Takayasu (2021.03 [at 9-1, outcome?]) Also somewhat surprisingly none of the leader-winners even required a playoff in the end. Edited March 23, 2021 by Asashosakari 3 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asojima 2,870 Posted March 23, 2021 1 Wajima (1973.11) Kyujo on day 14, but still yusho'd 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yamanashi 3,724 Posted March 23, 2021 Oh, crap, poor Takayasu might merely win the yusho, or put in a record-breaking performance . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Benevolance 2,478 Posted March 23, 2021 Trivia fact: this will, in fact, be Takayasu's first yusho, despite me absolutely positively being certain that we won once before and wasting half the day pouring over records and matches to figure out why the rest of the world was wrong, and finally coming to the realization that I've jumped timelines and I'm currently in a different reality. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eikokurai 3,433 Posted March 23, 2021 6 hours ago, Asashosakari said: Surprisingly, pre-Heisei only adds another 10 cases to the list for the whole 15-bout era since 1949. All of those leaders proceeded to win the yusho as well. Tally by rikishi: 6 Hakuho (2008.07, 2010.05, 2011.01, 2013.03, 2017.11, 2019.01 [did not win])5 Chiyonofuji (1982.07, 1985.05, 1989.09, 1990.01, 1990.11)5 Asashoryu (2002.11, 2003.09, 2005.01, 2005.03, 2005.11)3 Kitanoumi (1974.01, 1975.01 [3-win lead], 1980.03)3 Akebono (1992.05 [at 9-1], 1993.09, 2000.07)2 Takanohana (1994.11, 1996.09) 1 Tochinoumi (1963.11)1 Taiho (1966.11)1 Kitanofuji (1972.09)1 Wajima (1973.11)1 Wakashimazu (1984.07)1 Wakanohana (1998.03)1 Takatoriki (2000.03)1 Kotomitsuki (2001.09 [at 9-1])1 Musashimaru (2002.03)1 Chiyotaikai (2003.03 [at 9-1])1 Mitakeumi (2018.07)1 Takayasu (2021.03 [at 9-1, outcome?]) Also somewhat surprisingly none of the leader-winners even required a playoff in the end. Thinking about it now, I suppose it’s not all that shocking. We’ve had approx. 180 basho in the past 30 years, so 25 of them meeting the criteria feels about right. I think it more statistically likely that after 10 days yusho-race leaders either be tied or separated by just one win, especially as the gap is rarely by more than two even after day 15 is done. Records become more separated the more bouts they fight after all. On day two half of them share the lead; by senshuraku only one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seiyashi 4,071 Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, Eikokurai said: Thinking about it now, I suppose it’s not all that shocking. We’ve had approx. 180 basho in the past 30 years, so 25 of them meeting the criteria feels about right. I think it more statistically likely that after 10 days yusho-race leaders either be tied or separated by just one win, especially as the gap is rarely by more than two even after day 15 is done. Records become more separated the more bouts they fight after all. On day two half of them share the lead; by senshuraku only one. At the risk of losing people mathematically, we are essentially asking about the binomial distribution of 42 people over 15 days, or a Pascal's Triangle. This is of course assuming rikishi win or lose bouts randomly. When talking about all rikishi it's reasonable, but if you look at individual rikishi there's a noticeable bias for the joi-jin to be on the bum end and the sanyaku to be on the top end. And, as we will see, dai-yokozuna horribly skew this because their win rate is almost certainly 100% or pretty darn close to it. So after 1 day, half the division will win or lose (1-1). After 2 days, 50% of the division will have 1 win, 25% with 2 wins and 25% with none (1-2-1). Row 10 goes like this: 1, 10, 45, 120, 210, 252, 210, 120, 45, 10, 1. This means, probability-wise, that the chance to have a certain number of wins by day 10 is approximately as follows (and extending to the number of rikishi expected to have that number of wins): 0 wins: 0.1% or 0.042 rikishi, or 2 rikishi every 50 tournaments 1 win: 1% or 0.42 rikishi, or 2 rikishi every 5 tournaments 2 wins: 4.4% or 2 rikishi 3 wins: 11.7% or 5 rikishi 4 wins: 20.5% or 8 rikishi 5 wins: 24.6% or 10 rikishi 6 wins: 20.5% or 8 rikishi 7 wins: 11.7% or 5 rikishi 8 wins: 4.4% or 2 rikishi 9 wins: 1% or 0.42 rikishi, or 2 rikishi every 5 tournaments 10 wins: 0.1% or 0.042 rikishi, or 2 rikishi every 50 tournaments Obviously we have a lot of 10 win rikishi courtesy of the GOAT. Hakuho's 15 zensho in the Heisei period (30x6 basho or 180) is about double the expected strike rate for a 10-win rikishi, and this is before accounting for all the times he went 10-0 by day 10 and dropped some to fellow rikishi. So Hakuho's results are at least twice as good as random if not more! 25 basho out of 180 is about 13% of basho. It would be mathematically more common for leaders to be 9-1 and their pursuers to be 7-3; of course the presence of dai-yokozuna significantly skews the odds of getting a 10-win rikishi from the random. It's no surprise that many of the 2-win leaders are in fact those same dai-yokozuna. This actually gives me ideas of how to simulate a basho before it's begun by using rikishi's historical win rates, or to actually quantify how good a basho an individual rikishi is having based on their historical win rates. That said, accounting for injuries as a major confounder will be challenging. I suspect Tachiai and GSB did something similar when they put on the mock basho last year. Edited March 24, 2021 by Seiyashi 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eikokurai 3,433 Posted March 25, 2021 (edited) With Kakuryu gone and the possibility of Hakuho not being too far behind, with nobody yet stepping into their shoes, I started wondering if we’ve seen our last kinboshi for a while. It got me thinking, what’s the longest spell without any Maegashira beating a Yokozuna, both with Yokozuna on the banzuke and without? For the record, Hakuho most recently gave up a kinboshi almost exactly a year ago: Day 10 of Haru 2020, March 17th, to M5w Onosho. Kakuryu’s most recent was of course his slip against Endo on day one of July last year so the current count without a kinboshi is 249 calendar days (70 basho days). Edited March 25, 2021 by Eikokurai 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oshirokita 173 Posted March 25, 2021 5 minutes ago, Eikokurai said: With Kakuryu gone and the possibility of Hakuho not being too far behind, with nobody yet stepping into their shoes, I started wondering if we’ve seen our last kinboshi for a while. It got me thinking, what’s the longest spell without any Maegashira beating a Yokozuna, both with Yokozuna on the banzuke and without? There has been at least 1 kinboshi every year from 1988 to 2020 except for 2011. So, for Heisei to present, the longest gap I know of is between Day 2 Kyushu 2010 Kisenosato d. Hakuho. Next was Day 7 Natsu 2012 Toyohibiki d. Hakuho. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oshirokita 173 Posted March 25, 2021 The most recent kinboshi was Day 1 of the 2020 July basho (Endo d. Kakuryu), so it will be a full year (at least) from then until the next kinboshi (assuming Hakuho skips the May basho this year). 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bessantj 4 Posted March 25, 2021 Akinoshima holds the record of most kinboshi with 16, that includes 4 against Chiyonofuji! Even back in the 80s/90s that must have been a tidy little bonus to his pay. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gurowake 3,915 Posted March 27, 2021 (edited) I have no idea how one would research for this easily, but I suspect Akiseyama may be the oldest rikishi to reach a career high rank, 35 years, 8 months, at least in any time period that's sufficiently modern. I don't think there are any Ozeki or Yokozuna promotions of anyone that old in any modern time, and most guys who are that old in the top division have been up and down it many times. Closest I can think of recently: Yoshikaze to Sekiwake at 33 and 10 months, Hatsu 2016. EDIT: Takekaze even closer: Sekiwake at 35 years, 3 months, Aki 2014 Edited March 27, 2021 by Gurowake 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites