Gurowake

Trivia bits

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2 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Hey, Hattorizakura does valuable service at the bum end of the banzuke. He's your guaranteed match thrower without having to mention those dirty words.

You don't even have to think those dirty words.  It's not paranoia to look at some of today's Makuuchi bouts and think "wow, that guy sure was suspiciously inept in losing to that 7-7 fellow", but you can be dang well sure that Hattorizakura isn't letting off the gas in his matches.

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4 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

You don't even have to think those dirty words.  It's not paranoia to look at some of today's Makuuchi bouts and think "wow, that guy sure was suspiciously inept in losing to that 7-7 fellow", but you can be dang well sure that Hattorizakura isn't letting off the gas in his matches.

Now that you've mentioned that Hattorizakura goes all out, it just becomes sadder that Hattorizakura is still probably the rikishi you run the lowest risk of injury in fighting. That's even though I think just avoiding the James Bond is enough (0-0-7, geddit? har har har) for people trying to do the Ryuden and avoid going banzuke-gai.

Edited by Seiyashi

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2 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Now that you've mentioned that Hattorizakura goes all out, it just becomes sadder that Hattorizakura is probably the rikishi you run the lowest risk of injury in fighting. That's even though I think just avoiding the James Bond is enough (0-0-7, geddit? har har har) for people trying to do the Ryuden and avoid going banzuke-gai.

Some of the Hatt addicts on the Forum will know this better, but I recall him saying he'd be a little sad for the rikishi who lose to him.  Having said that, the video tells the tale: if you can stand on one leg and mostly crouch pre-tachiai, you can get a shiriboshi against Hattorizakura.  That's the only reason an Oyakata would risk sending out someone who should be healing -- to get that win and stay off the BG.

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1 minute ago, Yamanashi said:
7 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Now that you've mentioned that Hattorizakura goes all out, it just becomes sadder that Hattorizakura is probably the rikishi you run the lowest risk of injury in fighting. That's even though I think just avoiding the James Bond is enough (0-0-7, geddit? har har har) for people trying to do the Ryuden and avoid going banzuke-gai.

Some of the Hatt addicts on the Forum will know this better, but I recall him saying he'd be a little sad for the rikishi who lose to him.  Having said that, the video tells the tale: if you can stand on one leg and mostly crouch pre-tachiai, you can get a shiriboshi against Hattorizakura.  That's the only reason an Oyakata would risk sending out someone who should be healing -- to get that win and stay off the BG.

Yeah, I remember some real horror examples like Baraki (the retired one, might have been confused with Bariki) where they could barely walk and still came off with the win. It will be a sad day for people in peril of going banzuke-gai when HZ finally retires.

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1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:
1 hour ago, Yamanashi said:

That's the only reason an Oyakata would risk sending out someone who should be healing -- to get that win and stay off the BG.

Yeah, I remember some real horror examples like Baraki (the retired one, might have been confused with Bariki) where they could barely walk and still came off with the win. It will be a sad day for people in peril of going banzuke-gai when HZ finally retires.


Just to clarify, a win is not needed to remain on the banzuke, just a contested bout. See the last few years of Kitasatsuma's career.

A fusenpai however doesn't save you, so from this basho Haruku and Sawaisamu will fall off the banzuke (assuming they aren't retiring).

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9 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:
1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:
1 hour ago, Yamanashi said:

That's the only reason an Oyakata would risk sending out someone who should be healing -- to get that win and stay off the BG.

Yeah, I remember some real horror examples like Baraki (the retired one, might have been confused with Bariki) where they could barely walk and still came off with the win. It will be a sad day for people in peril of going banzuke-gai when HZ finally retires.


Just to clarify, a win is not needed to remain on the banzuke, just a contested bout. See the last few years of Kitasatsuma's career.

A fusenpai however doesn't save you, so from this basho Haruku and Sawaisamu will fall off the banzuke (assuming they aren't retiring).

So just to be crystal clear:

  1. A James Bond (yes, I'm going to make this a thing) will make you go banzuke-gai.
  2. A 0-1-6 fusenpai will make you go banzuke-gai.
  3. A 0-1-6 actual fought loss will save you from banzuke-gai - so you could lose to Hattorizakura and still stay on the banzuke?

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1 minute ago, Seiyashi said:

A James Bond (yes, I'm going to make this a thing) will make you go banzuke-gai.

License to chill.

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28 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:

Just to clarify, a win is not needed to remain on the banzuke, just a contested bout. See the last few years of Kitasatsuma's career.

Interesting that he went Mz again just one basho. As I understand it, that's just one's entry into sumo where you get recruited by a stable. So I guess you need to go through that again if you go Bg, even if you're already part of a stable?

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9 minutes ago, dada78641 said:
40 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:

Just to clarify, a win is not needed to remain on the banzuke, just a contested bout. See the last few years of Kitasatsuma's career.

Interesting that he went Mz again just one basho. As I understand it, that's just one's entry into sumo where you get recruited by a stable. So I guess you need to go through that again if you go Bg, even if you're already part of a stable?

Yes. Hence the expedient of coming back for one bout in Jk just to avoid going Bg and having to redo Mz. In fact, it's so expedient, Hattorizakura has been shanghaied in to fight 8 bouts (normally 7) in Jk, multiple times, for these otherwise-Bg rikishi.

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24 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Yes. Hence the expedient of coming back for one bout in Jk just to avoid going Bg and having to redo Mz. In fact, it's so expedient, Hattorizakura has been shanghaied in to fight 8 bouts (normally 7) in Jk, multiple times, for these otherwise-Bg rikishi.

That's not why there are occasionally rikishi at the bottom who get 8 fights.  It's for when there are an odd number of rikishi to pair in the last Round.  This isn't a problem other Rounds, because you can postpone someone's match until the next round, and have them fight twice then.  The reason that Hattorizakura gets so many people just entering for the one bout is that he usually has the least wins of anyone.  He's also likely to be the one picked for the 8th fight since it's generally someone near the bottom of the banzuke, but the choice is probably more made based on what record they could use most, 0, 1, or 2 wins.  They generally don't give an 8th match to someone with 3 or more wins.  He's the only the second one that's consistently lost every match for at least a year and the other guy didn't last nearly as long to have any times that they needed a rikishi to fight an 8th match and want it to be someone with 0 wins.

Edited by Gurowake
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11 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

That's not why there are occasionally rikishi at the bottom who get 8 fights.  It's for when there are an odd number of rikishi to pair in the last Round.  This isn't a problem other Rounds, because you can postpone someone's match until the next round, and have them fight twice then.  The reason that Hattorizakura gets so many people just entering for the one bout is that he usually has the least wins of anyone.  He's also likely to be the one picked for the 8th fight since it's generally someone near the bottom of the banzuke, but the choice is probably more made based on what record they could use most, 0, 1, or 2 wins.  They generally don't give an 8th match to someone with 3 or more wins.  He's the only the second one that's consistently lost every match for at least a year and the other guy didn't last nearly as long to have any times that they needed a rikishi to fight an 8th match and want it to be someone with 0 wins.

+1 Thanks, out of reacts.

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3 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Can we now please go back to the topic...

Yes, your Moderatorship.  But I do think my original post was worthy of this thread; in fact, it epitomizes the thread.

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Takakeisho's woeful start got me looking at other ignominious tsuna runs - specifically, ozeki whose bid for the rope after winning a yusho ended in a makekoshi. Of those who didn't just go kyujo, Kitanofuji in 1967 and Kirishima in 1991 stand out to me - both followed up a 14-1Y with a 5-10! At least Kitanofuji did make it to yokozuna in the end. 

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&form1_rank=O&form1_y=on&form2_rank=O&form2_wins=MK

 

Edited by ryafuji
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In a similar vein, 3+ losses to open a title defense:


by sanyaku winners

4
Takahanada 1992.09 K1w 14-1 -> 1992.11 S1w 10-5
Takakeisho 2020.11 O1e 13-2 -> 2021.01 O1e 0-4...

3+fusenpai
Asashio 1961.03 Yw 13-2 -> 1961.05 Ye 0-4-11
Wakanohana 1995.11 O1w 12-3 -> 1996.01 O1e 0-4-11
Kaio 2001.07 O3e 13-2 -> 2001.09 O1e 0-4-11

3
Chiyotaikai 1999.01 S1e 13-2 -> 1999.03 O1w 3-8-4


by maegashira winners

13
Kyokutenho 2012.05 M7w 12-3 -> 2012.07 M1e 2-13

7
Kongo 1975.07 M1w 13-2 -> 1975.09 S1e 6-9

5
Fujinishiki 1964.07 M9w 14-1 -> 1964.09 Ke 4-11
Tokushoryu 2020.01 M17w 14-1 -> 2020.03 M2w 4-11

4
Dewaminato 1939.01 M17w 13-0 -> 1939.05 Kw 5-10
Takamiyama 1972.07 M4e 13-2 -> 1972.09 S2w 5-10
Kotofuji 1991.07 M13e 14-1 -> 1991.09 K2e 4-11

3
Orochiyama 1926.05 M8w 10-1 -> 1927.01 M2e 6-5
Tamanoumi 1957.11 M14e 15-0 -> 1958.01 K1w 5-10
Takahanada 1992.01 M2e 14-1 -> 1992.03 Sw 5-10


(I did not include rikishi who had two losses on the dohyo and a third by fusenpai.)

Edited by Asashosakari
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500 Yusho: 309 by Yokozuna, 121 by Ozeki, 29 by Sekiwake, 9 by Komosubi, 14 by M1-M5, 8 by M6-M10, 10 by M11-M17.  No yusho by an M10, M11, M15 or M16 [of course, 3 by M17's].

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2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

BTW, was it mentioned at the time that the November tournament was the 500th of the yusho era?

63 years between Takamiyama's first and second yusho.  He was more of an ironman than I thought.  :-P

Edited by Asojima
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