Gurowake

Trivia bits

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, chishafuwaku said:

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I'm looking for the rikishi who faced the largest number of different aite in makuuchi - not the aite pairs with the most bouts. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&group_by=rikishi1&m=on&wins1=0&winsopt1=1&wins2=0&winsopt2=1&samed2=on&offset=0

This is actually completely wrong, but the database is now down and I don't know the syntax for what I actually meant.  That query says "0 wins before bout" for each rikishi, but it's referring to the number in the current basho, and thus the results of the query merely count those who participated in the most basho.  The "0 wins before the bout" should be put in the "head to head" section.  Doing that slightly undercounts though because it won't count anyone met first in another division.

Edited by Gurowake
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, this is the intended query: http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&group_by=rikishi1&m=on&hth=1&hthwins1=0&samed2=on&hthwins2=0

If you want to know the correct total, you'll have to look at who everyone met in lower divisions and also in Makuuchi.  But I'm guessing that most rikishi met very few opponents first in the lower divisions compared to Makuuchi if they had a very long career such that they had a lot of different Makuuchi opponents.

Note that there aren't any long-time Ozeki near the top, as they faced a much smaller selection of opponents than those who moved all around the banzuke.  There are a few Ozeki who didn't stay there long though.  The first one Ozeki for any long period was Konishiki at #31, who had a long career after demotion anyway, then Kaio at #44 and Hakuho at #50.

Edited by Gurowake
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

But I'm guessing that most rikishi met very few opponents first in the lower divisions compared to Makuuchi if they had a very long career such that they had a lot of different Makuuchi opponents.

At least for query-leading Kyokutenho that's incorrect - there are a relatively surprising 35 or so different rikishi that he faced in makuuchi but also earlier in a lower division. (By the way, the "rikishi 2 same division as bout" restriction is a bit odd to use here, as it allows for matches where Kyokutenho himself was visiting from juryo, but not matches where he was actually ranked in makuuchi and the opponent was the visitor.)

Anyway, that query does make for a good starting point for finding rikishi who can then be checked individually. Kyokutenho makuuchi-ranked (155), both Kyokutenho and opponent makuuchi-ranked (154, removes Misugisato), Kyokutenho in any makuuchi-torikumi bout (157, adds Konishiki and Kushimaumi). Up to Atenzan to pick his favourite version and check all the other top candidates. ;-) 

(Careful with rikishi who used several shikona while in makuuchi, or who shared their shikona with other historical makuuchi rikishi, e.g. Wakasegawa who's also high in Gurowake's query.)

Edited by Asashosakari
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

 (By the way, the "rikishi 2 same division as bout" restriction is a bit odd to use here, as it allows for matches where Kyokutenho himself was visiting from juryo, but not matches where he was actually ranked in makuuchi and the opponent was the visitor.)

 

That's what he asked for.  The number of Makuuchi aite for rikishi, not the number fought as Makuuchi or fought as a Makuuchi match.  That may not have been what he meant, but that's what he asked for.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Anyway, that query does make for a good starting point for finding rikishi who can then be checked individually. Kyokutenho makuuchi-ranked (155), both Kyokutenho and opponent makuuchi-ranked (154, removes Misugisato), Kyokutenho in any makuuchi-torikumi bout (157, adds Konishiki and Kushimaumi). Up to Atenzan to pick his favourite version and check all the other top candidates. ;-) 

Ah, thanks very much for that. The version I had in mind was the first one you linked - Gurowake's accurate interpretation aside. Side note, Kyokutenhou's career length never ceases to surprise me. I only knew Kushimaumi from the obliterating harite knockout he received from Kyokudouzan in 1993 - which I had assumed had taken place a few years earlier than that. I never thought Kyokutenhou would have faced him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After the talk about full sanyaku clear outs after a basho, I wondered if there had ever been a basho to completely swap S and K, as in Sekiwake all get 7-8 or lucky 6-9 and all Komusubi get KK.

There is one example I can find, Nagoya 1961 http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Banzuke.aspx?b=196107

Unfortunately (???) some maegashira guys also get promoted up into sanyaku (with a total of 4 guys at each rank) to stain it up a bit but I'm saying it counts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's also Natsu 1967 where the 2 sekiwake and 2 komusubi flipped, but again two more maegashira were also promoted to komusubi.

In a similar vein, I like Kyushu 2010: Both S -> K, both K -> M, both M1 -> S.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kakuryu is now in select company as a yokozuna who managed to lose to 5 Y/O in one basho.

But he's outright unique as the only one among them who lost those 5 bouts but no others (i.e. finished 10-5). Oddly, he's also the only one to have done that as ozeki. (It's never happened for a sekiwake or komusubi, but two maegashira did it, too.)

---

And more yokozuna trivia - yokozuna losing exactly one bout each to a yokozuna, an ozeki, a sekiwake, a komusubi, and a maegashira:

Kisenosato, Aki 2018
Kakuryu, Aki 2016
Onokuni, Kyushu 1990
Takanosato, Nagoya 1985
Kitanofuji, Kyushu 1973
Tochinishiki, Hatsu 1959
Minanogawa, Natsu 1936 (6-5 record)

Minanogawa is the only one to face only #1-ranked rikishi as part of his loss slate. Kakuryu and Takanosato also lost to maegashira 1 (the rank with theoretically the most variety), but "missed" losing to a top-ranked ozeki. Onokuni is the only one to lose to his five opponents in ascending rank order.

  • Like 7
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Today Daiamami won the first makuuchi bout between rikishi from Amami Oshima against fellow maegashira 15 (W) Meisei. The winner (by yoritaoshi) hails from Tatsugo Town in the northern part of the island, and his opponent is from Setouchi Town in the south. The career matchup is now 4-1 in Daiamami's favor.

Edited by Otokonoyama
  • Thanks 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Otokonoyama said:

Today Daiamami won the first makuuchi bout between rikishi from Amami Oshima against fellow maegashira 15 (W) Meisei. The winner (by yoritaoshi) hails from Tatsugo Town in the northern part of the island, and his opponent is from Setouchi Town in the south. The career matchup is now 4-1 in Daiamami's favor.

This is why I'm so glad when "Trivia Bits" pops up.  Yes, it is "trivia", but it takes one into the beneath-the-surface world that is so easy to miss.

Is there a real "NorthSide/South Side" rivalry on Amami Oshima, like you see in large cities?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now that Kisenosato has lost his first 4 matches in a row...

The last and only other time this occurred in the modern era (a Yokozuna losing the first 4 matches of a basho, none of which by default) was in Haru 1931 when Yokozuna Miyagiyama  lost his first 4 matches and nevertheless continued the basho. He won his 5th match and finished with 5 wins and 6 losses in the end (this was in the 11 days per basho era). It was Miyagiyama's last basho as an active rikishi. He was listed on the next banzuke, but did not fight again.

Yokozuna Onokuni lost hist first 3 matches during Aki1988, but he went on to win hist 4th match and still managed to get his kachikoshi on the final day...

Yokozuna Asahifuji lost his first 3 matches during Hatsu 1992, but retired after this 3rd loss...

So if Kisenosato returns tomorrow and loses he sets a new negative record (most consecutive losses by a Yokozuna from day 1 of a basho). Also, no Yokozuna (in the modern era, since June 1909, when the yusho system was established) ever went on to fight in another basho after starting with 4 losses, let alone 5...

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Inspired today's bonanza of upsets, I went looking for similar days with a chain of lower-ranked winners in the final bouts. The biggest gem I found was Aki 2006 Day 6 when the last seven bouts were won by the lower ranked rikishi. Including Kisenosato's fusen loss we came close today with six.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tried to look for the oldest ever sai-shusse rikishi, to see where 41 year old Daigonishki ranks

it has to be bg/jk - mz - jk

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&columns=3&n_basho=3&rowcount=5&showbirthdate=on&form1_jk=on&form1_bg=on&form2_mz=on&form3_jk=on&sort_by=birthdate

The age has to be calculated extra

Yubinhaad pointed me to the next error

41 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:

You would have to make it Jk&Bg - Mz - Jk to account for those who didn't have a banzuke-gai basho in between, such as Hokutoryu who was 43.

That puts Daigonishiki at no.2, 3rd is Kitasatsuma at 31, then 4 at age 30. 32 at age 25 and older, with only 2 that happened before 2000: Tochiogi 1993 at age 27 and Kasachikara 1996 at 26

Edited by Akinomaki
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I looked for the answer with the Search function, but to no avail:

Dairyu Tadahiro (top rank J4) appears to be the current kabu holder with the lowest top rank.  Are there any members in the modern era who have a lower top rank?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

AbemaTimes pointed out a record by another 41 year old rikishi: 100 basho in jonokuchi by Sawaisamu (ex-Momochizakura)

If you're less than 36 years old, he was in Sumo before you were born.  If you're less than 18 years old, he's spent more time below Jonidan than you have been alive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 19/11/2018 at 19:58, Yamanashi said:

If you're less than 36 years old, he was in Sumo before you were born.  If you're less than 18 years old, he's spent more time below Jonidan than you have been alive.

He started at 5? ;-)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Benihana said:

He started at 5? ;-)

Seriously, Jonokuchi + Mae-zumo + Banzuke-gai = 111 basho = 18.5 years!  I don't know what to think -- but it's what he thinks that counts, isn't it?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 19/11/2018 at 01:10, Yamanashi said:

I looked for the answer with the Search function, but to no avail:

Dairyu Tadahiro (top rank J4) appears to be the current kabu holder with the lowest top rank.  Are there any members in the modern era who have a lower top rank?

 

Found a J5 after a quick look through the database: http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=4168

Edit: and a Ms43, incredibly, who held the Kagamiyama kabu from 1911 to 1951: http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Kabu.aspx?kabu=30

Edited by Atenzan
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Benihana said:

He started at 5? ;-)

look at the sumo with kids thread - Japanese kids may have bouts with rikishi at a really young age

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When was the last time that the Makuuchi division champion was the youngest of the 6 division champions?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This year we have had yusho wins by Yokozuna, Sekiwake, Komusubi and Maegashira, but no Ozeki. The last and previously only time that happened in the 6-basho per year era was in 2000

Given that there are 5 named rank types in Makuuchi and 6 basho per year, I wondered how often one and only one rank-type got left out. In addition to the above we have 1974 with all bar maegashira; 1992 with all bar Yokozuna (for obvious reasons, though the Yokozuna did at least start) and 1972, and 1975 with all bar Komusubi.

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now