[Open Alpha] Rikishi Game

[PhorCillic 51]

Day 2 Torikumi announced.

http://rikishi.cba.pl/en/home/

Yoemon (Hajuhi) vs Jejima (Jejima). Propably "Match of the Basho".

Minor fact: I fixed some of the kimarite's chances (from 0 to based on the rarity). Still about 40 to fix.

[PhorCillic 51]

Just did the 4th Day.

[Jd] Ganzohnesake vs Koebate => Wow. I did it O.O
[Mz] Ganzohnefugu vs Golynosato => for me the best match at the moment. I should think about some awards also for lower divisions.

Also, I have got a weird idea for competition
Next break I thought about making a very little profitable (match value the same as Mz, despite a division of wrestlers - just to avoid "yen rushing") competition between... two countries, from which most oyakatas are (Um... it should be propably more like Pol vs Rest of the World...) :P

Rules of this "event"? Hmmm...

5 days. Each day = 6 matches: 1xSd (counted TWICE), 2xJd, 3xJk

Rikishi should fight only ONCE those five days. He may fight again only, when all other rikishi from "his oyakata's nation" took part in competition.

ONE rikishi per STABLE. Daily.

Winner side will get additional Yen with standard accomodation(+awards) paid at the 1st day Torikumi announcing in next Basho.

What do you think? xD

[Ganzohnesushi 526]

[Jd] Ganzohnesake vs Koebate => Wow. I did it O.O

I'm totally disappointed to have lost this one. Still need to work on how to use my EP's. Thought 1 EP would be sufficient here.

[Mz] Ganzohnefugu vs Golynosato => for me the best match at the moment. I should think about some awards also for lower divisions.

Must have been very close and again I'm very disappointed. Even 3 EP's were not enough :-( Should have set all 4 EP's to win this. Bad luck and 3 EP's wasted for nothing.

Funny enough I did not risk anything on my third Rikishi Ganzohnetofu. Thought he would lose anyway only to see his surprise win. How could that happen?

Also, I have got a weird idea for competition

Next break I thought about making a very little profitable (match value the same as Mz, despite a division of wrestlers - just to avoid "yen rushing") competition between... two countries, from which most oyakatas are (Um... it should be propably more like Pol vs Rest of the World...) :P

Rules of this "event"? Hmmm...

5 days. Each day = 6 matches: 1xSd (counted TWICE), 2xJd, 3xJk

Rikishi should fight only ONCE those five days. He may fight again only, when all other rikishi from "his oyakata's nation" took part in competition.

ONE rikishi per STABLE. Daily.

Winner side will get additional Yen with standard accomodation(+awards) paid at the 1st day Torikumi announcing in next Basho.

What do you think? xD

From my point of view this is not a good idea as I see successful stables like Hajuhi getting rewarded even more. No.

Ganzohnesushi

[PhorCillic 51]

From my point of view this is not a good idea as I see successful stables like Hajuhi getting rewarded even more. No.

With those rules:

- All matches with Mz reward (2Y for Win, 1Y for Lose)

- Rikishi may fight only ONCE in the competition. He may fight again only, when all other rikishi from "his oyakata's nation" took part in competition.

- Max ONE rikishi per STABLE. Daily.

a Stable may got max 10Y.

And "winner side" = "all oyakatas from that country".

But even without reward it may be interesting. Discuss!

Additional Suggestion: Spend EP, because next basho its limit will be reduced :P

[mischashimaru 3]

Just did the 4th Day.

[Jd] Ganzohnesake vs Koebate => Wow. I did it O.O

[Mz] Ganzohnefugu vs Golynosato => for me the best match at the moment. I should think about some awards also for lower divisions.

Also, I have got a weird idea for competition

Next break I thought about making a very little profitable (match value the same as Mz, despite a division of wrestlers - just to avoid "yen rushing") competition between... two countries, from which most oyakatas are (Um... it should be propably more like Pol vs Rest of the World...) :P

Rules of this "event"? Hmmm...

5 days. Each day = 6 matches: 1xSd (counted TWICE), 2xJd, 3xJk

Rikishi should fight only ONCE those five days. He may fight again only, when all other rikishi from "his oyakata's nation" took part in competition.

ONE rikishi per STABLE. Daily.

Winner side will get additional Yen with standard accomodation(+awards) paid at the 1st day Torikumi announcing in next Basho.

What do you think? xD

For me it´s enough to have a Basho every month (all 3 weeks) - I think it´s too much "activity".......

[Jejima 1,414]

I'd be happy to have 6 bashos a year - in the non-Ozumo months, e.g. Feb, Apr, Jun etc

[PhorCillic 51]

One every 3 weeks will be changed to one per 4 weeks as soon as we achieve Juryo (about 190 rikishi?). It would be 13 bashos a year.

6 bashos a year? Number of players will drop. For some, 2 months of "waiting" is enough time to forget. :/

Even now there are two "types" of players. You know, Who is the 1st Group ;P

The second group players want to do anything, everyday.

That's Why I think about 21-28 days as the best option. 7-15 days of basho, 13 days of other (nonprofitable) activities.

_______

And my ideas are getting wilder. And wilder... o.o

I thought about "taking care" of something dropped about... 15 years ago. About seeing the examples, modifying them a bit (ummm... for example planning the matches in place of real playing the match in case of basho) to make it multiplayer, then merge with the rest of the RikishiGame.

It may be difficult. It WILL be more alpha than alpha ( xD ). And it won't be made only by myself... (wait, I will be coding this. But basing on the suggestions... Time to learn some more net languages other than PHP... Required if I want to make a bout system and test it live.)

[Golynohana 321]

My new guy Golynoota is not on schedule 2nd day in a row. I now there is currently uneven number of rikishi and one needs to sit out, but you could at least rotate them.

But the best way IMO would be to create a new rikishi in demo beya to always have an even number of rikishi. I thought this is the reason why this beya actually exists...

[PhorCillic 51]

My new guy Golynoota is not on schedule 2nd day in a row. I now there is currently uneven number of rikishi and one needs to sit out, but you could at least rotate them.

...and he got his match after some new players are joined. My fail, I must rethink matchmaking process in Mz. :P

But the best way IMO would be to create a new rikishi in Tesuto-beya to always have an even number of rikishi. I thought this is the reason why this beya actually exists...

Fixed. Demo-beya (owner: Demo Account) at start was (and still is) a stable, where anyone may login and play, without any restrictions. Their login & pass are public (login: demo / pass: rikishi ). Umm... propably that's why they have enormous number of rikishi. :P

Last basho I started a stable called Tesuto-beya, to check something ("How far a Stable can go if there will be only one rikishi?"). And after thinking, I'll use this stable for that purpose ("Keeping the even number of rikishi")

Thanks for the info. Any of them actually helps :)

Also - fixed a little a bug with "moving the shikona renaming". Now, rikishi will be renamed in next basho ONLY, if he was renamed after announcing of D7 Torikumi.

And after D7 - well, our turn, Ganzohnesushi, Golynohana. We'll test that Improved Banzuke script (hope it won't screw so easily). :P

Edited June 6, 2015 by PhorCillic

[Ganzohnesushi 526]

Don't count on me the next three weeks. I'll be on vacation from next weekend onwards and will be back only by end of June. Access to the internet will be limited.

Ganzohnesushi

[Golynohana 321]

Hmm if demo beya is accessible to anyone then every player can have influence on other matches, like setting max effort to opponent of your rival. For example your rikishi A is fighting for yusho with rikishi B who faces a demo beya rikishi on last day. You can then log in as demo and spend whole budget to train that demo rikishi and set max effort to make your rival lose his bout.

That should not be permitted in my opinion.

[PhorCillic 51]

I didn't thought about that... O.o

But still I want to have an option for people to see the game...

First thinking

- Demo will have decreased EP limit to 1 point

- each demo match will be counted as Mz Match in terms for rewards for them.

It will be made during the break. Not tomorrow because of the my unavailability tomorrow (Poland Got talent jury phase)

[Ganzohnesushi 526]

I'm a bit surprised that Torikumi on Day 7 saw some 6-0 Rikishi fighting aites with rather bad W/L records, e.g. Momotami (6-0) vs. Teshima (1-5) or Koemagae (6-0) vs. Puraku (1-5). This should be avoided under all circumstances. I guess on the last day all combatants for the Yusho should meet stronger guys, ideally those with same or at least similar record.The "Torikumi maker" still has to learn here....

Ganzohnesushi

[Gurowake 4,107]

A couple of translation errors I found in signing up: the "create a stable" button (or at least, that's what I think it is, it was my click of last resort to try to start my stable, and it ended up doing that) and the confirm/accept button for changing your rikishi's shikona are both left untranslated.

[Gurowake 4,107]

If you're serious about making this into a full-fledged simulator, you need to do a lot of study into how exactly the banzuke and torikumi are decided on, and try somehow to figure out how to implement something that at least resembles them and that works on the scale you're working at. I still have no clue how exactly one would make an efficient algorithm for deciding on the Makuuchi torikumi that would result in anything resembling how the Kyokai does it. I know most of the factors at work, but the fact that there are multiple different issues that are compromised on when deciding on them makes it rather difficult to explain to a computer; you'll have to somehow work in a weighting factor for different variables unless you want to have something that's only considering the absolute extremes. While you only have lower divisions it's a bit easier, but that's complicated by the fact that there are so few rikishi, and figuring out in a formulaic manner what to do when they have no reasonable opponents of their own rank is quite a task in itself.

Banzuke-making should be a bit easier, but it will take some study of how exactly the Kyokai curve the various rank increases as well as some thought of how to apply them with variable levels of rikishi in the system. Lower divisions generally have large enough movements that there's no need to worry about maintaining a demotion for MK and promotion for KK (excepting, of course, the bottom rungs), but with a low number of rikishi and without the sekitori cap in place, it's not an easy problem to work on algorithmically. I would study the process more and make the next few manually while thinking about what kinds of decisions are made at each step before trying to work on doing it completely automatically. Most of the fixed-in-stone rules have been mentioned, but there are also other considerations to take into account at various times. I'll probably be taking a look more closely at what appears in the next basho to point out things that could be improved.

[Gurowake 4,107]

As for game mechanics, I probably need to see more about what happens during the basho to make the most informed comments; right now I'm not sure what the deal is with effort points. The one thing that I do find a little odd is the classification of rikishi entirely into 3 types, with no overlap. Successful rikishi are rarely one-dimensional nor do I think the categories are particularly important. I would definitely have agility/speed as a category and would cut technique if you wanted to keep it to 3. However, more importantly these categories don't really reflect the reality that many rikishi end up being either oshi or yotsu specialists, with others that are decent at either. I can understand that such a dichotomy doesn't fit particularly well into a R-P-S model where you can clearly say which attribute is favored with respect to another, but the main solution is to consider speed/agility, aka "ability to dictate terms". Classifying each rikishi as somewhere on the yotsu/oshi spectrum while having a speed component determine which is used might be an interesting tack to take; many matches between dissimilar rikishi seem to be about who executes their game plan the best. It would also give you multiple things for rikishi to put effort into (speed at the tachi-ai? Or more strength?).

[PhorCillic 51]

A couple of translation errors I found in signing up: the "create a stable" button (or at least, that's what I think it is, it was my click of last resort to try to start my stable, and it ended up doing that) and the confirm/accept button for changing your rikishi's shikona are both left untranslated.

Thanks for the info. Button in Shikona form translated. I am trying to get, what happened to "Create a stable" button - in code it looks fully translated...

About the banzuke and torikumi - I am doing my best, upgrading the system after each basho. Still, current banzuke is way better than previous scripts. About Torikumi - I am trying to analyze all the last bashos and slowly setting priorities to the script.

About the mechanics: current system is made especially for my promotor (remember, the game became my Engineer Work). I am working (with the essential help in form of Golynohana and Seigatakaitai) at the newer (or maybe rather refreshed from the past and adapted to a new system) stat and bout system.

Edited June 16, 2015 by PhorCillic

[Gurowake 4,107]

More things not translated:

On the home page, under the basho, a link is labeled "PEŁNE WYNIKI" which Google tells me should be "full results".

On the "full results" page, the table title/header is "Dywizja" which I'm going to guess should be "division".

On each division's page, the column headers for "day", "east" and "west" are not translated.

Not newly available but something I was reminded of while looking for something else that I thought I had seen not translated is the page for each rikishi has "brak" under awards, which after asking Google to translate certainly seems like it's intentionally there and just not translated to "none". It might be a bit weird to deal with if the names of the awards are in Japanese when some exist, but need to be localized when there's none.

I registered a test account to verify that the "create your stable" button is not translated. This is a cropped screenshot showing part of the menu in English but the button under the heya clearly not.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Gurowake

[PhorCillic 51]

On the home page, under the basho, a link is labeled "PEŁNE WYNIKI" which Google tells me should be "full results".

Fixed.

On the "full results" page, the table title/header is "Dywizja" which I'm going to guess should be "division".

Fixed.

On each division's page, the column headers for "day", "east" and "west" are not translated

Fixed. I am editing that page by the way (it should look a little better, similar to homepage or something)

Not newly available but something I was reminded of while looking for something else that I thought I had seen not translated is the page for each rikishi has "brak" under awards, which after asking Google to translate certainly seems like it's intentionally there and just not translated to "none". It might be a bit weird to deal with if the names of the awards are in Japanese when some exist, but need to be localized when there's none.

Fixed and translated the placeholder.

I registered a test account to verify that the "create your stable" button is not translated. This is a cropped screenshot showing part of the menu in English but the button under the heya clearly not.

That really shocked me. Looks like a problem with locale. Or... nevermind, fixed. :)

Maybe I am sitting too much on the JavaScript learning (fighting with some scripts).

Edited June 20, 2015 by PhorCillic

[Gurowake 4,107]

I have no clue what your pairing algorithm is, but the Kyokai have a very regimented way of pairing the lower divisions that only needs adjustment at the very bottom and in the later days. It looks as though you took a cue somewhat from how Makuuchi is paired instead of how the lower divisions are and that might be reasonable given the lower number of rikishi there are now, but it would be more realistic if everyone faced someone with their own record for at least the first few rounds, only breaking things up when there are an odd number of rikishi at each record. Of course, you also probably don't want to pair undefeated (or winless) rikishi that are too far apart in rank either, but that only comes up in Ozumo for the last round and often isn't even adjusted for at all, so it would be a matter of judgement on your part.

Reading the rules actually clarified a lot of other questions I was going to pose after seeing the first day's results, but some portions of it are not translated.

[PhorCillic 51]

Current algorithm looks like this:

1. Get first available wrestler (banzuke_position asc), assign as East

2. Get first similar opponent, assign as West.

Repeat until you have less than 2 wrestlers available

Still working on the "priorities in matchmaking". At the moment there are three possible outcome (get the closest available opponent by banzuke_position±Win_Lose_Difference, get the closest available by wins, get random closest). I know in last 2-3 days I need to focus on finishing the yusho races.

Using first one for whole basho resulted in 5-people 7-0 play-off in Jk. :/

The second one may do, but still, only if used for days 5-7.

Hmmm...

[Gurowake 4,107]

The number one priority for the Kyokai in the lower divisions is to get rikishi facing someone else with the same record as them. The 6-0 Jk often gets put up against a 5-1 in the middle of Jonidan, and adjustments are made to things at the bottom of the banzuke as needed to deal with odd numbers at various records. When they're restricted by heya for other 6-0 matches in the middle of things such that the formulaic matchup would be far too disparate in rank, they put those 6-0s against 5-1s much higher ranked just as with Jk 6-0s, but otherwise pretty much every match not at the very bottom is between rikishi of the same record. It'll still be a matter of taste when you want to break up formulaic matches between rikishi with extreme records that are widely separated on the banzuke, but in general matching records would be the best way to simulate what the Kyokai would do.

Although if you want to do something different from what the Kyokai would do, I'm not going to complain. If you already have or are interested in creating an algorithm that can reasonably handle Yusho races but otherwise pairs rikishi based on where they are projected to be on the next banzuke instead of merely their current record, I would approve, with the proviso that it's not particularly realistic even if it's more "fair".

[PhorCillic 51]

Remember - it's still Open Alpha. :)

This basho I am testing the 'record-based" match making.
Last basho we had system based more on the "banzuke suggestions". (banzuke position modified by current result.)

Most likely next basho matches will be selected like this:

Highest Division (current: Sd)

That may be difficult, but I try to make that system with best fighting in last days. (with huge help of Virtual Sumo code)

Rest

D1-D4:Banzuke suggestion-oriented

D5-D7: Record-oriented (to finish Yusho races)

[Gurowake 4,107]

Remember - it's still Open Alpha. :)

That's why I'm even bothering giving you feedback instead of dismissing it out-of-hand, because I'm truly perplexed by the Day 3 pairings. They don't seem to follow from what you just said. Sandanme looks OK even if it's not 100% by record, but Jonidan and Jonokuchi are a complete mess. Obviously you have some sort of algorithm that at least appears to work in the sense that rikishi who are facing opponents of better records are higher ranked than they are, but it certainly doesn't appear to be pairing by record; over half of the 2-0 in Jd and Jk are not facing other 2-0s.

[PhorCillic 51]

I've found why it followed like that. East rikishi was still decided by the old rules ("get first available by rank"). Hope I'll got time to fix that.