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Kintamayama

First Indonesian rikishi

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New Jonokuchi 25 Kotoanbai is now listed as Indonesia . First Indonesian ever. He has Japanese citizenship but was raised in Indonesia and has adopted that shusshin.

Gut feeling- 2 bashos max.

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I would imagine the "anbai" in his shikona is a reference to Indonesia? So is he from Japan or is he more like a Japanese-Indonesian?

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So does he take up the foreigner slot in Sadogatake Beya?

AFAIK, definitely.

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So does he take up the foreigner slot in Sadogatake Beya?

AFAIK, definitely.

What determines whether he counts as a foreigner then? It seems like having citizenship should make him Japanese. Is it because he has chosen to represent a foreign country?

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So does he take up the foreigner slot in Sadogatake Beya?

AFAIK, definitely.

What determines whether he counts as a foreigner then? It seems like having citizenship should make him Japanese. Is it because he has chosen to represent a foreign country?

It goes by the shusshin (hometown) on the banzuke. Kyokutenhou, for instance, although having acquired Japanese citizenship, is still written as Mongolian and thus counts as a Mongolian/foreigner.

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It goes by the shusshin (hometown) on the banzuke. Kyokutenhou, for instance, although having acquired Japanese citizenship, is still written as Mongolian and thus counts as a Mongolian/foreigner.

In terms of Naganoyama's original query Kyokutenho doesn't; Kyokushuho holds that "official" foreigner spot for the ex-Oshima-beya.

IMHO, if that kid really has a Japanese passport there's no way he's getting counted towards the foreigner quota. He may be foreign for shusshin/representation purposes, but that's a whole different matter.

Edited by Asashosakari

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It goes by the shusshin (hometown) on the banzuke. Kyokutenhou, for instance, although having acquired Japanese citizenship, is still written as Mongolian and thus counts as a Mongolian/foreigner.

In terms of Naganoyama's original query Kyokutenho doesn't; Kyokushuho holds that "official" foreigner spot for the ex-Oshima-beya.

IMHO, if that kid really has a Japanese passport there's no way he's getting counted towards the foreigner quota. He may be foreign for shusshin/representation purposes, but that's a whole different matter.

I'm pretty sure there is a rule that even if you switched to Japanese citizenship, you will forever count as a foreigner. This was put in place after mass citizenship acquiring by Mongolian rikishi in a very short time to "clear" the way for new foreign recruits. It's possible that Kyokushuuhou was allowed to be the designated foreigner because he came in before this rule was put in place, but I'm not sure.

As for the Indonesian, there is no way he will not be the sole heya foreigner as long as his shusshin will be Indonesia because the Kyokai historically counts foreigners by their shusshin and it will be breaking their own rules.. That being said, he probably can always switch back to Japanese shusshin because he had the Japanese citizenship beforehand, in order to make way for another foreigner.

It doesn't really matter . He won't last the year. He won't make it to Aki. I'm willing to bet on these last two declarations with anyone.

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I'm pretty sure there is a rule that even if you switched to Japanese citizenship, you will forever count as a foreigner. This was put in place after mass citizenship acquiring by Mongolian rikishi in a very short time to "clear" the way for new foreign recruits. It's possible that Kyokushuuhou was allowed to be the designated foreigner because he came in before this rule was put in place, but I'm not sure.

Right, Kyokutenho's naturalization and Kyokushuho's entry to sumo were both before this rule was established. And that indicates that this isn't actually correct, or at least it's only part of the truth:

the Kyokai historically counts foreigners by their shusshin

As I said, how the Kyokai counts "foreigners" for public purposes doesn't have to be the same way they count foreigners for internal regulations. Until recently, even naturalized rikishi were shusshin-foreigners without actually being considered foreigners anymore. There's nothing that says the two aspects always have to be treated the same.

Anyway, this kid is not only a Japanese citizen, he was even recruited as Japanese, his first shusshin was Shizuoka. Since the rule now is "naturalization can't get a foreign rikishi to un-occupy his foreigner slot", the same should also hold true in reverse - if you're coming in as Japanese, it should be impossible to be considered something other than Japanese for slot-counting purposes, even if you style yourself with a foreign shusshin later. (In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that's why he came in as Japanese in the first place...)

Edited by Asashosakari

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Incidentally, we had a similar case before. Azumao was active from 1994 to 2005 and switched from a Japanese shusshin to Brazil in 1999. Takaazuma came in as a "real" foreigner in 2004 while Azumao was still there.

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I'm pretty sure there is a rule that even if you switched to Japanese citizenship, you will forever count as a foreigner. This was put in place after mass citizenship acquiring by Mongolian rikishi in a very short time to "clear" the way for new foreign recruits. It's possible that Kyokushuuhou was allowed to be the designated foreigner because he came in before this rule was put in place, but I'm not sure.

Right, Kyokutenho's naturalization and Kyokushuho's entry to sumo were both before this rule was established. And that indicates that this isn't actually correct, or at least it's only part of the truth:

the Kyokai historically counts foreigners by their shusshin

As I said, how the Kyokai counts "foreigners" for public purposes doesn't have to be the same way they count foreigners for internal regulations. Until recently, even naturalized rikishi were shusshin-foreigners without actually being considered foreigners anymore. There's nothing that says the two aspects always have to be treated the same.

Anyway, this kid is not only a Japanese citizen, he was even recruited as Japanese, his first shusshin was Shizuoka. Since the rule now is "naturalization can't get a foreign rikishi to un-occupy his foreigner slot", the same should also hold true in reverse - if you're coming in as Japanese, it should be impossible to be considered something other than Japanese for slot-counting purposes, even if you style yourself with a foreign shusshin later. (In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that's why he came in as Japanese in the first place...)

That and not having to sit out two months before competing in mae-zumo.

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That and not having to sit out two months before competing in mae-zumo.

However, we've already seen that that rule also doesn't apply to foreigners who hold permanent residence (Cho). So I doubt that the Japanese shusshin on entry was necessary to avoid the sit-out period - he's a Japanese citizen either way.

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If he is half Japanese and half Indonesian he has both nationalities till becoming an adult in Japan at 20, now he is 15. In that case he can't become a real foreign rikishi till then. Even if he is born in Indonesia, as long as he is Japanese he also has an officially registered shusshin in Japan - and for sumo he can switch as he pleases.

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And of course there are Japanese rikishi whose "sumo shusshin" doesn't match their legal registration either, though it's harder to find out in those cases. One short-lived case that comes to mind is Chiyoo, who attended high school on Okinawa and used that as his sumo shusshin for two basho before changing to his actual hometown in Kagoshima. His legal registration was almost certainly in Kagoshima all along since he was a minor and thus listed on his parent's koseki.

Edit: Actually I wonder - since marriage establishes a new koseki entry for the married couple, independent of their parents' (if I understand the whole thing correctly), what place do married rikishi typically choose as their honseki, registered location? The community they live in in the Tokyo metroplex or do they actually go back to register in their own or their wife's original hometown?

Edited by Asashosakari

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If he is half Japanese and half Indonesian he has both nationalities till becoming an adult in Japan at 20, now he is 15. In that case he can't become a real foreign rikishi till then. Even if he is born in Indonesia, as long as he is Japanese he also has an officially registered shusshin in Japan - and for sumo he can switch as he pleases.

It doesn't say anywhere that he is half Indonesian-half Japanese. It just says he lived in Indonesia for many years.

I am not yet a wooden convinced. Only if Sadogatake gets a new foreigner while this kid is active and has Indonesia as his shusshin will I be convinced. The Azumaou precedence was before the last decision to count foreigners as such regardless of their Japanese citizenship acquisition. I know this is not the same case but I have a gut feeling that it is bundled up in the current foggy rules somehow.

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New Jonokuchi 25 Kotoanbai is now listed as Indonesia . First Indonesian ever. He has Japanese citizenship but was raised in Indonesia and has adopted that shusshin.

Gut feeling- 2 bashos max.

Good feeling - already intai before the basho, as is same heya much hyped Kototakigawa, the entertainer.

http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/1473307.html

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New Jonokuchi 25 Kotoanbai is now listed as Indonesia . First Indonesian ever. He has Japanese citizenship but was raised in Indonesia and has adopted that shusshin.

Gut feeling- 2 bashos max.

Good feeling - already intai before the basho, as is same heya much hyped Kototakigawa, the entertainer.

http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/1473307.html

Kototakigawa has retired due to an injury- a dislocated shoulder that isn't healing as expected. He was in sumo for a year. The "Indonesian" never set foot on the "real" dohyo.

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15 and going to a foreign country on your own is probably a little too much of a culture shock, but Kintamayama you certainly exercised your sumo knowledge to get the prediction right.

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