Trivia bits

[Seiyashi 4,071]

9 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:

1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

1 hour ago, Yamanashi said:

That's the only reason an Oyakata would risk sending out someone who should be healing -- to get that win and stay off the BG.

Yeah, I remember some real horror examples like Baraki (the retired one, might have been confused with Bariki) where they could barely walk and still came off with the win. It will be a sad day for people in peril of going banzuke-gai when HZ finally retires.

Just to clarify, a win is not needed to remain on the banzuke, just a contested bout. See the last few years of Kitasatsuma's career.

A fusenpai however doesn't save you, so from this basho Haruku and Sawaisamu will fall off the banzuke (assuming they aren't retiring).

So just to be crystal clear:

1. A James Bond (yes, I'm going to make this a thing) will make you go banzuke-gai.
2. A 0-1-6 fusenpai will make you go banzuke-gai.
3. A 0-1-6 actual fought loss will save you from banzuke-gai - so you could lose to Hattorizakura and still stay on the banzuke?

[Yamanashi 3,724]

1 minute ago, Seiyashi said:

A James Bond (yes, I'm going to make this a thing) will make you go banzuke-gai.

License to chill.

[dada78641 884]

28 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:

Just to clarify, a win is not needed to remain on the banzuke, just a contested bout. See the last few years of Kitasatsuma's career.

Interesting that he went Mz again just one basho. As I understand it, that's just one's entry into sumo where you get recruited by a stable. So I guess you need to go through that again if you go Bg, even if you're already part of a stable?

[Seiyashi 4,071]

9 minutes ago, dada78641 said:

40 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:

Just to clarify, a win is not needed to remain on the banzuke, just a contested bout. See the last few years of Kitasatsuma's career.

Interesting that he went Mz again just one basho. As I understand it, that's just one's entry into sumo where you get recruited by a stable. So I guess you need to go through that again if you go Bg, even if you're already part of a stable?

Yes. Hence the expedient of coming back for one bout in Jk just to avoid going Bg and having to redo Mz. In fact, it's so expedient, Hattorizakura has been shanghaied in to fight 8 bouts (normally 7) in Jk, multiple times, for these otherwise-Bg rikishi.

[Gurowake 3,915]

24 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Yes. Hence the expedient of coming back for one bout in Jk just to avoid going Bg and having to redo Mz. In fact, it's so expedient, Hattorizakura has been shanghaied in to fight 8 bouts (normally 7) in Jk, multiple times, for these otherwise-Bg rikishi.

That's not why there are occasionally rikishi at the bottom who get 8 fights.  It's for when there are an odd number of rikishi to pair in the last Round.  This isn't a problem other Rounds, because you can postpone someone's match until the next round, and have them fight twice then.  The reason that Hattorizakura gets so many people just entering for the one bout is that he usually has the least wins of anyone.  He's also likely to be the one picked for the 8th fight since it's generally someone near the bottom of the banzuke, but the choice is probably more made based on what record they could use most, 0, 1, or 2 wins.  They generally don't give an 8th match to someone with 3 or more wins.  He's the only the second one that's consistently lost every match for at least a year and the other guy didn't last nearly as long to have any times that they needed a rikishi to fight an 8th match and want it to be someone with 0 wins.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Gurowake

[Seiyashi 4,071]

11 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

That's not why there are occasionally rikishi at the bottom who get 8 fights.  It's for when there are an odd number of rikishi to pair in the last Round.  This isn't a problem other Rounds, because you can postpone someone's match until the next round, and have them fight twice then.  The reason that Hattorizakura gets so many people just entering for the one bout is that he usually has the least wins of anyone.  He's also likely to be the one picked for the 8th fight since it's generally someone near the bottom of the banzuke, but the choice is probably more made based on what record they could use most, 0, 1, or 2 wins.  They generally don't give an 8th match to someone with 3 or more wins.  He's the only the second one that's consistently lost every match for at least a year and the other guy didn't last nearly as long to have any times that they needed a rikishi to fight an 8th match and want it to be someone with 0 wins.

+1 Thanks, out of reacts.

[Jakusotsu 5,806]

Can we now please go back to the topic...

[Seiyashi 4,071]

[Yamanashi 3,724]

3 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Can we now please go back to the topic...

Yes, your Moderatorship.  But I do think my original post was worthy of this thread; in fact, it epitomizes the thread.

[ryafuji 807]

Takakeisho's woeful start got me looking at other ignominious tsuna runs - specifically, ozeki whose bid for the rope after winning a yusho ended in a makekoshi. Of those who didn't just go kyujo, Kitanofuji in 1967 and Kirishima in 1991 stand out to me - both followed up a 14-1Y with a 5-10! At least Kitanofuji did make it to yokozuna in the end. 

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&form1_rank=O&form1_y=on&form2_rank=O&form2_wins=MK

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by ryafuji

[Asashosakari 18,786]

In a similar vein, 3+ losses to open a title defense:

by sanyaku winners

4
Takahanada 1992.09 K1w 14-1 -> 1992.11 S1w 10-5
Takakeisho 2020.11 O1e 13-2 -> 2021.01 O1e 0-4...

3+fusenpai
Asashio 1961.03 Yw 13-2 -> 1961.05 Ye 0-4-11
Wakanohana 1995.11 O1w 12-3 -> 1996.01 O1e 0-4-11
Kaio 2001.07 O3e 13-2 -> 2001.09 O1e 0-4-11

3
Chiyotaikai 1999.01 S1e 13-2 -> 1999.03 O1w 3-8-4

by maegashira winners

13
Kyokutenho 2012.05 M7w 12-3 -> 2012.07 M1e 2-13

7
Kongo 1975.07 M1w 13-2 -> 1975.09 S1e 6-9

5
Fujinishiki 1964.07 M9w 14-1 -> 1964.09 Ke 4-11
Tokushoryu 2020.01 M17w 14-1 -> 2020.03 M2w 4-11

4
Dewaminato 1939.01 M17w 13-0 -> 1939.05 Kw 5-10
Takamiyama 1972.07 M4e 13-2 -> 1972.09 S2w 5-10
Kotofuji 1991.07 M13e 14-1 -> 1991.09 K2e 4-11

3
Orochiyama 1926.05 M8w 10-1 -> 1927.01 M2e 6-5
Tamanoumi 1957.11 M14e 15-0 -> 1958.01 K1w 5-10
Takahanada 1992.01 M2e 14-1 -> 1992.03 Sw 5-10


(I did not include rikishi who had two losses on the dohyo and a third by fusenpai.)

Edited January 14, 2021 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 18,786]

BTW, was it mentioned at the time that the November tournament was the 500th of the yusho era?

[Yamanashi 3,724]

500 Yusho: 309 by Yokozuna, 121 by Ozeki, 29 by Sekiwake, 9 by Komosubi, 14 by M1-M5, 8 by M6-M10, 10 by M11-M17.  No yusho by an M10, M11, M15 or M16 [of course, 3 by M17's].

[Asojima 2,870]

2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

BTW, was it mentioned at the time that the November tournament was the 500th of the yusho era?

63 years between Takamiyama's first and second yusho.  He was more of an ironman than I thought.  

Edited January 14, 2021 by Asojima

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Rikishi leading makuuchi alone after Day 8 and with a two-win margin, 15-bout tournaments:

1973.11 Y1e Wajima
1980.03 Y1w Kitanoumi
1982.07 Y1e Chiyonofuji
1984.07 O2e Wakashimazu
1998.03 O2e Wakanohana
2003.05 Ye Asashoryu
2003.09 Ye Asashoryu
2005.01 Ye Asashoryu
2013.03 Yw Hakuho
2021.01 M1w Daieisho

Edited January 17, 2021 by Asashosakari

[Sakura 1,472]

11 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Rikishi leading makuuchi alone after Day 8 and with a two-win margin, 15-bout tournaments:

1973.11 Y1e Wajima
1980.03 Y1w Kitanoumi
1982.07 Y1e Chiyonofuji
1984.07 O2e Wakashimazu
1998.03 O2e Wakanohana
2003.05 Ye Asashoryu
2003.09 Ye Asashoryu
2005.01 Ye Asashoryu
2013.03 Yw Hakuho
2021.01 M1w Daieisho

One of these things is not like the others...

[Asashosakari 18,786]

4 minutes ago, Sakura said:

One of these things is not like the others...

That depends on whether Daieisho does what the other 9 did: end up winning the yusho outright. 

I was actually a bit surprised; I expected to find at least one sekiwake or low-ranked maegashira in there, as well.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Asashosakari

[shumitto 418]

Today, while catching up on makushita( thanks mt Fuji, by the way), I was reminded of Daishoho. The most conspicuous thing about him was how unconspicuous his sekitori record actually looks. No double digit finish in 17 outings. Even Kobo, of all people, managed a 10-5 in his 9th "attempt", and Tokushinho in his 15th. Is it some kind of record ?

[Jakusotsu 5,806]

8 minutes ago, shumitto said:

Today, while catching up on makushita( thanks mt Fuji, by the way), I was reminded of Daishoho. The most conspicuous thing about him was how unconspicuous his sekitori record actually looks. No double digit finish in 17 outings. Even Kobo, of all people, managed a 10-5 in his 9th "attempt", and Tokushinho in his 15th. Is it some kind of record ?

Must be running in the "family".

Didn't run any queries for remembering him, and most prominently coming to mind is Wakakosho, so I'm rather shocked to see his 12-3 outlier.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Asanosho looks to be the record-holder at 40 sekitori tournaments without a single double-digit record. Mostly as a maegashira though, where it's somewhat easier to do. (E.g. ultra veteran Terao had 2 double-digits in 17 juryo appearances, but also just 2 in 93 in makuuchi.)

The joint record-holders with primarily juryo-based careers are Asaarashi (31 juryo + 1 makuuchi) and Tamakairiki (24 + 8). For careers spent entirely in juryo it's Sakunobori with 27, albeit back when juryo was larger than today. Dairyu has the modern 13/14-ranks juryo record with 25.

(But since Daishoho was brought up as a current example, I would be remiss if I didn't mention Kitaharima.)

[shumitto 418]

14 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Asanosho (...)

Thank you for the thorough answer. I don't know why I forgot about Kitaharima, but it probably has to do with the fact that his sekitori basho are somewhat scattered in his record, but he is certainly a good name.

[Faustonowaka 112]

Is Akiseyama the oldest ever to have his first kachi-kochi in Makuuchi?

Edited January 23, 2021 by Faustonowaka

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Rikishi aged 30+ for their career-first yusho (any division), post-WWII, ages as of senshuraku of their championship basho:

Age @ Yusho  Rikishi       Birthdate   Basho    Division   Rank   Record
------------------------------------------------------------------------
37y  8m  7d  Kyokutenho    1974/09/13  2012.05  Makuuchi   M7w    12-3 Y
36y  3m  9d  Masudayama    1951/04/10  1987.07  Juryo      J7w    11-4 Y
36y  0m 10d  Oiwato        1981/05/18  2017.05  Makushita  Ms34w   7-0 Y
34y  9m 19d  Sakigake      1986/04/05  2021.01  Makushita  Ms19w   6-1 Y
------------------------------------------------------------------------
32y  6m 12d  Azumaryu      1987/05/12  2019.11  Juryo      J1e    11-4 Y
32y  6m  3d  Edonami       1946/01/13  1978.07  Sandanme   Sd31e   7-0 Y
32y  2m  6d  Bushuyama     1976/05/21  2008.07  Juryo      J8e    12-3 Y
32y  0m 10d  Aichiyama     1922/03/10  1954.03  Juryo      J20w   13-2 Y
------------------------------------------------------------------------
31y 10m 17d  Yohoyama      1960/11/10  1992.09  Sandanme   Sd10w   7-0 Y
31y  9m 24d  Kirishima     1959/04/03  1991.01  Makuuchi   O1e    14-1 Y
31y  7m 22d  Enazakura     1960/07/29  1992.03  Juryo      J8e    11-4 Y
31y  4m 21d  Hienriki      1983/03/06  2014.07  Sandanme   Sd42e   7-0 Y
31y  4m 18d  Tamakasuga    1972/01/07  2003.05  Juryo      J7w    12-3 Y
31y  4m 16d  Yoshio        1974/05/09  2005.09  Sandanme   Sd7e    7-0 Y
31y  4m 13d  Tamao         1981/09/14  2013.01  Jonokuchi  Jk11w   7-0 Y
31y  2m  3d  Hoshiiwato    1955/07/25  1986.09  Makushita  Ms12e   7-0 Y
31y  1m 29d  Hirakagawa    1924/03/31  1955.05  Juryo      J11e   12-3 Y
31y  0m 25d  Hagane        1981/08/29  2012.09  Sandanme   Sd25e   7-0 Y
------------------------------------------------------------------------
30y  9m 15d  Wakasuruga    1978/02/08  2008.11  Jonokuchi  Jk24w   7-0 Y
30y  8m 29d  Tochitsukasa  1958/04/25  1989.01  Juryo      J5w    11-4 Y
30y  7m 14d  Oniarashi     1982/06/13  2013.01  Makushita  Ms1e    7-0 Y
30y  4m 13d  Kotokuni      1978/07/10  2008.11  Makushita  Ms10e   7-0 Y
30y  4m  3d  Tamaryu       1954/07/22  1984.11  Makushita  Ms9w    7-0 Y
30y  3m  7d  Nogami        1990/08/15  2020.11  Jonokuchi  Jk29e   7-0 Y
30y  2m  5d  Azusayumi     1975/07/20  2005.09  Jonokuchi  Jk40w   7-0 Y
30y  2m  2d  Nihozan       1922/03/23  1952.05  Makushita  Ms17e  13-2 Y
30y  1m 22d  Kiryugawa     1923/12/02  1954.01  Juryo      J5e    13-2 Y
30y  1m 16d  Kanenohana    1936/10/11  1966.11  Juryo      J5e    13-2 Y
30y  0m 29d  Ishinriki     1968/12/26  1999.01  Makushita  Ms39e   7-0 Y
30y  0m 22d  Kotoryu       1972/03/02  2002.03  Juryo      J1w    12-3 Y
30y  0m 12d  Seifuriki     1967/03/11  1997.03  Sandanme   Sd2e    7-0 Y
30y  0m  7d  Ryusei        1986/07/17  2016.07  Makushita  Ms44w   7-0 Y

 

[ryafuji 807]

Aminishiki came close to topping that list, losing a juryo playoff in Aki '17 at the age of 38 years and 11 months.

[shumitto 418]

On 25/01/2021 at 13:34, ryafuji said:

Aminishiki came close to topping that list, losing a juryo playoff in Aki '17 at the age of 38 years and 11 months.

To become one of the very few active Oyakata without a Yusho under their belt. He and moto-Dairyu as far as I know. But Dairyu had a very uneventful career record-wise.