Natsu 2015 Basho Talk (spoiler alert!)

[Tsubame 355]

Hey, Miyabiyama had 9 wins as an Ozeki on two occasions. As lackluster as MIyabiyama was, Goeido with his 8, 8, 5 and 8 wins is demonstrable more so.

You (and Asashosakari) were right. But in Goeido I see at least the will to win. Miyabiyama was more like: "Hey, I'm finaly ozeki, now kiss my ***." With his ozekihood he totally changed his appearance on the dohyo.

But I don't want to defend Goeido, if he do not change something, he still will be a weak ozeki for sure.

And with his 3rd lost, it wil be hard for Kyukotenho to win his second yusho. :-/

[I am the Yokozuna 173]

I do not understand the underestimating of Goeido going on here. He is trying his best in most of the bouts. He is of limited ability but concentrated when it mattered. On the other hand, I do not understand the overestimating of any foreign rikishi going here. I admit to fall for it most of the times but if Goeido is being criticized rightfully for falling to reach 10+ wins as an ozeki, why Ichinojo's or Oosunarashi's cruising around, hanging around for the salary( or as I would like to call it an abysmal performance) are never labelled as a disgrace or disappointment. (Everyone is injured. Not everyone decides to put on 20+ kg in less than year in mostly fat - slacking around in trainings, for me).

As a positive, for me, in this basho have been the Amuru's, Ikioi's and (despite the losses) Tochinoshin's performances. Amuru and Tochinoshin prove, for me, that if you have a serious injury, it should be healed properly. Endo, unfortunately, for me is finished as a prospect and potentially, if not operated on, in a year or less - as a sekitori.

There was that variety show before the tournament I watched on the TV, where Hakuho said that recently the rikishi training the most was Yoshikaze. I was really taken aback. If Yoshikaze, and I wish him all the best, is the hardest working and cannot get out of maegashira, just imagine how hard are others working (And there is a big IF - if we take Hakuho's words are taken as a gospel.)

Edited May 17, 2015 by I am the Yokozuna

[Jakusotsu 5,755]

I do not understand the underestimating of Goeido going on here.

I think the complaints are not against the perfectly fine rikishi Goeido but about making him act as Ozeki for no good reason. These shoes were much to big for him.

[Asashosakari 18,670]

I admit to fall for it most of the times but if Goeido is being criticized rightfully for falling to reach 10+ wins as an ozeki, why Ichinojo's or Oosunarashi's cruising around, hanging around for the salary( or as I would like to call it an abysmal performance) are never labelled as a disgrace or disappointment.

What a strange claim about two rikishi with a whopping 5 and 10 basho of makuuchi experience... Edited May 17, 2015 by Asashosakari

[Shikona 139]

Yoshikaze has looked very good. Less frenetic, but more powerful pushing. Hope he will hang on for several years.

[Asashosakari 18,670]

Yoshikaze has looked very good. Less frenetic, but more powerful pushing. Hope he will hang on for several years.

I suspect his left leg still isn't 100% from the muscle tear he suffered half a year ago; that apparent practice furor may have been to facilitate a change of style.

[Asashosakari 18,670]

âNot that it comes as a surprise, but there has never been an ozeki (in the 15-bout era) who failed to get 9 wins in any tournament at the rank. Goeido could be making history over the next few basho.

Had to parse my sentence a few more times...negating "any" and "every" is always ambiguous, I suppose. I was going for:

(failed to get 9 wins) (in every tournament), not

(failed to get) (9 wins in every tournament)

"Any" has the same problem, IMHO, just in reverse.

(failed to get 9 wins) (in any tournament) = failed at least once

(failed to get) (9 wins in any tournament) = failed every time

Edit: Yes, "at least once" works. ;-) Or commas, perhaps. Anyway, I figured my original statement would be clear from context, but I guess not. Apologies to dingo for the misdirection.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 18,670]

So as another example please look at the Takayasu - Tokushoryu fight from day 7. This was a 'clearer' win for Takayasu, but if we apply some principles you explained, I could argue that Takayasu was also 'dead' in that executing the throw. Sure he had little air-time but that's simply because he is not capable of it to the extent Harumafuji is. In fact the time difference between the two rikishi touching down outside seems less than the Haruma - Sada fight.

IMHO, a little bunny hop like that isn't the same thing. Takayasu easily landed on his feet again (albeit with his knees following down a split second later) - Harumafuji and Sadanoumi had no chance for any controlled feet-first landing.

Personally, I find it helpful to think of shinitai as another limit to what decides a bout - the two basic rules are of course "don't touch the ground inside the tawara with anything but the soles of your feet" and "don't touch the ground outside the tawara with any part whatsoever". Shinitai is what governs when the ground isn't involved at all, i.e. you're in the air. That means the tawara is the only meaningful restriction, and that leads to:

in the air and inside the tawara = okay

in the air and outside the tawara (or clearly going that way) = not okay

I think a tsuridashi is the best demonstration - simply getting picked up and lifted isn't a problem, because you still maintain a chance of getting your feet back on the ground inside the tawara, but if your opponent has carried you all the way over it, you're "dead" and it no longer matters if he steps out before he puts you down.

(I guess it's technically possible to be shinitai inside the dohyo as well, if your center of mass is no longer above your feet, either by some type of body slam technique with a full lift-out, e.g. something like a pro-wrestling side slam, or by getting put into an extremely awkward position, such as in the Asashoryu-Kotonowaka bout 11 years ago. Very rare though.)

Edited May 17, 2015 by Asashosakari

[Mongolith 51]

Goeido deserves every bit of criticism he gets and i could care less how hard he tries or his limited ability. If he could not perform at the championship ranks then he should not have been promoted (Scraping a .500 record as oz). If Ichi (been disappointed with him this basho) or Osu get promoted to ozeki then I would at least expect them to flirt with DD in a calendar year. It just devalues the Ozeki rank (which for the longest time was the summit) to have rank holders that cannot meet its standards even on an intermittent basis. That is a different level of responsibility than a rising guy toiling in the junior sanyaku ranks and getting tossed back to the pack if they fail to perform.

[Naganoyama 5,818]

You can't really blame Goeido for being promoted. Rather blame the old duffers at the Kyokai for wishful thinking.

[Andreas21 182]

Goeido is neither lackluster nor of limited ability IMHO. On the contrary, he is grab bag of techniques which amazes once in a while. What was described as being "clowned" here I would call non-functional game plan. I suspect he is thinking too much, and a simpler game plan would help him. He has everything a successful Ozeki needs - he is quite injury free, fast, relatively strong, creative, solid technique - but he would benefit from good coaching, I suppose.

[dingo 1,132]

âNot that it comes as a surprise, but there has never been an ozeki (in the 15-bout era) who failed to get 9 wins in any tournament at the rank. Goeido could be making history over the next few basho.

Had to parse my sentence a few more times...negating "any" and "every" is always ambiguous, I suppose. I was going for:

(failed to get 9 wins) (in every tournament), not

(failed to get) (9 wins in every tournament)

"Any" has the same problem, IMHO, just in reverse.

(failed to get 9 wins) (in any tournament) = failed at least once

(failed to get) (9 wins in any tournament) = failed every time

Edit: Yes, "at least once" works. ;-) Or commas, perhaps. Anyway, I figured my original statement would be clear from context, but I guess not. Apologies to dingo for the misdirection.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify, I was just completely dumbfounded by that sentence.

[Akinomaki 39,572]

(I guess it's technically possible to be shinitai inside the dohyo as well, if your center of mass is no longer above your feet, either by some type of body slam technique with a full lift-out, e.g. something like a pro-wrestling side slam, or by getting put into an extremely awkward position, such as in the Asashoryu-Kotonowaka bout 11 years ago. Very rare though.)

The kabai-te (protect from a hard fall and also the opponent not getting crushed) and not tsuki-te (touch down first) controversial bouts seem to fall into that inside-the-dohyo-shinitai category.

[Morty 1,480]

Is it just me or does Terunofuji look vulnerable to lateral movement in the same way Kotoshogiku is? He looks a powerhouse going forward but has had a few issues when people pull him sideways and get him off balance. Great win by Tokushoryu today regardless. He is having a very impressive basho at M4 (his highest ever ranking) and is just managing to sneak under the radar. Hope he gets his KK at that rank.

I also enjoyed seeing the big grin on Tamawashi's face as he walked back to the dressing rooms after his bout with Harumafuji. I like to see that it means something to these guys to knock off a Yokozuna. Likewise Tokushoryu looked elated when he beat Terunofuji.

And watching the Endo bout, as soon as they went to the belts Endo lifted his left foot off the ground and attempted to fight the rest of the match on one leg only (which obviously is a strategy without much hope of success...).

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

Tokushoru: I call that an 'NHK bout'...meaning that when he retires and is invited on the broadcast, they will be showing that bout.

Best bout I have seen from him. Absolutely superb sumo from Tokushoryu.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Pandaazuma

[Andreas21 182]

With the pairings of day 10, both Yokozuna will not be paired with the low-rankers in the Yusho race! For days 11-15, both have to face 5 Sanyaku yet. The Ozeki may have to deal with them if necessary. Kisenosato has only 1 spot left, while the weaker Ozeki have two. This is actually a scenario for a lucky punch Yusho for one of the low rankers. Kaisei and Kyokushuho are still in the lead, and Takayasu, Okinoumi, Amuru one win behind, and none of them had to face an opponent far above the own rank, including day 10.

[Shikona 139]

Goeido is neither lackluster nor of limited ability IMHO. On the contrary, he is grab bag of techniques which amazes once in a while. What was described as being "clowned" here I would call non-functional game plan. I suspect he is thinking too much, and a simpler game plan would help him. He has everything a successful Ozeki needs - he is quite injury free, fast, relatively strong, creative, solid technique - but he would benefit from good coaching, I suppose.

Exactly. Like Kisenosato, he gets less results out of his ability than he should. Yes, it's disappointing that he's not a yusho threat, but how often has Kotoshogiku been in contention? Still, these guys have been the cream of the crop, such as it is. Most rikshi hit sanyaku and get tossed right back down. Goeido hung in for an impressive length of time and was rewarded. Nothing cheap or easy about that.

[Jakusotsu 5,755]

With the pairings of day 10, both Yokozuna will not be paired with the low-rankers in the Yusho race! For days 11-15, both have to face 5 Sanyaku yet. The Ozeki may have to deal with them if necessary. Kisenosato has only 1 spot left, while the weaker Ozeki have two. This is actually a scenario for a lucky punch Yusho for one of the low rankers. Kaisei and Kyokushuho are still in the lead, and Takayasu, Okinoumi, Amuru one win behind, and none of them had to face an opponent far above the own rank, including day 10.

I think TPTB are still in "wait and see" mode. If one of those dark horses are still in contention on day 12, they'll probably skip one meaningless Y-O matchup to serve them, but I doubt it'll be necessary.

[bettega 423]

Kaisei KK already in day 9! He was clearly overdemoted

[Asashosakari 18,670]

I think TPTB are still in "wait and see" mode. If one of those dark horses are still in contention on day 12, they'll probably skip one meaningless Y-O matchup to serve them, but I doubt it'll be necessary.

And it's not really surprising that Kaisei and Kyokushuho still have "easy" opponents on Day 10, as well as the others mentioned. Front-running rikishi from the low ranks are usually left alone until they have achieved their kachikoshi. Edited May 18, 2015 by Asashosakari

[Kintamayama 44,274]

He has everything a successful Ozeki needs - he is quite injury free.

Not this time. He hardly trained at all before the basho due to a shoulder injury. At some point his entry was being questioned.

[Kintamayama 44,274]

Regarding Endou, my thinking was he will withdraw as soon as he gets 4 wins, or as soon as it will be mathematically impossible.

Looks like he'll that will happen on day 14 at the earliest..

[luispereira 383]

Keep pushing !! (Oshidashi...)

[ScreechingOwl 343]

One trend that is again clear in Natsu is that over the last few years the number of henka have declined significantly. I rank each fight, and three or four years ago my sheets were full of H's (for a full henka) and h's (for a partial henka). They are much rarer now. This is in part because some of the rikishi who used henka heavily have retired, including Takanomaya and Aran, while other rikishi who used to henka a lot now use it less often, including Takekaze, Yoshikaze and Tochinoshin. Even Aminishiki was employing the henka less before his most recent injury. (For the record, I have no objection to a significantly injured rikishi using a henka.)

Tochinoshin in particular, seems to me a much better wrestler since his injury. He seems even stronger and the quality of his sumo has improved. (I know he used some junk against Aminishiki yesterday, but he said he did so because he felt Aminishiki was going to henka him.) I used to consider Tochinoshin a sort of shade of Aran, but he's clearly much more than that now.

The JSA will never forbid the use of henka, and I doubt it could be gotten rid of even if they did. The more sparing use of it, however, leads to a much more satisfying day (or, in my case, night) of viewing makuuchi bouts than it did previously.

[Highway 46]

Harumafuji is the master at defeating himself...