The Best and Worst Yokozuna

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

Aloha All,

This is my first posting, and wanted to ask everyone's view on who you believe were the BEST and WORST Yokozuna, more or less from the post-war era. I understand that its not ALL about tournament win numbers, but, at the same time, it is ALL about how many yusho one gets. Of course, just off the back, if you went plainly on numbers, this is how it would look:

BEST> WORST>

Hakuho Futahaguro/Kitao

Taiho Akinoumi

Chiyonofuji Madeayama

Asashoryu Yoshibayama

Kitanoumi Terukuni

Takanohana II Onokuni

Now, I would like to invite discussion on both sides of the coin. One thing to consider is that All of the Yokozuna in the BEST category are conisdered to have "Dominated" there respective era, while others played second and third banana, for example, Harumafuji, Kashiwado, Mienoumi, Wakanohana. Some people claim that Asashoryu was the worst Yokozuna due to his actions and attitude, while others consider Onokuni to have been promoted simply to pad the banzuke, because of his inconsistency. Most of you here have more knowledge than me, so I look forward to all of your views and opinions, please let the discussion begin.

[Masumasumasu 902]

Aloha All,

This is my first posting, and wanted to ask everyone's view on who you believe were the BEST and WORST Yokozuna, more or less from the post-war era. I understand that its not ALL about tournament win numbers, but, at the same time, it is ALL about how many yusho one gets. Of course, just off the back, if you went plainly on numbers, this is how it would look:

BEST>

Hakuho

Taiho

Chiyonofuji

Asashoryu

Kitanoumi

Takanohana II

Yusho numbers are only part of that which makes a great Yokozuna. In my opinion, Hakuho is not the best. For me it's quality over quantity.

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

Masu, who would you say is the best? For me, I have always been a huge fan of Chiyonofuji. The first sumo match I ever saw was in 1991, when he lost to then Takahanada. Even though he retired soon after, Chiyonofuji was a big part in me becoming a sumo fan, just as much as Konishiki, and later Akebono and Musashimaru.

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

May be an unfashionable view, but I don't care who the 'best' or 'worst' are. They are all just different, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. I like to see how the top guys do their unique brand of sumo only - records don't mean all that much to me (although they are obviously great achievements in themselves).

There...I was no help whatsoever, was I!? ;)

Edited April 11, 2015 by Pandaazuma

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

Panda>On the contrary, your contribution was EXCELLENT. That is a very egalitarian way to look at the Yokozuna and Rikishi as a whole. I see alot of things about Orora because of his size, yet I believe he has maxed out in Mid-Makushita. The very entertaining Takamisakari was a rank and filer for most of his career, yet was extremely popular because of his entertainment value. On entertainment value alone, Asashoryu tops my list.

[Swami 245]

I do rate Hakuho much better than Asashoryu because - apart from his recent judging criticism - by and large he has conducted himself more like a yokozuna should. But while I do rate Hakuho as a good yokozuna, he isn't a patch on Futabayama, Taiho or Chiyonofuji - even Kitanoumi, whose career did get tarnished a bit in the way he dragged his career out at the end.

Probably the most underrated yokozuna of all remains Wajima - probably as a result of his messy exit from sumo in 1985/1986. Had it not been for Kitanoumi, Wajima would probably have won 20 - 25 yusho.

Total disasters as yokozuna - Futahaguro and Onokuni. Onokuni somehow seemed more conscientious, but due to too much bulk and nerves, he never fulfilled the potential once viewed in him as he made his way up through sanyaku. Part of the problem with Futahaguro was that he was promoted at a time when the ozeki ranks were full and it allowed Hoshi (Hokutoumi) to move up to ozeki - Hokutoumi's promotion was justified though, as was his subsequent yokozuna promotion. But even taking this into account, Futahaguro didn't train hard enough and seemed content just to get by with 10/11 wins.

Swami

[Asashosakari 19,515]

I don't actually think there was anything wrong with Onokuni's yokozuna career except that his mounting weight and equally mounting injuries short-circuited it after less than two years. His promotion run was perfectly fine (40 wins in three basho is great anytime), and his first 10 basho after promotion included a 13-2 yusho, three 12-3's and three 11-4's - that's yokozuna standard.

I wasn't around then, but it seems to me that Onokuni's yokozuna career looks like one that probably gets worse the further it moves into the past and reliance on records instead of personal observation increases - basically, what I see is a pretty inoffensive 3 and a half year stint where he was perfectly cromulent for the first half and then barely on the dohyo at all in the latter half. If it wasn't for that unfortunate 7-8 in there, I suspect his career would be merely forgotten rather than held up as a negative example.

And then of course there's the long-standing claim that he was the only gachinko top ranker in the mid and late 1980s and that his records need to be viewed with the assumption that they'd be better if he hadn't refused to "play the game".

Edited April 11, 2015 by Asashosakari

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

Swami> Thanks for your time and insight. Thanks to Futahaguro, the JSA/YDC will always demand a yusho to be in contention for the promotion. I agree with Wajima being underated, he was unique in being, I believe, the only Yokozuna to use his given name his whole career. If I understand it, Kitanoumi wanted to call it quits after his yusho in 84, but the JSA asked him to stay on until the new Kokugikan opened.

Asa>Thanks as well for your time and insight. I appreciate your take on Onokuni. As we all know, records can skew someones view. I would wager that most people would say Wakanohana III was a "poor" example of a Yokozuna, yet he won 5 yusho, NONE of which came as a Yokozuna. When you say forgotten, I think of Yokozuna like Kashiwado, Kitanofuji, Mienoumi, Takanosato.......lets HOPE Kakuryu never falls into that category.

Both of you/everyone else>Speaking of Kakuryu, does anyone believe he will more yusho in the future? I suppose if he waits for Hakuho to call it quits he could, but being that they are only years apart in age, I suspect that he would need to do what he did last year to stay relevant. opinions?

[Swami 245]

Swami> Thanks for your time and insight. Thanks to Futahaguro, the JSA/YDC will always demand a yusho to be in contention for the promotion. I agree with Wajima being underated, he was unique in being, I believe, the only Yokozuna to use his given name his whole career. If I understand it, Kitanoumi wanted to call it quits after his yusho in 84, but the JSA asked him to stay on until the new Kokugikan opened.

Asa>Thanks as well for your time and insight. I appreciate your take on Onokuni. As we all know, records can skew someones view. I would wager that most people would say Wakanohana III was a "poor" example of a Yokozuna, yet he won 5 yusho, NONE of which came as a Yokozuna. When you say forgotten, I think of Yokozuna like Kashiwado, Kitanofuji, Mienoumi, Takanosato.......lets HOPE Kakuryu never falls into that category.

Both of you/everyone else>Speaking of Kakuryu, does anyone believe he will more yusho in the future? I suppose if he waits for Hakuho to call it quits he could, but being that they are only years apart in age, I suspect that he would need to do what he did last year to stay relevant. opinions?

Kitanofuji was another underrated yokozuna - to win 10 yusho in the Taiho era was no mean feat, even though he was something of an underachiever before his promotion.

Regarding the whole issue with Onokuni supposedly being the only gachinko top-ranker, it is worth remembering that many of those who stirred up all these stories generally had an axe to grind with the Kyokai - ex-Itai and his stablemaster both were bitter against the Kyokai for no real reason. At the same time, Onokuni's make-koshi as yokozuna does tend to get more attention than Wakanohana III's so from that point of view it was wrong to focus solely on Onokuni's.

Swami

[Sumozumo 240]

Hakuho is the best, never missing a tournament or jungyo. True yokozuna spirit.

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

sumozumo> most people believe he will be remembered as the greatest ever, with good reason.

swami>waka III's make-koshi is something i consider to make him a weak yokozuna, not to mention he had many of his own demons haunting him. who would you consider "weaker" waka III or Onokuni.

[Masumasumasu 902]

Futabayama.

Taiho.

Chiyonofuji.

Takanohana.

Hakuho.

[Andreas21 184]

May be an unfashionable view, but I don't care who the 'best' or 'worst' are. They are all just different, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. I like to see how the top guys do their unique brand of sumo only - records don't mean all that much to me (although they are obviously great achievements in themselves).

This is a perfectly valid point, and partly I agree. The part which I don't agree is that Dai-Yokozunas can draw extra motivation from these comparisons, and that adds extra excitement to the sport. So Hakuho is not only competing with Harumafuji, Kakuryu and so on but also with Taiho, Kitanoumi, and Chiyonofuji.

These long term comparisons can be made in different aspects, number of Yusho, Zenshos Yushos, career bout wins, winning percentage, streaks of different kinds, winning techniques and so on. The good thing is that these categories are often headed by different Rikishi making the business more interesting.

Special in Sumo is also the ceremonial aspect of Yokozunahood, and you can compare the dignity, which also makes up an exciting discussion.

I did not follow Sumo long enough to have a grounded opinion, I just can say that Asashoryu and Hakuho have been/are both great Yokozunas, and I cannot decide between the two although the latter has the numbers on his side, mostly.

[Kasutera 258]

Futahaguro automatically makes worst Yokozuna for allegedly hitting his oyakata's wife. Just putting that out there.

[Kasutera 258]

To sincerely, contribute to this discussion, are we just taking into account pure statistics or also historical significance? I think Akebono deserves a spot on the list if the latter. First Gaijin Yokozuna, first American Yokozuna, and he held the rank during a very fiercely competitive period. My two cents.

[Swami 245]

To sincerely, contribute to this discussion, are we just taking into account pure statistics or also historical significance? I think Akebono deserves a spot on the list if the latter. First Gaijin Yokozuna, first American Yokozuna, and he held the rank during a very fiercely competitive period. My two cents.

Plus he did remarkably well given such a high centre of gravity, and a period when he did become very much injury-plagued. The manner in which Akebono recovered to perform so well in 2000 is worthy of mention.

Swami

[Swami 245]

sumozumo> most people believe he will be remembered as the greatest ever, with good reason.

swami>waka III's make-koshi is something i consider to make him a weak yokozuna, not to mention he had many of his own demons haunting him. who would you consider "weaker" waka III or Onokuni.

Wakanohana III was a superb technician and performed superbly as ozeki but somehow that performance, or level of performance, didn't transfer during his brief time as yokozuna.

Tough call to choose between him and Onokuni - maybe overall Onokuni.

Swami

[chishafuwaku 476]

• Tachiyama (22st)

9 + 2 wins between 1904-1916 (13 years).

If that time there was 6 bashos/year he could win more than 30. He won 5 in a row.

185 cm and 139 kg that time I think it was perfect.

"He once won 43 bouts in a row, lost one to Nishinoumi Kajirō II, then won another 56 in a row. If he had not lost that match (which he later admitted was deliberate, to help out his rival yokozuna who was struggling at the time),he would have set an all time record of 100 consecutive wins"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachiyama_Mineemon

• Futabayama (35th)

12 wins. He also won 5 in a row. He also could win more than 10 consecutively. Not even Hakuho.

But his wins were "only" for a period of 8 years (1936-1943) - less than Tachiyama.

"Futabayama is particularly remembered for achieving the longest run of consecutive victories in sumo bouts, with 69, a record that still stands today. This represents an unbeaten run which stretched over three years. In a sport where matches often last a few seconds, and a brief lapse in concentration can lead to a loss, this is an exceptional achievement."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futabayama_Sadaji

chishafuwaku

Edited April 13, 2015 by chishafuwaku

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

thanks to all who contributed to this thread, i can see that the consenus more or less is similar to most. I agree Akebono sometimes gets lost in the shuffle, as he did hit a slump, but came back to win before he called it quits. Asahifuji also gets lost, in my opinion. With only 4 yusho and 2 years as a yokozuna, its hard to remember that most had given up on him and resigned him to eternal ozekihood, but he would come alive and prove his detractors wrong, much like musahimaru did back in 1998. One must also take into account that Asahifuji managed his promotion with a dominant yokozuna still fighting<chiyonofuji>, a strong yokozuna as well <hokutoumi>, and our unfortunate whipping boy <onokuni> all around him, as well as two yusho winning ozeki hot on his heels, <konishiki> and <kirishima>.

In a sense, ALL who become Yokozuna can be classified as "Great", just as all Yokozuna have faults to each their own. Kitanoumi was notoriously unpopular with the public, and many paid to see sumo with the hope that someone could take him down. Takanohana flat out created his own ichimon in the JSA, ruffling more than a few feathers.

Lastly, for the record, I believe the 72nd Yokozuna will be Ichinojo, while the 73rd will be Terunofuji. Not part of the discussion, but just for the record.

[Benevolance 2,501]

Just to add to what Kasutera already said (points which I agree with) not only was Akebono active during a very competitive time, he didn't get the scheduling breaks that a lot of his opponents got, which makes his accomplishments all the greater.

Personally, I love the speed and aggression that Chiyonofuji and Harumafuji demonstrate(d). A lot of people diss Ama for his half-henka, but I think it's simply damn impressive. Many times, he's already hit, side-stepped, thrown and is checking through the guy's wallet before his opponent is cognizant the match is begun. Unfortunately, I think that's also what will keep him back from the kind of accolades that Hak gets, because too often he crosses that line from fast to reckless, and he beats himself.

[Asashosakari 19,515]

Just to add to what Kasutera already said (points which I agree with) not only was Akebono active during a very competitive time, he didn't get the scheduling breaks that a lot of his opponents got, which makes his accomplishments all the greater.

On the other hand, it's rarely mentioned that Musashimaru started to get a pretty big break on the scheduling around the time he became yokozuna as it coincided with the rise of Dejima and Miyabiyama (in addition to Musoyama who'd been there for a while). ;-) Career-wise Akebono was indeed the odd man out. Edited April 14, 2015 by Asashosakari

[BuBa 77]

Easy one, Asashoryu is the best hands down.

[RockyS 0]

Hidenoyama (9th) might be in contention for the worst Yokozuna if we aren't just looking at the modern era. He seems to have basically bought his Yokozuna license, and post retirement he was a corrupt shimpan whose actions caused a walk out.

[hamcornheinz 839]

Hidenoyama (9th) might be in contention for the worst Yokozuna if we aren't just looking at the modern era. He seems to have basically bought his Yokozuna license, and post retirement he was a corrupt shimpan whose actions caused a walk out.

Yokozuna meant something completely different back then, and had more to do with the right to dance in front of shrines and stuff.

Edited January 24, 2016 by hamcornheinz

[WAKATAKE 2,667]

I personally liked Asashoryu because as a rikishi who was a very powerful, dominant, and fun guy to watch. He had a way with connecting with the crowd, and I loved watching him use all the different techniques he had in his arsenal to win. Consequently it was his conduct on and off the dohyo that led to him being unpopular and ultimately forcing him to retire. If he had been kept in line by Takasago oyakata, then things may have turned out differently. Futahaguro hands down deserves worst Yokozuna title for all the trouble he caused.