Kyushu 2014 - General Talk

[Gurowake 3,919]

Osunaarashi might not feel safe to remain in Makuuchi with his one win, and there's a lot of potential career money riding on him not going back to Juryo until he's ready to retire. If I understand the system correctly, and I think I do due to my analysis of Tochinowaka's mysteriously decreasing account last basho, around 120,000 yen per basho in mochikyukin money would get erased if he gets demoted. Yes, historically he'd probably get put down to M14 if he has only one win, but consider that it's abundantly clear that the Kyokai considers an absence worse than losing. As long as he actually fights, he'll probably stay even if he doesn't win.

[Masumasumasu 902]

Kakuryu employed "Yokozuna sumo" and lost. Hakuho used "brawler" tactics and won. And in doing so, tied Kakuryu for the yusho race. So tell me, whose tactic was more effective?

And my query has nothing to do with being a "Hakuho lover". Sumo is a combat sport and sometimes guys get smacked in the face, get thrusts to the throat or thrown down hard to the clay. It all comes with the territory, no? Criticizing a yokozuna for relying on henkas or pull techniques is somewhat understandable. But criticizing a yokozuna for putting the smackdown on an ozeki? Not so much, imo.

Smackdown is OK. Late shoves are not.

Brawler techniques are desperate. Yokozuna sumo is controlled.

Hakuho ought to work on his dohyo iri. His shiko looks terrible. I'm not surprised; he only cares about winning, after all.

[Gernobono 455]

i do not know who posted the time of the bouts per day here in the forum.....but i guess he/she did not get a result for fujiazuma - daido.......i am not sure anyone can manage do go-stop the clock in such short time.....wow...still impressed how quick that was....

[Andreas21 182]

relying on henkas or pull techniques

I reckon, pull techniques are in a completely different category. A pull down is the appropriate way to punish the opponent for poor balance, poor footwork, for leaning too much forward. This is clean Sumo IMHO. It is even crucial to the Sumo as it is. If it were forbidden, Sumo would be more motionless - closer to the caricature of fat man leaning towards each other.

If Henka were forbidden, and that is not completely unrealistic given the negative status it has, Sumo would lose the very cautious Tachi-ai, and that's all.

[CT3* 331]

relying on henkas or pull techniques

I reckon, pull techniques are in a completely different category. A pull down is the appropriate way to punish the opponent for poor balance, poor footwork, for leaning too much forward. This is clean Sumo IMHO. It is even crucial to the Sumo as it is. If it were forbidden, Sumo would be more motionless - closer to the caricature of fat man leaning towards each other.

If Henka were forbidden, and that is not completely unrealistic given the negative status it has, Sumo would lose the very cautious Tachi-ai, and that's all.

Understood. But my point was referring to how a perceived over-reliance on those techniques by a Yokozuna could invite criticism.

[CT3* 331]

Kakuryu employed "Yokozuna sumo" and lost. Hakuho used "brawler" tactics and won. And in doing so, tied Kakuryu for the yusho race. So tell me, whose tactic was more effective?

Effectiveness might be the gold standard for some people, but everyone.

I guess you didn't care to respond to the rest of the post. At no point did I state that effectiveness was the gold standard.

Hakuho had lost to Goeido in their 3 previous match-ups. I don't recall his sumo being criticized during his losing efforts. But this time he switched tactics, put the smackdown on Goeido and simultaneously ended his losing streak and tied Kakuryu for the yusho hunt. Personally, from a competitive standpoint I didn't see much to criticize. *shrug*

[Doitsuyama 1,173]

I guess Takayasu is pretty certain to get the shukun-sho with the two kin-boshi as he achieved kachi-koshi today. Quite the financially successful basho for him - kin-boshi pay for every future basho, and Takayasu is only 24 years old.

[Tsubame 356]

Any words on Tochinoshins performance? I have to admit, that I did not expect a double-digit KK from him back as mid-maegashira. And to be honest, I didn't even expect a KK.

And what about Kyokutenho?! Will he finish again with the best result for him: 8-7 (for a not too high promotion)?

[CT3* 331]

Today's Kakuryu/Goeido match was odd. Hard to discern whether Kakuryu reacted to what he thought was a matta...or if his strategy was to henka.

[Benevolance 2,478]

Kakuryu was going to henka, but Goeidou was SO FAST Kaku clearly had to try and turn it into a failed matta. Second theory: Hak had told Kaku that the secret to beating Goeidou was street brawling, and as they lined up, Kakuryu realized he'd forgotten his roll of 100Y coins and sawed-off snooker cue in the locker room. Final theory: Kakuryu was going to attempt the never-before-seen SaturdayNightFeverkitomi maneuver, but his tsukebito forgot to press play and without the musical stylings of the BeeGees, one cannot simply channel the Travolta defense.

[Doitsuyama 1,173]

Any words on Tochinoshins performance? I have to admit, that I did not expect a double-digit KK from him back as mid-maegashira. And to be honest, I didn't even expect a KK.

No? Really? He just scorched the earth with a record setting 42-2 and four yusho, including a 15-0 last basho, and you expected MK? Hmm... well, he still has a bit of work to do to earn me a good steak, but I guess Jakusotsu already can look for a good one. :-D

[Masumasumasu 902]

Any words on Tochinoshins performance? I have to admit, that I did not expect a double-digit KK from him back as mid-maegashira. And to be honest, I didn't even expect a KK.

No? Really? He just scorched the earth with a record setting 42-2 and four yusho, including a 15-0 last basho, and you expected MK? Hmm... well, he still has a bit of work to do to earn me a good steak, but I guess Jakusotsu already can look for a good one. :-D

I didn't expect KK either. (Spell check wants to say KKK.)

Tochi was a milquetoast before his injury and I had no reason to expect otherwise.

I'm glad he's making a run for it though. I'm rooting for him (and against his competitors).

[teo_heel 33]

Amuuru don't want to Juryo on Hatsu 2015, so he tries to reach 6-7 wins... That's cool!

And yeah, Tochinoshin is great on this basho... I think, that he can make a little surprise. :D

[Kotogouryuu 126]

Today's Kakuryu/Goeido match was odd. Hard to discern whether Kakuryu reacted to what he thought was a matta...or if his strategy was to henka.

To me it seemed like Kakuryu was surprised to see Goiedo just rushing forward without any idea where he was going, so he just decided to shown him the way out. I may be giving Kak too much credit here, but that was a good example of how a henka is done to an opponent who isn't maintaining his own balance.

[ALAKTORN 346]

Kakuryū and Aoiyama henka? What’s going on?

[Highway 46]

Ah, Kisenosato, close but no cigar again.

[shumitto 418]

I guess you didn't care to respond to the rest of the post. At no point did I state that effectiveness was the gold standard.

By asking about effectiveness without mentioning quality - which was the point underlying my post - you turned it into the standard par excellence against which a sumo bout should be measured.

And my query has nothing to do with being a "Hakuho lover". Sumo is a combat sport and sometimes guys get smacked in the face, get thrusts to the throat or thrown down hard to the clay. It all comes with the territory, no? Criticizing a yokozuna for relying on henkas or pull techniques is somewhat understandable. But criticizing a yokozuna for putting the smackdown on an ozeki? Not so much, imo.

I have no idea which query you are referring to. I found the smackdown a bit too dangerous, and I stick to my opinion. In your own opinion, as you put it yourself, it is not criticizable, but in mine, it is. I've bothered to write an answer for the sake of completeness - and mostly because I enjoy writing about anything- but there is no point in dragging this discussion any further.

[CT3* 331]

Agreed. And I appreciate hearing your viewpoint.

[lackmaker 432]

Every day this basho Kyokushuho and Endo have recorded the same result....until tomorrow when they meet.

[rzombie1988 157]

Very surprised to see Ichinojo lose to Kotoshogiku. They said he had the shingles and I can buy it because he hasn't looked good all basho. He's just got no power behind him at the moment and everyone has caught on to him backing up. Not sure why he's going with this tactic when he could bend down some and get some solid foundation. I'm interested to see who would be next for him after Tochinoshin as he's fought all from Y to M2 minus Kisenosato, who I don't think he will get paired with. Ichinojo really needs to win his last three if he wants a shot at Ozeki in January. If he goes 9-6 here, he'll need 10 in January. Any more than that and I think he can't do it.

Disappointed at Hakuho/Kisenosato. Should have been a good one but Kisen gave that up too easy. If you watch it you can clear see what happened - Kisen was going for a left belt grip, couldn't get it and kept trying for it. Hak caught on and when Kisen stretched to get it again, Hak dug in with his left hand and underhooked Kisen's left shoulder for the easy win.

Aoiyama did a pretty good henka. Never would have seen that one coming. Aoi just needs to win his last three and he'll be at 22 wins - 11 away from Ozeki promotion. He has the size, but he has to keep his balance and not extend too much on his arm thrusts.

Can't really blame Kakuryu's henka either. Goeido gave it to him by being too low and not looking. Just kinda sucked though because I wanted a better match.

Tochinoshin is looking good. His legs are about double the size of his torso. I could see him at M1-M3 if he wins his last three. He also has a shot at a Jun-Yusho, as either Hak or Kak is guaranteed to lose at least one more. Could get Yusho with 3 more wins and Hak/Kak both losing. He also may luck out as the remaining Y's and O's are booked.

Possible Day 14 matches:

Hakuho vs Harumafuji

Kakuryu vs Kotoshogiku?

Kisenosato vs Goeido? or Kisenosato vs Ichinojo

Tochinoshin vs Takayasu

Ichinojo vs an M3

Possible Day 15 matches:

Hak vs Kakuryu

Harumafuji vs Kotoshogiku or Tochinoshin

Kisenosato vs Goeido(If we don't see it on Day 14) or Kisenosato vs Ichinojo

Edited November 20, 2014 by rzombie1988

[teo_heel 33]

Every day this basho Kyokushuho and Endo have recorded the same result....until tomorrow when they meet.

That's interesting... tomorrow they will decide, who's the original and who's the copy. :D

Edited November 20, 2014 by teo_heel

[lackmaker 432]

Every day this basho Kyokushuho and Endo have recorded the same result....until tomorrow when they meet.

That's interesting... tomorrow they will decide, who's the original and who's the copy. :D

Presumably the copy was whoever fought second.

[Morty 1,480]

The Kitataiki / Yoshikaze match was fought on just two good legs - one each. Watching Yosh try to push forward while not trying to put any weight on the left made me wince a little.

And I love watching Hakuho throw people - it is so fluid. The way he drops the shoulder and uses their weight against them at the same time as popping the belt is a joy to watch. He makes it look so natural in contrast to many others who look like they are just trying to use brute strength.

[Sumozumo 240]

The Kitataiki / Yoshikaze match was fought on just two good legs - one each. Watching Yosh try to push forward while not trying to put any weight on the left made me wince a little.

And I love watching Hakuho throw people - it is so fluid. The way he drops the shoulder and uses their weight against them at the same time as popping the belt is a joy to watch. He makes it look so natural in contrast to many others who look like they are just trying to use brute strength.

I really agree with this, Hakuho's throws are very well executed. I don't get when people say he brings brutal sumo to the table. He is one of the more technical sumotori for sure.

[rzombie1988 157]

I don't think Hakuho is brutal at all, minus an extra push or shove. The ones who strike or push your head up from below/grab you by the throat are the nastier ones I think.