Gurowake

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, ryafuji said:

No injury at all - he simply retired at the first sign of weakness. In his case, that was losing to a - gasp! - foreigner (Takamiyama). He was also in line to take over Dewanoumi beya - I think his shisho was becoming the Kyokai Riji-cho at around that time. 

I guess that's better than being forced out due to scandal, which I was unaware of for Asashoryu when I first went through all the banzuke back when I found out about Ozumo.  If you don't know about it, it looks like he retired *immediately* following a basho that he won (although I probably didn't know at the time how soon he normally would have had to decide to retire to be off the next banzuke).  My eye was not keen enough to notice only 41 rikishi on the next Makuuchi banzuke.  At least in Harumafuji's case, it could realistically look like he retired because of continual injuries and despite having just won the last yusho wasn't willing to put in the effort to recuperate again, much like Akebono who retired one basho after his last win because of injury (I don't know when he suffered that injury - Wikipedia is nonspecific) without even fighting another bout.

My non-informed opinion on the matter of Sadanoyama would have been that he simply retired when most of them did then - once they got past their prime they didn't tend to stay on through as many injuries as the more recent Yokozuna have; 30 was a perfectly reasonable age to end one's career on the dohyo (I suppose that opinion is mostly right, though I didn't know the details you provided).  That it had been a long time since Yokozuna retired because of age/injury, and the same for there even being a Japanese Yokozuna, it makes people new to the sport less aware of just how long a leash Kisenosato appeared to have compared to rikishi of comparable careers.  Sure, Takanohana sat out a whole year, but he actually sat out and didn't repeatedly fail to perform, plus was told unambiguously to compete or retire eventually; Kisenosato seemed to be practically begged to not retire by everyone in Japan.  He would have been gone a lot sooner if it wasn't for such a drought, especially given his rather mediocre career for a Yokozuna (which would have been next to Kaio, Konishiki and Takanohana (1?) as one of the best Ozeki careers without having been promoted).

Edited by Gurowake

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10 hours ago, Yubinhaad said:

Asanoyama has won the:

10th Makuuchi yusho by a rikishi from Toyama prefecture, and the first for 103 years, since Tachiyama in 1916 Natsu.

9th Makuuchi yusho by a rikishi with no sanyaku experience, and the first for 58 years, following Sadanoyama in 1961 Natsu.

First Makuuchi yusho by a rikishi who started as a Sandanme Tsukedashi.

 


Yusho winners with no sanyaku experience

Basho		Winner

1909 Natsu	M7e Takamiyama
1914 Natsu	M14e Ryogoku
1922 Haru	M4e Tsurugahama
1926 Natsu	M8w Orochiyama
1931 October	M4e Ayazakura
1945 Natsu	M1e Bishuyama
1960 Natsu	M4w Wakamisugi
1961 Natsu	M13w Sadanoyama
2019 Natsu	M8w Asanoyama

 

Out of the yusho without sanyaku experience, Asanoyama is the first to secure the tournament before the final day!

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18 hours ago, Gurowake said:

I guess that's better than being forced out due to scandal, which I was unaware of for Asashoryu when I first went through all the banzuke back when I found out about Ozumo.  If you don't know about it, it looks like he retired *immediately* following a basho that he won (although I probably didn't know at the time how soon he normally would have had to decide to retire to be off the next banzuke).  My eye was not keen enough to notice only 41 rikishi on the next Makuuchi banzuke.  At least in Harumafuji's case, it could realistically look like he retired because of continual injuries and despite having just won the last yusho wasn't willing to put in the effort to recuperate again, much like Akebono who retired one basho after his last win because of injury (I don't know when he suffered that injury - Wikipedia is nonspecific) without even fighting another bout.

My non-informed opinion on the matter of Sadanoyama would have been that he simply retired when most of them did then - once they got past their prime they didn't tend to stay on through as many injuries as the more recent Yokozuna have; 30 was a perfectly reasonable age to end one's career on the dohyo (I suppose that opinion is mostly right, though I didn't know the details you provided).  That it had been a long time since Yokozuna retired because of age/injury, and the same for there even being a Japanese Yokozuna, it makes people new to the sport less aware of just how long a leash Kisenosato appeared to have compared to rikishi of comparable careers.  Sure, Takanohana sat out a whole year, but he actually sat out and didn't repeatedly fail to perform, plus was told unambiguously to compete or retire eventually; Kisenosato seemed to be practically begged to not retire by everyone in Japan.  He would have been gone a lot sooner if it wasn't for such a drought, especially given his rather mediocre career for a Yokozuna (which would have been next to Kaio, Konishiki and Takanohana (1?) as one of the best Ozeki careers without having been promoted).

Akebono retired due to chronic knee and back problems, I’m not sure if there was a specific injury that caused him to pull out in January 2001.

You’re right that 30 was not particularly young for a yokozuna to retire in those days but still, he had just won the previous two tournaments. It was definitely a shock decision. 

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1 minute ago, ryafuji said:

Akebono retired due to chronic knee and back problems, I’m not sure if there was a specific injury that caused him to pull out in January 2001.

If I remember correctly it was the knee problems that were cited for not participating in January of 2001.

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Asanoyama is now the only rikishi (so far) to win the "We're Totally Shoving This In The Back Of A Closet And Forgetting About It After Next Year" Trophy.

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3 hours ago, Sue said:

...Forgetting About It After Next Year" Trophy.

Or 2024.;-)

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On 25/05/2019 at 14:35, Yubinhaad said:

Asanoyama has won the:

10th Makuuchi yusho by a rikishi from Toyama prefecture, and the first for 103 years, since Tachiyama in 1916 Natsu.

9th Makuuchi yusho by a rikishi with no sanyaku experience, and the first for 58 years, following Sadanoyama in 1961 Natsu.

First Makuuchi yusho by a rikishi who started as a Sandanme Tsukedashi.

And the 400th makuuchi yusho of the 15-day era of tournaments.

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Posted (edited)
On 26/05/2019 at 11:03, Sue said:

Asanoyama is now the only rikishi (so far) to win the "We're Totally Shoving This In The Back Of A Closet And Forgetting About It After Next Year" Trophy.

I wouldn't count on that. Not many people know who  Henry William Paget, 1st Marquess of Anglesey was but  the America's Cup became quite a big deal.

The President's Cup in golf started with Clinton but every President after has embraced it. I doubt future presidents will ignore this sumo cup just because Trump started it.

I hope they don;t anyway.

Edited by Rocks

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Posted (edited)

This basho, Natsu 2019, was only the second time in the records where 5 sansho were awarded to maegashira rikishi:

Gino-sho M5 Ryuden
Shukun-sho M8 Asanoyama
Kanto-sho M4 Abi, M8 Asanoyama and M12 Shimanoumi

The only other time it happened, in Aki 1991, sansho winners were:
Gino-sho M3 Wakahanada (Future Yokozuna Wakanohana) and M12 Mainoumi
Shukun-sho M3 Wakahanada
Kanto-sho M1 Tochinowaka and M5 Kotonishiki

However in this Natsu basho 2019, all sansho winners have no sanyaku experience (as well as the yusho winner), I guess this is a particularly rare occurrence to have all price winners without sanyaku experience.

Edited by Nantonoyama
correction
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50 minutes ago, Nantonoyama said:

This basho, Natsu 2019, was only the second time in the records where 5 sansho were awarded to maegashira rikishi:

Gino-sho M5 Ryuden
Shukun-sho M8 Asanoyama
Kanto-sho M4 Abi, M8 Asanoyama and M4 Abi

The only other time it happened, in Aki 1991, sansho winners were:
Gino-sho M3 Wakahanada (Future Yokozuna Wakanohana) and M12 Mainoumi
Shukun-sho M3 Wakahanada
Kanto-sho M1 Tochinowaka and M5 Kotonishiki

However in this Natsu basho 2019, all sansho winners have no sanyaku experience (as well as the yusho winner), I guess this is a particularly rare occurrence to have all price winners without sanyaku experience.

You listed Abi twice - Shimanoumi was the the third winner of the Kanto-sho.

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35 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

You listed Abi twice - Shimanoumi was the the third winner of the Kanto-sho.

Indeed he was

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Posted (edited)

Somehow, with Hakuho's fusen-sho today, I suddenly thought that I cannot remember a whole lot of occasions when a Yokozuna received a freebie so late in the basho.

Which turned out to be right, as it happened only twice before in my sumo viewing lifetime. The next thesis would have been, that it is rarer than for other parts of the basho, but that turned out to be wrong.

It's only a strange outlier that no Yokozuna ever received a fusen-sho on a day 14.

Question: I found this curious case in the process. Was this just an anomaly or communication error, or did the handling of fusen-pai / total absences change over time?

Edited by yorikiried by fate
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20 minutes ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Question: I found this curious case in the process. Was this just an anomaly or communication error, or did the handling of fusen-pai / total absences change over time?


As I understand it, Banjaku hurt his knee during a long bout against Tamanishiki, and was unable to resume after it was halted for a mizu-iri. The next day's torikumi having already been set, he wasn't able to participate and got the second fusenpai. After a day off he rejoined the basho, but evidently his knee was in bad shape and he lost his last four bouts. It was his only basho in a sanyaku rank.

In the very next basho, Banjaku fought another long bout against Ozeki Kagamiiwa. The bout was halted for a mizu-iri and, still with no result, again for a ni-ban-go torinaoshi. The ageing Kagamiiwa was exhausted and couldn't participate (he would retire after the following basho), but in an admirable display of sportsmanship, Banjaku declined to accept his forfeiture and so the bout was recorded as a double fusenpai.

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2 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:


As I understand it, Banjaku hurt his knee during a long bout against Tamanishiki, and was unable to resume after it was halted for a mizu-iri. The next day's torikumi having already been set, he wasn't able to participate and got the second fusenpai. After a day off he rejoined the basho, but evidently his knee was in bad shape and he lost his last four bouts. It was his only basho in a sanyaku rank.

In the very next basho, Banjaku fought another long bout against Ozeki Kagamiiwa. The bout was halted for a mizu-iri and, still with no result, again for a ni-ban-go torinaoshi. The ageing Kagamiiwa was exhausted and couldn't participate (he would retire after the following basho), but in an admirable display of sportsmanship, Banjaku declined to accept his forfeiture and so the bout was recorded as a double fusenpai.

You beat me to it by about 30 seconds. I was just confirming it on the Japanese Wikipedia. :)

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Posted (edited)
On 27/03/2018 at 00:53, Jakusotsu said:

Ok, I restarted my calculation with the correct distance values, and now it yields 7 instances since 1995 with 39 half-ranks apart:

M8w Higonoumi, Kyushu 1995, day 12 Y1e Takanohana, day 13 M15w Aogiyama
M7w Asanosho, Hatsu 1996, day 10 Y1e Takanohana, day 11 M16e Tamakasuga
M12e Tochinohana, Natsu 2000, day 14 O2w Takanonami, day 15 J3w Takamisakari
M5e Tochisakae, Natsu 2001, day 11 Y1e Takanohana, day 12 M15e Kyokushuzan
S1e Kotooshu, Aki 2005, day 13 Y1e Asashoryu, day 14 M16w Kisenosato
O1w Chiyotaikai, Kyushu 2007, day 13 M16e Baruto, day 14 Y1e Hakuho
M6w Toyonoshima, Kyushu 2012, day 10 Y1w Harumafuji, day 11 M15w Chiyotairyu

Kaisei with 33 is shared rank 89.

Oh, and by the way, Hokutofuji went an even greater distance than Kaisei this basho with M16e Daiamami on day 12 and S1e Mitakeumi on day 13 (34 half-ranks).

If I'm correct, we will have a new leader with

Myogiryu M7e, Nagoya 2019, day 12 M16w Terutsuyoshi, day 13 Y1w Hakuho.

That's a 40 half-rank difference.

@yorikiried by fate asked this question originally. 

Edited by Sakura
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Day 13: Jk27e Marusho vs. Jd 98e Adachi.

Adachi has had 6 wins only three times before in his 17-year career, as he fights against new Jk Marusho from Narutobeya.

Adachi began his career in the old Narutobeya, before moving to Tagonourabeya.

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First time both rikishi on the last makuuchi rank got 10+ wins?

I couldn't find a counter example.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

First time both rikishi on the last makuuchi rank got 10+ wins?

I couldn't find a counter example.

I posted yesterday it was the first time since 1959 (I think) that two M16s got 10+, but in those days that wasn’t the bottom rank as the division was much larger. We only have to go back to Natsu last year to find an M17 and M16 with 10, but it was the M16e so I suppose that disqualifies it. Though for bonus trivia the M15w also got 10, meaning three of the bottom four managed double-digit records. Aminishiki only managed four wins at M16w.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Banzuke.aspx?b=201805

I’ve no idea how to search in such a way that identifies when a rank is bottom of the banzuke. It would be easy if the division was always the same size and always balanced as it is right now.

Edited by Eikokurai

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

First time both rikishi on the last makuuchi rank got 10+ wins?

I couldn't find a counter example.

Does this count? Not last rank, but last two spots.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Banzuke.aspx?b=199311


Also noteworthy: This one was a senshuraku loss away from having 10+ in the last four spots.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Banzuke.aspx?b=197603

Edited by Asashosakari
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http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&showhighest=on&form1_year=>1900&form1_jd=on&sort_by=high

The above is a query of all rikishi ranked in Jonidan on any banzuke since 1901.  They are sorted by "highest rank", which fortunately for what I was looking for, is defined by the database as the highest rank up to the point in time of their banzuke appearance that is part of the result of the query.  Thus, it shows how high someone came down from, not how high they eventually reached.  Perusing this query, we see that the highest anyone who has fell to Jonidan from Makuuchi has risen back to is Ms2, and that's Towanoyama.  Going a bit further down, you will find the the rikishi who was the highest ranked to drop to Jonidan and then reach a higher rank is Amuru, who was injured at J3, fell to Jonidan, then made it to Makuuchi.

Currently there are three rikishi in the lower divisions that were recently in Jonidan and were previously in Makuuchi: Terunofuji, Amakaze, and Homarefuji.  The latter is old enough that his return to sekitori status seems doubtful, but the other two are young enough that they could conceivably break those two records of highest rank reached after falling from Makuuchi to Jonidan, and highest rank returned to after falling to Jonidan in between.

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http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&showhighest=on&form1_year=>1900&form1_jk=on&sort_by=high

Same as above but for Jonokuchi.  Only former Makuuchi to drop to Jonokuchi and continue to fight has been Masunoyama, so he obviously holds all the records for falls from Makuuchi.  The record for high rank in Juryo dropping to Jonokuchi and returning is J12, accomplished by Hokutokuni and Ryuden, although Ryuden did reach a higher rank on his return.

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Posted (edited)

Inspired by this post - longest time periods between two ozeki yusho (measured in other-rank yusho basho in between), for the yusho era since 1909.

24 1977.05 Wakamisugi  - 1981.07 Chiyonofuji
16 1970.01 Kitanofuji  - 1972.11 Kotozakura
15 2017.01 Kisenosato  - ongoing
12 1965.01 Sadanoyama  - 1967.03 Kitanofuji
11 2009.05 Harumafuji  - 2011.07 Harumafuji
10 1923.05 Tsunenohana - 1928.01 Hitachiiwa
10 1961.09 Taiho       - 1963.07 Kitabayama
10 1988.01 Asahifuji   - 1989.11 Konishiki
10 1999.05 Musashimaru - 2001.03 Kaio
10 2014.03 Kakuryu     - 2016.01 Kotoshogiku
 9 1975.09 Takanohana  - 1977.05 Wakamisugi
 9 1985.07 Hokutenyu   - 1987.03 Hokutoumi
 8 2012.09 Harumafuji  - 2014.03 Kakuryu
 7 1937.05 Futabayama  - 1941.05 Haguroyama
 7 2004.09 Kaio        - 2006.01 Tochiazuma

Gaps of 6 basho have happened 8 times, 5-basho gaps another 6 times, so going a year from one ozeki yusho to the next hasn't been especially rare.


Edit: I've highlighted those ozeki whose gap-starting yusho resulted in their yokozuna promotion.

Edited by Asashosakari
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1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

 

Gaps of 6 basho have happened 8 times, 5-basho gaps another 6 times, so going a year from one ozeki yusho to the next hasn't been especially rare.

I didn't have time to check the bottom third of the list, but it seems that the main reason for the long gaps between ozeki yusho are (unsurprisingly) winning yokozuna performances. The #2 on your list did end with two Maegashira and 2 Sekiwake, but none of the rest that I checked came close to the `anyone-but-an-Ozeki' situation that we have now. That being said, even the current run started with 7 out of 8 yusho by Yokozuna.

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Sorry if this is old, I can't find any note of it:  both Takamiyama (Haru 1974) and Takamisakari (Nagoya 2003) have won 2 kinboshi in the same basho. 

Has anyone won more?

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