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Nagoya 2014 Discussion Thread

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Newb question here: Would Tochiozan stay at Sekiwake due to his withdrawal/injury, or drop to Komosubi or high Maegashira?

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Newb question here: Would Tochiozan stay at Sekiwake due to his withdrawal/injury, or drop to Komosubi or high Maegashira?

No. His record will be 2-13 for the basho, and he will be ranked accordingly. That will probably place him in mid-Maegashira.

This is part of what some see as a systemic problem in ozumo, that there's no allowance for injury for anyone other than yokozuna or, to a more limited extent, ozeki. It's why rikishi often continue to fight hurt, since they don't want their rank affected by a withdrawal if they can at all prevent it. In some cases even an extra couple of wins can make a significant difference for the next banzuke.

Chronic injuries often never get a chance to completely heal as a result, and many rikishi end up with shorter careers than they might otherwise have enjoyed.

Edited by Kuroyama
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I'm not saying there was anything closely related to a script involved, but this is exactly the sort of thing that gets ST people (of which I am a member) insisting that the "help" was on.

I can't keep up with which conspiracy theory I'm supposed to adhere to these days... The kyokai is rigging it so that we can get a Japanese yokozuna? Then we get yokozuna Kakuryu? Hakuho is dropping matches on purpose so that there can be a Japanese yusho winner but that still hasn't happened and now there is a conspiracy because Hakuho is winning his bouts? My head is spinning...

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I'm not saying there was anything closely related to a script involved, but this is exactly the sort of thing that gets ST people (of which I am a member) insisting that the "help" was on.

I can't keep up with which conspiracy theory I'm supposed to adhere to these days... The kyokai is rigging it so that we can get a Japanese yokozuna? Then we get yokozuna Kakuryu? Hakuho is dropping matches on purpose so that there can be a Japanese yusho winner but that still hasn't happened and now there is a conspiracy because Hakuho is winning his bouts? My head is spinning...

Yes, it's all a conspiracy because they are trying their damndest to do things we wouldn't expect and therefore not make us think there are conspiracies. Isn't it obvious?

The way I see it, there are some motivational factors beyond wanting to win the match, and sometimes they can override the rikishi's ability to do his best. Some people just see more things as potentially motivating the rikishi because they want to think that everything happens for a reason. There's a significant luck factor in bouts relatively equal rikishi, and it makes people want to see patterns.

Edited by Gurowake

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very late day 14 highlights

Jk : Sekizuka (3-3) - Terumichi (3-3), 5-2 in previous meetings, similar career records, which one to leave the persistence watch ?

Jd : Masutenryu (3-3) - Hayate (3-3), first one in Hatsu 2011 went to Hayate, next two to Masutenryu

Sd : Aragyoshi (3-3) - Kakehashi (3-3), unusually long fight for Aragyoshi

Ms : Ohara (3-3) - Hokuo (3-3), also rather longeish, previous two encounters won by Ohara

J- : Akiseyama (6-7) - Kyokutaisei (6-7), revenge time for that single Mae-zumo meeting over 6 years ago ?

J+: Sotairyu (6-7) - Asahisho (6-7), 4-1 in previous meetings, even though their career high is M15 vs M11

J/M: Ichinonojo (12-1) - Azumaryu (7-6), nice bout, sadly with an unfortunate outcome (Carried away on a stretcher...)

M- : Kyokutenho (6-7) - Wakanosato (4-9), 15-23 in previous meetings, showing their age

M~: Chiyotairyu (9-4) - Arawashi (8-5), nice tottari

M+: Osunaarashi (6-7) - Yoshikaze (6-7), for a possible sanyaku spot on next banzuke

S : Hakuho (11-2) - Kakuryu (10-3), 31-4, though 2-2 this year

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day 15 lower division highlights

Jk : Azumayama (1-5) - Imaizumi (1-2-3), another utchari, well done

Jd- : Ota (5-1) - Shonannoumi (5-1), 1987-1998, 169-192 cm, career high Ms20-Jd73, short-long shikona :-)

Jd~: Tochitensho (5-1) - Harada (5-1), 1982-1995, 178-167 cm, career high Sd78-Jd51, and a long fight

J/S : Shodai (5-1) - Wakarikido (5-1), was Shodai able to beat this former Ms31 ?

Sd- : Kotaro (5-1) - Fukushima (5-1), Kotaro even one year older, but 16-4 vs a 50-36 record

Sd~: Orora (5-1) - Buseizan (5-1), Orora's last 6-1 dates from Haru 2010, Buseizan has been dropping away

Sd+: Sasayama (5-1) - Masutoo (5-1), how could he let this slip away ?

Ms- : Towanoyama (2-4) - Yuki (2-4), former 1-time Maegashira (unlucky to withdraw) struggling to stay in Makushita

Ms+: Tatsu (5-1) - Iwasaki (5-1), last basho Tatsu has beaten Iwasaki by yorikiri

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I suppose this has already been covered, but during the announcing for makushita, the inside edition guy came in and said the word from on high is that Goeido will clinch Ozeki if we wins today. I don't know how closely that follows the math, but there you go.

Edited by Asameshimae

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Tochinoshin took the first match with Ichinojo. They will meet again in a ketteisen.

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Looks like Endo's new coach is Mr Miyagi. Great crane impression there :)

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I've been thinking for the last couple of days that this is to be Giku's yusho. Now I'm sure of it, probably after a ketteisen with Hak!

No worries, one of these years you'll get one right.
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Couple of lower division newsbits. 44-year-old Hanakaze set a new record for most career wins by a non-sekitori rikishi, chalking up his 550th win on Nakabi to surpass the previous record set by Koriyama.

Shikihide-beya's Taiga has retired after a 13-year career. His danpatsu-shiki will take place on Senshuraku.

He is also the oldest current sumo wrestler, and the only one who is 44. Number 2 Dewanosato doesn't turn 44 until November.

I was there for that win and cheered for him. But he was all business and didn't acknowledge the cheering afterwards. That's okay, as long as he keeps scrapping. I wasn't aware of the record at the time, but I knew he got his kachi-koshi and can maybe stick around a little while longer.

edit: ah, I guess he broke the record a few days before, now that I look. Ah well.

Edited by Asameshimae

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Boy, komisubi and sekiwake are wide open for next basho aren't they? That'll be pretty cool seeing all new (new being a relative term of course) in junior sanyaku.

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I've been thinking for the last couple of days that this is to be Giku's yusho. Now I'm sure of it, probably after a ketteisen with Hak!

No worries, one of these years you'll get one right.

Yep, I blew that call!

Unlike my call in March.

Which was this year.

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I suppose this has already been covered, but during the announcing for makushita, the inside edition guy came in and said the word from on high is that Goeido will clinch Ozeki if we wins today. I don't know how closely that follows the math, but there you go.

Well, Goeido won and does have 32 wins over the last three basho, two jun-yusho and three consecutive shukun-sho. This might be one of the quietest successful ozeki runs in history if he indeed gets the promotion which wouldn't really surprise me. After all, he really is ozeki quality for some time now and looks good for the future which is taken into consideration for the promotion.

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Yep, I blew that call!

Unlike my call in March.

Which was this year.

What, that Kakuryu would become yokozuna? Yeah, that sure was a tough one you got correct there...
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I think Goueidou's promotion is a done deed. The judging department is recommending, Kitanoumi says if that's what they recommend that is what will be. So it be.

Edited by Kintamayama

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The NHK interviewer actually asked Goeido what kind of ozeki he would be so it must be a done deal. He has been ozeki level for a while so I'm all for it.

As for the 'conspiracy' stuff, I dislike this particular term as may anyone aware of its history. On one hand, we know that yaocho has occurred and perhaps still occurs (evidence on the phones during the yaocho scandal). There's the other kind of yaocho, of course, that most wrestlers would not call yaocho...letting someone win when it is vital to them and meaningless to you (although this is not a given, of course). But that multiple rikishi are behind plots to bring Japanese or popular rikishi to the top lacks any supporting evidence or precedent and is extremely unlikely, in my opinion, and probably self-defeating anyway.

Further, I think a lot of fans probably don't realise just how much of a factor luck is in a bout. With the speeds and strengths involved, one mistimed thrust or well-timed dodge is easily enough to bring a 'superior' rikishi down flat on his face. Many other factors come into play, not least mental ones (enthusiasm, fighting spirit etc.) Calling yaocho on a bout because a favoured hold is left open is up to the viewer, of course, but it is not definitive proof of anything.

For the record, I see no evidence of dislike of or prejudice against foreigners from the judges either...and the same goes for most of the fans apart from a few nasty characters whose dislike of foreigners is unlikely to be limited to sumo anyway. Most Japanese fans would love a Japanese yokozuna, of course, but among the fans I know, almost all of them respect and often like the foreign rikishi.

Edited by Pandaazuma
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Yes, NHK has already congratulated him during his Sansho interview. Three Japanese Ozeki now behind the three Mongolian Yokozuna!

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Tochinoshin took the first match with Ichinojo. They will meet again in a ketteisen.

The scheduled match:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfqtwWka6Bw

And the ketteisen:

Ichinojo needs to learn more than just power sumo, I think.

A couple observations - At about 1:21, did Ichinojo step out, possibly twice? And don't rely on Tochinoshin to keep you from falling off the dohyo - he'll grap you buy the pecs!

Edited by Fukurou

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After Hakuho beat Harumafuji there was a light drizzle of purple rain - any reason or just random/drunk fans?

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Well, Goeido won and does have 32 wins over the last three basho, two jun-yusho and three consecutive shukun-sho. This might be one of the quietest successful ozeki runs in history if he indeed gets the promotion which wouldn't really surprise me. After all, he really is ozeki quality for some time now and looks good for the future which is taken into consideration for the promotion.

"Quiet" is exactly the word that came to my mind about it, too. Not sure I recall any other ozeki run that wasn't even whispered about before Day 10 and not officially confirmed before Day 14. Wonder if that type of public restraint by the Kyokai will continue, or if it was just a lex Goeido. (Ditto for allowing awkward runs like 12-8-12.)

Anyway, I'm always in favour of giving rikishi the opportunity to sink or swim instead of trying to "protect" them (or Ozumo as a whole) from any possible failure, so thumbs up from me on the promotion. It's not like Goeido has anything left to achieve at the sekiwake rank. If he fails as ozeki, so be it, but maybe getting the monkey of his back will allow him to mature into a consistent 10/11-win guy now. His recent records against the other five high-rankers certainly look ozeki-worthy*, it's the other 10 bouts per basho where he's had issues.

* Last 6 bouts against each of them: 3-3 Hak, 2-4 Haru, 2-4 Kak, 4-2 Kise, 4-2 Giku.

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After Hakuho beat Harumafuji there was a light drizzle of purple rain - any reason or just random/drunk fans?

Possibly in recognition of it being his 30th yusho, but I'm just guessing.

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Speaking of yaocho. They aren't supposed to have their phones in the shitakubeya (preparation rooms) but I have friends who know some of them, and when they send a message, even when they are in the shitakubeya, most of the time, the message comes back "read" very quickly. One rule is already falling by the wayside.

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I would be happy to see Goeido promoted to ozeki. Some of his sumo this basho was pretty electrifying (and I'm not particularly a fan). I would be even happier to see more "quiet" being practised round the general subject of promotions. All the hype adds so much pressure to the rikishi under consideration that it is generally counter-productive.

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I think no one in his right mind ever talks about an Ozeki promotion coming off an 8-7. At least, I don't remember it ever happening, even with Prince Kisenosato. Usually 12 wins-8 wins warrants the usual "He'll be starting from scratch" remark.

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