Natsu 2015 Basho Talk (spoiler alert!)

[torquato 1,075]

No monoii!? Are they kidding!!!??

[krindel 671]

It has been three years since the yusho last fell under 13 wins (and 5 more years before that). Seems like there's an actual chance of this happening this time around, if Kisenosato, Kotoshogiku or Harumafuji can best Hakuho.

[kuroimori 1,634]

Wow!

Double Yokozuna Defeat.

Adding a bit moresuspense for the final 3 days of the basho.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Wow!

Double Yokozuna Defeat.

By members of the same stable, no less.

[krindel 671]

I just noticed that Hakuho has notched up 43 wins against Kotoshogiku. Wow. That must be an all time record? (anyone checked this one?) It's 7+ years of straight ass-whooping.

If your question was if it is a record for someone in Makuuchi to have lost 43 times to someone else, then the answer seems to be "Yes".

Query

Edit: The overall 43-4 seems to also be the biggest win differential (39) ever.

Edited May 21, 2015 by krindel

[kuroimori 1,634]

Wow!Double Yokozuna Defeat.

By members of the same stable, no less.

Oh, didn't recognize that. Well, then we could headline something like this:

"Two Yokozuna swept away by an unexpected flash flooding of Sakaigawa"

;-)

[Andreas21 182]

I'll just add that it's my impression that lower-ranked rikishi, especially those that used to be higher up on the banzuke, are "allowed" to get to (or near) double-digit wins before being matched up with really tough oponents (usually san'yaku).

Also my observation.

I'd even go one step further. Looking at the W/L-Matrix there is not much deviation from the idealistic pattern that the top 16 and the bottom 16 are matched all-against all. This idealistic pattern wouldn't even work as there are 6 Rikishi in between, and there are forbidden same-heya/brothers matches, and there is Kyujo of course.

Just from the optical impression of past bashos, the top-16 block is complete with very rare exceptions. The bottom-16 block is more loose, it is shifted towards the middle 6 Rikishi.

I suspect that the shuffling based solely on results is tiny, I guess not more than 5 pairings in total.

Roughly at days 4-8, I also have the impression that same/similar result Rikishi are often paired. But these are just advanced matches, and in the final pairing matrix the effect is low.

So all this - X got a good start so he gets the tougher opposition and vice versa, Y got lucky or unlucky in his pairings - may be just chasing wafts of mist.

Just look at the recent W/L-matrix. At the top, there is shuffling just for the 3 Kyujos. Tokushoryu obtained top-16 status early on, later Kitataiki and Tamawashi got a share, and NOT Aoiyama by the way. Gagamaru just steps in for the Same heya-forbids. Takayasu-Kotoshogiku is a clear candidate of a predominantly results-based pairing, Kaisei-Goeido another.

Disclaimer - also no actual research done. Would be challenging task in higher statistics, though, to single out the results-effect.

[Hakuyobaku 33]

I just noticed that Hakuho has notched up 43 wins against Kotoshogiku. Wow. That must be an all time record? (anyone checked this one?) It's 7+ years of straight ass-whooping.

If your question was if it is a record for someone in Makuuchi to have lost 43 times to someone else, then the answer seems to be "Yes".

Query

Edit: The overall 43-4 seems to also be the biggest win differential (39) ever.

It was the exact opposite. But thanks, I wasn't sure how to find those. It seems like by the end of his career Hakuho will have top 5 or 6 positions on that list. That is contingent on Aminishiki's longevity and his own success agains him and Harumafuji. WOW.

[ALAKTORN 346]

Hakuhō playing with his food again. Aoiyama winning on the belt?!?

[Morty 1,480]

Excellent basho so far. It's much more fun when anyone of about six guys could win it with three days to go rather than it being Hak 2 out in front and the yusho already virtually clinched before the weekend begins. I deeply respect Hak's abilities but his superiority makes it a bit tedious sometimes. Hopefully this goes to the last day and we have playoffs :-)​ .

Three other observations:

Ikioi's work this basho has been outstanding - lots of nice throws and really good sumo all round.

The difference between Kise winning that match-up and getting thrown was him losing that left hand grip while trying to get on the belt with his right. Doing so set him up perfectly for the throw. Teronofuji looks the real deal to me.

Harumafuji may not be far away from the end of his career. He flexes his left left elbow and grimaces in pain after every bout, has recently made public comments about his body being broken down and how he struggles to keep going, and has lost to Tamawashi, Gagamaru and Sadanoumi this basho alone. I think years of being the small man in every match-up is catching up with him. I hope I'm wrong but I think he may be starting to see the writing on the wall.

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

Was in the stadium again today. Been a while since I saw two Yokozuna lose!

Some really great bouts today.

[Shikona 139]

Career wins vs Hakuho (fusen not counted):

Harumafuji 18

Asashoryu 15

Kisenosato 11

Kotooshu 10

Kotomitsuki 9

Chiyotaikai 6

Wakanosato 6

Goeido 6

[CT3* 331]

I said yesterday that I had a "funny feeling about the Hakuho/Goeido bout" and my hunch was correct.

[krindel 671]

Another tidbit:

Hakuho has never won a Yusho that includes a fusen win. Before this basho he has had four fusen wins in Makuuchi, and the results were:

- a playoff loss against Asashoryu

- a Jun-yusho behind Tochiazuma (yes, in THAT tournament)

- a 9-6 from Komusubi

- an 8-7 from M3

In fact, as I think it was mentioned long ago in a thread, a Yusho including a fusen win is far from common, and from what I found only 23 Yusho winners have had one, the last one being Asashoryu in Nagoya 2007. Of course its not as rare as a Yusho containing a fusen LOSS, which has only happened twice...

[Chiyozakura 130]

Wow!

Double Yokozuna Defeat.

By members of the same stable, no less.

Lesson learned for Sakaigawa Oyakata: When you want your boys to defeat Yokozuna, have two Angry Birds sit next to you. It was hard watching the bouts as I could get my eyes of their shirts...

[Gernobono 455]

The difference between Kise winning that match-up and getting thrown was him losing that left hand grip while trying to get on the belt with his right.

absolutely correct.....the best part was, that he just got the right hand firmly on the mawashi after trying for some time and than lost the left hand and moving right he was moving in the right direction for the throw......made me wonder if his arms are too short to reach both sides of the mawashi of terunofuji

Edited May 21, 2015 by Gernobono

[Gurowake 3,915]

Although Gurowake has already answered this in much better way than I ever could, I'll just add that it's my impression that lower-ranked rikishi, especially those that used to be higher up on the banzuke, are "allowed" to get to (or near) double-digit wins before being matched up with really tough oponents (usually san'yaku).

Yeah, Ichinojo was unusual to get top sanyaku opponents early precisely because he was at his career high rank and was coming in off 6-1, 6-1, 11-4, 13-2. They had no way of really knowing what his limit was, and needed him to face as many high-ranked rikishi as possible to make any potential yusho of his legitimate (his henkas though made it feel lame, but whatever). Kaisei has been up and down the banzuke but hasn't made sanyaku; they can feel fairly comfortable that he's going to lose when faced against the higher ranked guys.

[luispereira 383]

Early Summer Blows in the Ring.... keep pushing!:D

[Kotoshoumi 31]

My chaotic thoughts on day 12: Just when I thought I couldn't be more disappointed in Goeido he pulls it off against Hak. Followed by loud yelling in my living room (in a positive context). Very interesting basho so far. Amazed at the fact that, despite almost everyone agreeing Endou shouldn't be there, he's managing to secure his place in makuuchi after all. Bit sad seeing Toyo go makekoshi, I love him in everyone of his bouts. Somehow I find myself routing for Kaisei, although I never really liked him, just cause it would be amazing if he could secure the yusho. His bout was also followed by yelling, yet in a negative context.

[Kaiomitsuki 408]

Been a while since I saw two Yokozuna lose!

for memories

Aki 2014 Day 13 Kakuryu lost against Ichinojo and Hakuho lost against Goeido - Harumafuji was absent

Nagoya 2009 Day 11 Asashoryu lost against Kaio and Hakuho lost against Kotomitsuki - nice day for my all-time favourites rikishis Kaio-(Koto)Mitsuki !

and many time before of course

but three Yokozunas ?

last time Aki 1999 Day 2 Wakanohana lost against Kotonishiki, Takanohana lost against Musoyama and Musashimaru lost against Tochiazuma - Akebono wins against Kyokushuzan.... So It's not the grand slam lol ;)

Last complete sweep

Haru 1984 Day 5

Kitanoumi lost against Hoshi, Chiyonofuji lost against Daijuyama and Takanosato lost against Onokuni !

In the modern era, with four Yokozunas in the Banzuke, never the four Yokozunas have lost the same day.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Kaiomitsuki

[Kotogouryuu 126]

Scheduling is hard.

Especially because it must be set up before the bouts of the previous day. Good to have Sumo traditions live on, but this tradition is simply ridiculous. It is a miracle that the Torikumi so often makes sense.

I actually kind of like that. There is a human element involved. I think that is quite important in sumo.

[Mongolith 51]

Glad to see the yusho race extended. Ichi looked great going forward and neutralizing any shenanigans by tying up his opps arms. Would like to see both mongoliths occupy the S slots since Fuji can't reach ozeki this basho. Better this way having fuji prove himself through 3 bashos.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Mongolith

[luispereira 383]

I want to see Kise win this one, anybody else feels the same?

[ScreechingOwl 343]

I like Kisenosato, but would NOT like him to win this basho. Yet again, when he had a chance to keep the lead in the yusho race, or come close to the lead, he blew it - two separate times. I'd rather see Kisenosato win a basho where he holds a lead under fire. I have great doubts that will happen.

[luispereira 383]

I like Kisenosato, but would NOT like him to win this basho. Yet again, when he had a chance to keep the lead in the yusho race, or come close to the lead, he blew it - two separate times. I'd rather see Kisenosato win a basho where he holds a lead under fire. I have great doubts that will happen.

I agree with the head but disagree with the heart ehe.. I would like to see him more motivated, I think he has it in him, just needs to give it a little more push..