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Nagoya 2014 Discussion Thread

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What the hell was that? Harumafuji just collapsed!

The kachi-age rang his bell?

Is Hakuho getting nervous?

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What the hell was that? Harumafuji just collapsed!

The kachi-age rang his bell?

Is Hakuho getting nervous?

It happens so quickly it's hard to tell. My first thought was that Harumafuji moved so fast that there was no time for the forearm, and then kept on pushing. However, Osunaraashi is big but not fat, and thus has good control over his body, and can turn quickly even when pushed back. So he used Haru's momentum to thrust him down.

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day 6 highlights

Jk : Takumi (1-1) - Hamatensei (1-1), uwatenage

Jd- : Inanofuji (1-1) - Kotomiyakura (1-1), nice kubinage
Jd+ : Shingaku (2-0) - Ogifuji (2-0), last basho Ogifuji won by hikiotoshi

Sd~: Kotodairyu (1-1) - Obamaumi (1-1), kozumatori, a very rare technique that is !

Sd+: Aratoshi (2-0) - Daichi (2-0), pulling the brakes

Ms- : Ohara (1-1) - Oniarashi (1-1), that's why the Irish is one of my favourite rikishi ! :-)

Ms~: Takakasuga (1-1) - Towanoyama (1-1), spin him around

Ms+: Ishiura (1-1) - Sasanoyama (1-1), interesting matchup

J- : Satoyama (3-2) - Tochinoshin (5-0), as often, Satoyama puts up some show

J~: Asahisho (2-3) - Fujiazuma (1-4), the great escape... on lucid wings

J+: Takanoiwa (4-1) - Tokushinho (1-4), the downfall

M- : Okinoumi (2-3) - Chiyomaru (5-0), ushiromotare, a Takamisakari specialty to get involved into :-D
M~: Takayasu (5-0) - Toyonoshima (4-1), 1-6 in previous encounters

M+: Chiyootori (2-3) - Jokoryu (2-3), shitatenage

S- : Goeido (4-1) - baby Hakuho (0-5), run baby run
S+: Osunaarashi (3-2) - Harumafuji (4-1), Boody's 2nd kinboshi in a row ?

Edited by Vikanohara

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What the hell was that? Harumafuji just collapsed!

The kachi-age rang his bell?

Is Hakuho getting nervous?

It happens so quickly it's hard to tell. My first thought was that Harumafuji moved so fast that there was no time for the forearm, and then kept on pushing. However, Osunaraashi is big but not fat, and thus has good control over his body, and can turn quickly even when pushed back. So he used Haru's momentum to thrust him down.

I'll need to see it in slow motion to tell exactly what happened. It didn't look to me as if the forearm was a factor; it came in too low and Haru came in too fast for Osu to do anything with it. Maybe partly a slippiotoshi -- but maybe not.

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I'll have to see from other angles but as far as I can tell it looks like Harumafuji rushed too quickly trying to push the egyptian out and Osunaarashi simply side stepped him and he fell down without much effort or even needing a slap down. It seems Osu really rattled the cage with that victory over Kakuryu but as much as I like the guy I still think he won't win versus Hakuho.

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All those 'analysts' who predicted Osuna would be outclassed at a certain rank (insert rank here) are very quiet now. I know it is bad...but I enjoy that.

Well done Boody!

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The fact is that Harumafuji's sumo has been awful this basho so I actually watched the bout thinking Osuna had a real chance. Fair play to him.

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Kagamio. Late shove vs. Tokushoryu.

Not Japanese.

Right, because the Japanese tend to miss their late shove. (see Kotoshogiku today)
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I find it interesting that certain folks endlessly harp about Osunaarashi's legal use of his forearm (the forearm is not "throwing an elbow"), then look for evidence of its use in his back to back Yokozuna victories. In neither bout did he appear to use his forearm in any way. Give the guy credit where credit is due.

For me, the focus is on his poise and confidence on the dohyo. The fact that he's competing while also observing Ramadan is pretty impressive.

Other observations thus far:

Endo wins a regular match and the crowd reacts as if he's just captured the Emperor's Cup. Funny stuff!

Looks like Takayusa has finally got his mojo back.

Also nice to see Myogiryu regain some semblance of his old form.

Kotoshogiku is looking pretty good. Nice to see him without the shoulder bandages.

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Some thoughts:

- I had to laugh when Miyogiryu had Takekaze's head in both of his hands and had a "well, what now?" moment.

- Ikioi just plain steamrolled the steamroller. Not much Goeido could have done about that.

- Kisenosato's ability to absorb is simply phenomenal. He is one of the best at that, if not THE best in the game right now.

- Endo won today, but I just don't know if he has got "it". Maybe he's just in transition to a new form.

- I am LOVING Kotoshogiku this basho. It's awesome that he is back in top form. Should get his 8 easily.

- Astoundingly fast tachi-ai by Harumafuji, but came in too low against top-strong Boody.

- Speaking of Boody, I have liked his awareness against the yokozuna, but I somewhat feel that today's win against Harumafuji was a desperate act.

- Boody part 3: I fully expect Hakuho to give him a taste of his own medicine, and box the young lad's ears a bit at the tachi-ai.

- Hakuho is a master. Possibly THE master.

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According to my data, Osunaarashi is the 16th rikishi to win kinboshi on two consecutive days of a basho in the modern era. The last to do this was Tochinonada in 2003 Kyushu.

Basho Days Winner Yokozuna Defeated
1948 Aki 4, 5 Kamikaze Maedayama, Terukuni
1949 Natsu 5, 6 Kotonishiki Azumafuji, Terukuni
1955 Hatsu 3, 4 Wakasegawa Kagamisato, Tochinishiki
1955 Hatsu 8, 9 Asashio Chiyonoyama, Tochinishiki
1958 Hatsu 2, 3 Iwakaze Yoshibayama, Chiyonoyama
1961 Kyushu 3, 4 Hagurohana Asashio, Wakanohana I
1964 Aki 4, 5 Toyokuni Taiho, Kashiwado
1965 Natsu 5, 6 Kairyuyama Kashiwado, Taiho
1979 Aki 4, 5 Misugiiso Kitanoumi, Mienoumi
1982 Aki 1, 2 Daijuyama Kitanoumi, Chiyonofuji
1984 Aki 6, 7 Ozutsu Chiyonofuji, Takanosato
1990 Haru 7, 8 Akinoshima Hokutoumi, Chiyonofuji
1998 Kyushu 2, 3 Kaio Takanohana, Wakanohana III
1999 Aki 1, 2 Tochiazuma Takanohana, Musashimaru
2003 Kyushu 2, 3 Tochinonada Asashoryu, Musashimaru
2014 Nagoya 5, 6 Osunaarashi Kakuryu, Harumafuji
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Kagamio. Late shove vs. Tokushoryu.Not Japanese.

Right, because the Japanese tend to miss their late shove. (see Kotoshogiku today)

Kotoshogiku didn't shove late.

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The best tactics of Osunaarashi seems to be to make the opponents (yokozuna) do some moves to counter his kachi-age, which they apparently don't train enough, and then throw them off balance. Before the basho he even was scolded by Otake-oyakata in the press conference for revealing his tactics for the basho to (always) go with kachi-age - but that appears to have been a brilliant move.

All unknowingly maybe.

This article: http://www.sanspo.com/etc/news/20140718/amk14071805000001-n1.html complains about violent sumo this basho, esp. "kachi-age like an elbow strike", "extremely close" to a clenched fist strike hansoku etc., nearly all that has been discussed here recently all in one.

BTW, Hakuho several times did a similar kachi-age - maybe Osunaarashi is just imitating a great yokozuna.

Edited by Akinomaki
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BTW, Hakuho several times did a similar kachi-age - maybe Osunaarashi is just imitating a great yokozuna.

Yes. Anybody remenber this one?

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I've watched that bout many times in the past. Hakuho used the forearm and also seemed to have a closed fist. And he didn't even bother trying to help Myogiryu up after he knocked him out. I've also seen Hakuho swing his right forearm up in other matches.

Yet Osuna uses his forearm a few times and folks respond as if its a national crisis and an affront to all that is holy in sumo. LOL!

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I've watched that bout many times in the past. Hakuho used the forearm and also seemed to have a closed fist. And he didn't even bother trying to help Myogiryu up after he knocked him out. I've also seen Hakuho swing his right forearm up in other matches.

Yet Osuna uses his forearm a few times and folks respond as if its a national crisis and an affront to all that is holy in sumo. LOL!

I beg to differ. It has become rare for him not to use it.

I criticized Oosunaarashi on his Facebook page last basho after he knocked the piss out of Endo. After deleting my post, he sent me a link to the above video.

Hakuho needs to realize that he is a role model.

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- Kisenosato's ability to absorb is simply phenomenal. He is one of the best at that, if not THE best in the game right now.

It is really impressive. It must be disheartening for his opponents when they throw all they have at him and he just takes it. Even Hakuho takes notice of this and doesn't try to overpower Kisenosato.

- Endo won today, but I just don't know if he has got "it". Maybe he's just in transition to a new form.

He seems a little bigger, he may be working on something and isn't quite there yet.

- I am LOVING Kotoshogiku this basho. It's awesome that he is back in top form. Should get his 8 easily.

Indeed. I know he isn't held in very high regard by everyone but I've always found him entertaining, and he certainly seems like himself again. With the thinning of the ozeki ranks, he is needed.

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Thinking once more about Osunas double debut kinboshi... Does this have any impact if he might get a special prize this basho? Quite a few rikishi on Yubinhaads list got a Shukun-sho in that tournament. Just wondering if something like this could be an early special prize decider as it were...

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I would definitely think Osuna will get a shukun-sho. I think the only rule of thumb he has left to cross is he must at least get a kachi-koshi. As much as I think his sumo looks more like a fight than sumo, I have to admit both his yokozuna wins looked more like sumo. I think especially Haruma was so worried he'd lose to him that he didn't keep his concentration.

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[Endo] needs to acquire a new horse.

No he doesn't. He needs more protection from his oyakata. With his 24 years he's basically just a young child. With all this trouble around...

Reminds me of German young talented football player Julian Draxler. At the age of 16 or 17 his pro-coach asked him to quit his High-school degree. "He would not have needed futher education to earn money and make his way".

BTW, I like following Osunaarashi and Endo how differently they move on in their carreers... There could be a lot to write about...

Sorry, but this looks like a silly comparison to me. Endo not only did get his high-school degree, he got a university degree before starting his pro career - he is not "basically a young child". Those two examples are worlds apart, please come back with a football player who started his pro career like Endo, then we talk again. Or maybe your answer was in jest, but I fear you really meant it like you wrote it.

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All you need for a shukun-sho is generally to be eligible for a sansho (KK, not be ranked O or Y) and to beat a Yokozuna. In case of multiple people meeting the requirements, if they're pretty equal they'll probably give it to both; see Aki 2011 when the current two Ozeki both went 12-3 with wins over Hakuho, and Hatsu 2008 where Ama and Kisenosato both won a Shukun-sho with one going 9-6 and beating the yusho winner (Hakuho, 14-1), the other going 10-5 and beating the other Yokozuna (Asashoryu, 13-2).

If one has a much better claim they'll give it to that guy. Tochiozan didn't get consideration for it previous basho despite beating a Yokozuna and having 2 more wins than Goeido, won did win it, given that the Yokozuna Tochiozan beat (Kakuryu, 9-6) had plenty of other losses and the Yokozuna Goeido beat (Hakuho, 14-1) was otherwise undefeated and took the yusho. In the 2008 case, Asashoryu was a well-established Yokozuna with plenty of yusho to his credit. His only other loss of the basho was to Hakuho, so it's reasonable to treat the two losses as relatively equal.

The real question to me is whether Tochiozan would have gotten it if Goeido had been ineligible due to makekoshi; I remember reading the meeting notes of the sansho committee and not seeing anything about awarding it to Tochiozan on the condition that Goeido lost. I think it's likely that the sansho committee ignores wins over Yokozuna who perform poorly, especially for Sekiwake.

Looking back to other basho for anything interesting...

Aki 2013: Shohozan eligible for beating 10-5 Harumafuji, Goeido gets it for beating 14-1 Hakuho

Nagoya 2013: Takayasu, Myogiryu and Goeido all eligible for beating 10-5 Harumafuji; 9-6 M1 Takayasu gets it - the others were 8-7 as Sekiwakes. As the shukun-sho is generally for performing above your current rank and merely recognized by beating Yokozuna, it makes sense to give it to the lower ranked guy.

Natsu 2013: 11-4 Myogiryu eligible for beating 11-4 Harumafuji, awarded only Gino-sho

That's all I can see for the time period after Harumafuji was promoted. I might look back a little further, but I don't think it'll be as interesting with just Hakuho up there. Given Nagoya 2013, I think it's pretty safe to say that Oosunaarashi will get the Shukun-sho if he gets 8 wins; even if Goeido or Tochiozan manage to beat 2 or 3 Yokozuna and manage KK and thereby demand one as well, they probably won't withhold one from Boody.

Edited by Gurowake
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All you need for a shukun-sho is generally to be eligible for a sansho (KK, not be ranked O or Y) and to beat a Yokozuna.

It's not so much about beating a yokozuna as such, it's about beating the yusho contender(s). See e.g. Natsu 2008 where the shukun-sho went to the joi rikishi who beat yusho winner Kotooshu, not the two others who each had a win over a yokozuna. That's also why beating a yokozuna who ends with a bad record is far from a lock for the shukun-sho, as evidenced by Tochiozan's non-consideration last basho.

That being said, beating two yokozuna (especially as a joi newcomer) is probably enough, even if both Harumafuji and Kakuryu proceed to finish with mediocre totals.

Edit:

If one has a much better claim they'll give it to that guy.

That's pretty tautological. The definition of "better claim" is far from obvious though, as e.g. seen in Kyushu 2008. Edited by Asashosakari
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Serves me right for having my hypothesis confirmed by the last few years and not looking much further other than to when they gave out two. I think when it comes to pretty much everything in Sumo there's no simple explanation for what they do.

And the description of it is for the rikishi who performs the most outstanding relative to his rank. While there aren't any more recent examples similar to this, Asasekiryu got one for beating an Ozeki as an M12 in a Haru 2004 where Asashoryu went 15-0 as the only Yokozuna. Takatoriki got one for his yusho in Haru 2000 despite losing to all the Yokozuna he faced and not facing an Ozeki. He did beat both Sekiwake and a Komusubi, and was an M14 at the time. Those are much more fitting of the supposed description than a Sekiwake beating a Yokozuna to me, especially when the Sekiwake finishes 8-7, as that's pretty much average for them (my data says they average 8.1 wins).

Edited by Gurowake

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