Katooshu 3,332 Posted January 28, 2021 Sorry if it's been answered, but does anyone know the oldest sanyaku debut for an eventual ozeki (highest rank) and yokozuna? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kamitsuumi 402 Posted January 28, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, Katooshu said: Sorry if it's been answered, but does anyone know the oldest sanyaku debut for an eventual ozeki (highest rank) and yokozuna? Probably Kirishima for Ozeki Edit: Kirishima was 27y9m, Yoshibayama was 30y5m, but I'm not too sure of these being the oldest. They actually share the same birthday of April 3rd though. Edited January 28, 2021 by Kamitsuumi 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shumitto 418 Posted January 28, 2021 4 hours ago, Kamitsuumi said: Probably Kirishima for Ozeki Kotomitsuki was older. When he was promoted to Ozeki back in 2007 the Kyokai released such a list, but I didn't save it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryafuji 815 Posted January 28, 2021 2 hours ago, shumitto said: Kotomitsuki was older. When he was promoted to Ozeki back in 2007 the Kyokai released such a list, but I didn't save it. Right but he made his sanyaku debut way earlier, in 2001. I think the question was what is the oldest komusubi or sekiwake debut for someone who went on to become ozeki or yokozuna. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yamanashi 3,903 Posted January 28, 2021 2 hours ago, ryafuji said: Right but he made his sanyaku debut way earlier, in 2001. I think the question was what is the oldest komusubi or sekiwake debut for someone who went on to become ozeki or yokozuna. For HD since 1950, it's Kirishima. Almost everyone else hit sanyaku age 20-25. The other outlier is ... Shodai. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,654 Posted January 28, 2021 28 minutes ago, Yamanashi said: Almost everyone else hit sanyaku age 20-25. The other outlier is ... Shodai. How is Shodai an outlier for that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yamanashi 3,903 Posted January 28, 2021 4 hours ago, Asashosakari said: How is Shodai an outlier for that? Sorry, I was simply subtracting years and assigned him to 26 years old, not realizing that in fact on the first day of the 2017 Hatsu basho he would be approximately 25 years, 2 months and 3 days old. I submit my papers. What really came across as I was going through the records was how reliably the first sanyaku appearance lay within the 20-25 window. Maybe it's no different than what happens to sanyaku who don't make it to Ozeki, but I haven't the time to check right now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Katooshu 3,332 Posted January 28, 2021 10 hours ago, ryafuji said: Right but he made his sanyaku debut way earlier, in 2001. I think the question was what is the oldest komusubi or sekiwake debut for someone who went on to become ozeki or yokozuna. Yep, although I do appreciate the answers to oldest ozeki debut too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gurowake 4,106 Posted January 29, 2021 5 hours ago, Yamanashi said: What really came across as I was going through the records was how reliably the first sanyaku appearance lay within the 20-25 window. Maybe it's no different than what happens to sanyaku who don't make it to Ozeki, but I haven't the time to check right now. Given people starting at worst the year after they graduate from college, I find it extremely reasonable to think that if you don't make sanyaku before you turn 26 that you're not going to make Ozeki. Plenty of people make it to sanyaku after turning 26, and they generally aren't seen as Ozeki material, even if they get some KKs in the joi (Yoshikaze, Tamawashi). I suppose Daieisho didn't make sanyaku until after he turned 26 and right now is looking like a good Ozeki candidate, but he only missed it by 2 months. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reonito 1,519 Posted January 29, 2021 5 hours ago, Yamanashi said: Maybe it's no different than what happens to sanyaku who don't make it to Ozeki, but I haven't the time to check right now. Here's a query to get you started. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jakusotsu 6,049 Posted January 29, 2021 5 hours ago, Reonito said: Here's a query to get you started. That query is flawed because it doesn't find Takanosho for instance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reonito 1,519 Posted January 29, 2021 I know; I don't think the db has the flexibility to find sekiwake debuts that were not preceded by appearances at komusubi. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Octofuji 369 Posted January 29, 2021 16 hours ago, Reonito said: Here's a query to get you started. Interesting to see how strongly a kachikoshi at this stage predicts future greatness Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,654 Posted January 30, 2021 (edited) Rolling up the earlier discussion comprehensively, here are the oldest sanyaku debutants who ended up becoming ozeki. The Kyokai typically treats age records based on the banzuke release date, but not only was I too lazy to calculate it exactly, I'd have to guess/assume many of the older banzuke release dates anyway. So, just quick'n'dirty for full months taking the last day of the month preceding the basho as the "debut day". Among the 75 rikishi who became ozeki post-WWII: Age Birthdate Sanyaku-----------------------------------------------30y 4m 1920/04/03 1950.09 Yoshibayama (Y)28y 5m 1924/07/20 1953.01 Matsunobori27y 8m 1959/04/03 1987.01 Kirishima26y 8m 1923/04/30 1950.01 Kagamisato (Y)26y 7m 1918/03/01 1944.11 Shionoumi 25y 7m 1994/03/01 2019.11 Asanoyama *[O]25y 6m 1947/04/25 1972.11 Asahikuni25y 2m 1927/10/10 1953.01 Kotogahama25y 1m 1991/11/05 2017.01 Shodai *[O]25y 1m 1957/01/12 1982.03 Wakashimazu-----------------------------------------------24y 10m 1926/06/19 1951.05 Ouchiyama24y 10m 1925/02/20 1950.01 Tochinishiki (Y)24y 8m 1976/04/11 2001.01 Kotomitsuki *24y 8m 1937/08/18 1962.05 Yutakayama *24y 5m 1952/09/29 1977.03 Takanosato (Y)24y 4m 1955/12/09 1980.05 Asashio *24y 4m 1942/06/20 1966.11 Daikirin24y 2m 1948/02/16 1972.05 Kaiketsu24y 1m 1919/11/03 1944.01 Masuiyama24y 1m 1948/11/16 1973.01 Masuiyama24y 1m 1935/05/17 1959.07 Kitabayama (Y) = reached yokozuna, [O] = currently active ozeki. All others topped out at ozeki. Collegiate rikishi marked with *. I was amused to find that father and son Masuiyama did it at practically the same age. The list is rather heavily dominated by rikishi who had their start before the 6-basho era. Plus more recent guys who got their start out of university, for the obvious "already old when turning pro" reason. (Wajima's 24th birthday was three days into his first sanyaku tournament, if you're wondering now.) Daieisho would slot in at 26y 1m if he makes it. Edited January 30, 2021 by Asashosakari 2 9 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,654 Posted January 31, 2021 And the sort of requested follow-up...all 185 rikishi with a hatsu-dohyo after 1958 who have reached sanyaku, sorted by their age when they got there. (Ascending this time, and with a later starting cutoff to get rid of all the pre-six basho guys from the previous table.) Later yokozuna in red, later ozeki in blue, active rikishi marked with x in front of their shikona. Spoiler tagged due to the sheer size of the table. Interpret at your leisure. Age Birthdate Sanyaku --------------------------------------------------- 18y 10m 1972/08/12 1991.07 Takanohana [Link] 19y 7m 1953/05/16 1973.01 Kitanoumi [Link] 19y 9m 1985/03/11 2005.01 x Hakuho [Link] 19y 11m 1986/07/03 2006.07 Kisenosato [Link] --------------------------------------------------- 20y 1m 1953/09/11 1973.11 Onishiki [Link] 20y 6m 1963/06/22 1984.01 Hokutoumi [Link] 20y 6m 1950/02/19 1970.09 Takanohana [Link] 20y 7m 1980/09/27 2001.05 Asashoryu [Link] 20y 7m 1946/09/26 1967.05 Fujinokawa [Link] 20y 7m 1976/11/09 1997.07 Tochiazuma [Link] 20y 8m 1957/04/26 1978.01 Kotokaze [Link] 20y 9m 1971/01/20 1991.11 Wakanohana [Link] 20y 10m 1963/12/31 1984.11 Konishiki [Link] 20y 10m 1962/10/09 1983.09 Onokuni [Link] 20y 10m 1960/08/08 1981.07 Hokutenyu [Link] 20y 10m 1944/02/05 1965.01 Tamanoumi [Link] 20y 11m 1950/03/19 1971.03 Daiju [Link] 20y 11m 1971/05/02 1992.05 Musashimaru [Link] --------------------------------------------------- 21y 3m 1944/07/20 1965.11 Hasegawa [Link] 21y 3m 1996/07/04 2017.11 x Onosho [Link] 21y 4m 1963/08/12 1985.01 Futahaguro [Link] 21y 4m 1996/08/05 2018.01 x Takakeisho [Link] 21y 5m 1971/01/27 1992.07 Tomoefuji [Link] 21y 6m 1971/10/27 1993.05 Takanonami [Link] 21y 6m 1992/10/11 2014.05 x Chiyootori [Link] 21y 6m 1993/04/07 2014.11 x Ichinojo [Link] 21y 6m 1953/04/03 1974.11 Wakanohana [Link] 21y 7m 1967/03/16 1988.11 Akinoshima [Link] 21y 9m 1972/07/24 1994.05 Kaio [Link] 21y 9m 1969/05/08 1991.03 Akebono [Link] 21y 11m 1948/11/12 1970.11 Kurohimeyama [Link] 21y 11m 1953/03/09 1975.03 Kirinji [Link] --------------------------------------------------- 22y 0m 1976/04/29 1998.05 Chiyotaikai [Link] 22y 0m 1983/02/19 2005.03 Kotooshu [Link] 22y 0m 1972/02/14 1994.03 Musoyama [Link] 22y 0m 1984/04/14 2006.05 Harumafuji [Link] 22y 0m 1963/10/05 1985.11 Kotogaume [Link] 22y 1m 1987/03/09 2009.05 Tochiozan [Link] 22y 2m 1968/06/08 1990.09 Kotonishiki [Link] 22y 4m 1948/02/04 1970.07 Mienoumi [Link] 22y 5m 1977/07/28 2000.01 Miyabiyama [Link] 22y 6m 1959/04/08 1981.11 Daijuyama [Link] 22y 6m 1986/04/06 2008.11 Goeido [Link] 22y 8m 1987/10/13 2010.07 x Tochinoshin [Link] 22y 11m 1945/03/09 1968.03 Maenoyama [Link] --------------------------------------------------- 23y 0m 1953/02/27 1976.03 Kaneshiro [Link] 23y 0m 1961/06/18 1984.07 Sakahoko [Link] 23y 0m 1955/06/01 1978.07 Chiyonofuji [Link] 23y 1m 1984/01/30 2007.03 Kotoshogiku [Link] 23y 1m 1940/11/26 1964.01 Kotozakura [Link] 23y 3m 1991/11/29 2015.03 x Terunofuji [Link] 23y 3m 1960/07/06 1983.11 Asahifuji [Link] 23y 4m 1976/02/06 1999.07 Chiyotenzan [Link] 23y 6m 1990/02/28 2013.09 x Takayasu [Link] 23y 7m 1967/09/28 1991.05 Takatoriki [Link] 23y 7m 1974/03/21 1997.11 Dejima [Link] 23y 7m 1948/11/18 1972.07 Kongo [Link] 23y 8m 1974/02/26 1997.11 Tochinonada [Link] 23y 8m 1958/12/19 1982.09 Toryu [Link] 23y 8m 1985/08/10 2009.05 x Kakuryu [Link] 23y 9m 1984/11/05 2008.09 Baruto [Link] 23y 9m 1944/09/03 1968.07 Tochiazuma [Link] 23y 10m 1983/06/29 2007.05 Toyonoshima [Link] 23y 10m 1992/12/25 2016.11 x Mitakeumi [Link] 23y 10m 1956/04/18 1980.03 Ozutsu [Link] 23y 10m 1972/02/16 1996.01 Tosanoumi [Link] 23y 10m 1956/12/07 1980.11 Hoo [Link] 23y 11m 1943/11/15 1967.11 Futagodake [Link] 23y 11m 1977/09/15 2001.09 Tamanoshima [Link] 23y 11m 1948/01/11 1972.01 Wajima [Link] 23y 11m 1973/03/08 1997.03 Kyokushuzan [Link] 23y 11m 1962/09/02 1986.09 Mitoizumi [Link] --------------------------------------------------- 24y 1m 1948/11/16 1973.01 Masuiyama [Link] 24y 2m 1948/02/16 1972.05 Kaiketsu [Link] 24y 3m 1976/07/10 2000.11 Wakanosato [Link] 24y 4m 1942/06/20 1966.11 Daikirin [Link] 24y 4m 1955/12/09 1980.05 Asashio [Link] 24y 5m 1937/11/30 1962.05 Toyokuni [Link] 24y 5m 1952/09/29 1977.03 Takanosato [Link] 24y 5m 1970/03/21 1994.09 Hamanoshima [Link] 24y 6m 1954/10/31 1979.05 Tochiakagi [Link] 24y 6m 1948/02/09 1972.09 Fujizakura [Link] 24y 7m 1943/01/12 1967.09 Mutsuarashi [Link] 24y 8m 1937/08/18 1962.05 Yutakayama [Link] 24y 8m 1976/04/11 2001.01 Kotomitsuki [Link] 24y 8m 1976/04/02 2001.01 Takanowaka [Link] 24y 10m 1947/10/22 1972.09 Yutakayama [Link] 24y 10m 1981/08/07 2006.07 Asasekiryu [Link] 24y 11m 1962/07/30 1987.07 Ryogoku [Link] --------------------------------------------------- 25y 0m 1980/08/28 2005.09 Futeno [Link] 25y 0m 1987/02/23 2012.03 Gagamaru [Link] 25y 0m 1991/04/02 2016.05 x Kotoyuki [Link] 25y 1m 1962/05/22 1987.07 Tochinowaka [Link] 25y 1m 1957/01/12 1982.03 Wakashimazu [Link] 25y 1m 1991/11/05 2017.01 x Shodai [Link] 25y 1m 1994/05/04 2019.07 x Abi [Link] 25y 2m 1952/12/16 1978.03 Kurama [Link] 25y 3m 1968/05/15 1993.09 Kotonowaka [Link] 25y 3m 1975/07/05 2000.11 Hayateumi [Link] 25y 4m 1949/06/20 1974.11 Arase [Link] 25y 4m 1944/06/16 1969.11 Takamiyama [Link] 25y 5m 1956/07/19 1982.01 Sadanoumi [Link] 25y 5m 1981/03/10 2006.09 Kokkai [Link] 25y 5m 1972/01/07 1997.07 Tamakasuga [Link] 25y 6m 1947/04/25 1972.11 Asahikuni [Link] 25y 6m 1978/08/12 2004.03 Kakizoe [Link] 25y 7m 1967/05/07 1993.01 Daishoho [Link] 25y 7m 1994/03/01 2019.11 x Asanoyama [Link] 25y 8m 1964/10/28 1990.07 Kotofuji [Link] 25y 8m 1961/06/27 1987.03 Masurao [Link] 25y 8m 1986/10/22 2012.07 x Myogiryu [Link] 25y 8m 1958/02/15 1983.11 Tagaryu [Link] 25y 9m 1988/11/14 2014.09 x Chiyotairyu [Link] 25y 11m 1969/03/19 1995.03 Naminohana [Link] 25y 11m 1978/03/18 2004.03 Shimotori [Link] 25y 11m 1994/11/14 2020.11 x Takanosho [Link] 25y 11m 1980/03/09 2006.03 Roho [Link] 25y 11m 1971/07/08 1997.07 Oginishiki [Link] --------------------------------------------------- 26y 0m 1988/08/07 2014.09 x Jokoryu [Link] 26y 0m 1963/02/02 1989.03 Terao [Link] 26y 1m 1993/11/10 2020.01 x Daieisho [Link] 26y 2m 1986/06/19 2012.09 x Aoiyama [Link] 26y 3m 1976/05/12 2002.09 Takamisakari [Link] 26y 4m 1961/04/17 1987.09 Maenoshin [Link] 26y 4m 1957/08/15 1984.01 Koboyama [Link] 26y 4m 1960/12/06 1987.05 Hananoumi [Link] 26y 5m 1962/07/01 1989.01 Misugisato [Link] 26y 6m 1942/02/20 1968.09 Wakafutase [Link] 26y 6m 1968/02/17 1994.09 Mainoumi [Link] 26y 7m 1984/01/31 2010.09 Aran [Link] 26y 7m 1992/07/15 2019.03 x Hokutofuji [Link] 26y 7m 1940/07/01 1967.03 Fukunohana [Link] 26y 8m 1977/10/31 2004.07 Hokutoriki [Link] 26y 8m 1963/10/09 1990.07 Takanofuji [Link] 26y 9m 1949/11/24 1976.09 Tamanofuji [Link] 26y 9m 1948/11/14 1975.09 Aobajo [Link] 26y 10m 1946/06/30 1973.05 Haguroiwa [Link] 26y 10m 1952/06/12 1979.05 Kaiki [Link] 26y 10m 1949/04/02 1976.03 Washuyama [Link] 26y 11m 1966/03/08 1993.03 Wakashoyo [Link] --------------------------------------------------- 27y 1m 1983/05/05 2010.07 Hakuba [Link] 27y 3m 1974/09/13 2002.01 Kyokutenho [Link] 27y 5m 1979/09/10 2007.03 Tokitenku [Link] 27y 5m 1951/05/04 1978.11 Banryuyama [Link] 27y 6m 1990/10/19 2018.05 x Endo [Link] 27y 7m 1968/09/10 1996.05 Asahiyutaka [Link] 27y 7m 1976/03/02 2003.11 Iwakiyama [Link] 27y 8m 1973/02/28 2000.11 Tochinohana [Link] 27y 8m 1959/04/03 1987.01 Kirishima [Link] 27y 9m 1955/03/29 1983.01 Oyutaka [Link] 27y 9m 1985/07/29 2013.05 Okinoumi [Link] 27y 9m 1948/07/02 1976.05 Kitaseumi [Link] 27y 10m 1967/06/27 1995.05 Kenko [Link] 27y 10m 1959/12/24 1987.11 Jingaku [Link] 27y 10m 1984/02/24 2012.01 Wakakoyu [Link] 27y 10m 1964/10/14 1992.09 Kyokudozan [Link] --------------------------------------------------- 28y 0m 1986/10/11 2014.11 x Ikioi [Link] 28y 0m 1978/10/03 2006.11 Aminishiki [Link] 28y 2m 1951/04/29 1979.07 Tamakiyama [Link] 28y 2m 1958/04/25 1986.07 Tochitsukasa [Link] 28y 3m 1948/05/04 1976.09 Wakajishi [Link] 28y 4m 1987/02/18 2015.07 x Takarafuji [Link] 28y 5m 1951/05/13 1979.11 Dewanohana [Link] 28y 6m 1973/04/17 2001.11 Kaiho [Link] 28y 7m 1951/05/13 1980.01 Kurosegawa [Link] 28y 7m 1990/11/10 2019.07 x Ryuden [Link] 28y 8m 1979/06/21 2008.03 Takekaze [Link] 28y 8m 1950/04/03 1979.01 Aobayama [Link] 28y 9m 1972/05/12 2001.03 Wakanoyama [Link] 28y 10m 1984/02/09 2013.01 x Shohozan [Link] --------------------------------------------------- 29y 1m 1974/07/04 2003.09 Toki [Link] 29y 2m 1964/12/14 1994.03 Daizen [Link] 29y 4m 1950/02/28 1979.07 Futatsuryu [Link] 29y 4m 1986/12/18 2016.05 x Kaisei [Link] 29y 6m 1964/06/23 1994.01 Tomonohana [Link] 29y 8m 1951/04/10 1981.01 Masudayama [Link] 29y 9m 1961/03/01 1991.01 Takamisugi [Link] 29y 11m 1948/01/04 1978.01 Oshio [Link] --------------------------------------------------- 30y 3m 1984/11/16 2015.03 x Tamawashi [Link] 30y 4m 1956/10/29 1987.03 Daitetsu [Link] 30y 6m 1981/04/16 2011.11 Homasho [Link] 32y 1m 1982/03/19 2014.05 Yoshikaze [Link] 33y 1m 1956/03/21 1989.05 Itai [Link] 33y 3m 1954/07/22 1987.11 Tamaryu [Link] 33y 6m 1962/04/26 1995.11 Kotoinazuma [Link] 4 15 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yamanashi 3,903 Posted January 31, 2021 Thanks, this is a real gem of a document. Speaking as a newbie (< 5 years following Sumo), seeing names like Chiyootori and Toyonoshima give context to the threads on "ex-sekitori still trying to get back", and "rikishi retiring this basho." I'm prodded to go to the db and find out about these guys, which enriches my experience of Ozumo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RabidJohn 1,855 Posted January 31, 2021 +1 for that. Thanks, Pierre. I was unsurprised to find Kirishima (one of my faves back in the day - saw him at London in 1991) confirmed as the ozeki with the oldest sanyaku debut. I was surprised to find Asanoyama as 'runner up'. I think of him as being young, probably because of his relatively short time in ozumo since his Sd100 start. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Katooshu 3,332 Posted January 31, 2021 And great info to keep in mind when evaluating the endless stream of supposed ozeki prospects.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reonito 1,519 Posted January 31, 2021 12 hours ago, Asashosakari said: Interpret at your leisure. And then there's Onishiki. Makes komusubi in his second top-division tournament due to a combination of good banzuke luck and what looks like an odd over-promotion (how did he get the slot over Mienoumi/Takamiyama?), promptly goes 3-12, spends the next 15 years bouncing between Makuuchi and Juryo, never reaching san'yaku again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Benihana 1,937 Posted January 31, 2021 Sorry, to veer off topic, but Ouchiyama is probably the best shikona i've ever heard. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sahaven111 178 Posted January 31, 2021 Trivia: this is the 1000th post in the thread ;-) 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Benihana 1,937 Posted January 31, 2021 19 minutes ago, sahaven111 said: Trivia: this is the 1000th post in the thread Not sorry to correct you, but that "honour" goes to my post, your's was the 1000th reply ;) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryafuji 815 Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Reonito said: And then there's Onishiki. Makes komusubi in his second top-division tournament due to a combination of good banzuke luck and what looks like an odd over-promotion (how did he get the slot over Mienoumi/Takamiyama?), promptly goes 3-12, spends the next 15 years bouncing between Makuuchi and Juryo, never reaching san'yaku again. "Banzuke luck" is a harsh way to describe the reward for becoming the first rikishi ever to win all three sansho in the same tournament, plus scoring 11 wins and getting a kinboshi in his debut. Sure it was a big promotion, but you can't say he hadn't shown potential. (It was a serious back injury and diabetes that were largely responsible for him failing to reach sanyaku again.) Edited January 31, 2021 by ryafuji 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sahaven111 178 Posted February 1, 2021 2 hours ago, Benihana said: Not sorry to correct you, but that "honour" goes to my post, your's was the 1000th reply ;) I was aware of that ;) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yamanashi 3,903 Posted February 1, 2021 4 hours ago, Benihana said: Sorry, to veer off topic, but Ouchiyama is probably the best shikona i've ever heard. Hard to beat. I internally snicker every time I see "Ichiyamamoto", but I think that's probably just me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
