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Nagoya 2014 Discussion Thread

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Is Osunaarashi really 22 years old? Is his paperwork legit?

Honestly...how many 22 year olds are as bald?

At this rate, he will look like Telly Sevalas in two to three years.

You sound bitter and somewhat judgemental towards non-Japanese rikishi, specially a certain muslim one. Maybe you should check your bias at the door.

The comment about baldness and age is hilarious, i've met people of all races who go bald at a very early age, japanese included.

Who cares anyway, both Endo and Oosunaarashi are fun to watch and clearly "rookies" learning the ropes.

Edited by Yasashiryu
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Kise-Shougiku bout. Looked like a Kotoshougiku isamiashi to me. No shinitai, he stepped out pretty quickly there. Problem is there is no clear shot of Kisenosato's heel in any of the replays, so the heel could have touched out first, but it didn't look like it..If that was shinitai, then Aminishiki should have been shinitai right before that as well..

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Kise-Shougiku bout. Looked like a Kotoshougiku isamiashi to me. No shinitai, he stepped out pretty quickly there. Problem is there is no clear shot of Kisenosato's heel in any of the replays, so the heel could have touched out first, but it didn't look like it..If that was shinitai, then Aminishiki should have been shinitai right before that as well..

I was about to comment on that. It’s definitely isamiashi, but I can see the shinitai call. Aminishiki’s situation was a WHOLE lot different, Shōhōzan touched down with his knee much earlier, I even called that while watching and was confused at the gyōji’s decision.

Nice bout by Terunofuji. I was hoping Ōsunaarashi could grab a few more wins just to get that sanshō, but it’s looking bad right now…

Also, Hakuhō as dominant as ever.

Not sure what Kakuryū’s plan was.

And I’m happy Kyokutenhō grabbed one more win, one left to go.

Edited by ALAKTORN
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Is Osunaarashi really 22 years old? Is his paperwork legit?

Honestly...how many 22 year olds are as bald?

At this rate, he will look like Telly Sevalas in two to three years.

You sound bitter and somewhat judgemental towards non-Japanese rikishi, specially a certain muslim one. Maybe you should check your bias at the door.

The comment about baldness and age is hilarious, i've met people of all races who go bald at a very early age, japanese included.

Who cares anyway, both Endo and Oosunaarashi are fun to watch and clearly "rookies" learning the ropes.

I have a bias against brute-force. It is a shame when sumo turns into an athletic spectacle.

I liked Oosunaarashi at first but the kachi-age turned me off and then some. I don't like seeing people getting knocked-out unless I am watching boxing (or watching a bully get what's coming to him/her).

I love Kaisei, Kyokutenho, Baruto, Terunofuji, Kakuryu, etc. I have no problem with Ichinojo, Takanoyama, Gagamaru, Kotoushu, Musashimaru, etc., etc., etc. They're not Japanese.

Like it or not, hair is an important part of sumo culture and the totality of sumo culture is what I am interested in. I couldn't care less about some silly combat spectacle.

Should I check my opinion at the door?

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Is Osunaarashi really 22 years old? Is his paperwork legit?

Honestly...how many 22 year olds are as bald?

At this rate, he will look like Telly Sevalas in two to three years.

You sound bitter and somewhat judgemental towards non-Japanese rikishi, specially a certain muslim one. Maybe you should check your bias at the door.

The comment about baldness and age is hilarious, i've met people of all races who go bald at a very early age, japanese included.

Who cares anyway, both Endo and Oosunaarashi are fun to watch and clearly "rookies" learning the ropes.

I have a bias against brute-force. It is a shame when sumo turns into an athletic spectacle.

I liked Oosunaarashi at first but the kachi-age turned me off and then some. I don't like seeing people getting knocked-out unless I am watching boxing (or watching a bully get what's coming to him/her).

I love Kaisei, Kyokutenho, Baruto, Terunofuji, Kakuryu, etc. I have no problem with Ichinojo, Takanoyama, Gagamaru, Kotoushu, Musashimaru, etc., etc., etc. They're not Japanese.

Like it or not, hair is an important part of sumo culture and the totality of sumo culture is what I am interested in. I couldn't care less about some silly combat spectacle.

Should I check my opinion at the door?

Not at all, you seem far more knowledgeable about sumo than me, I'm merely a newcomer. Mind you, I said check your BIAS not your opinion.

That said, I agree entirely and the culture of sumo is what also interests me; I sincerely hope it grows but stays true to its origins instead of starting to lose it's soul like (recently) kendo and iaido which are being basically prepackaged and sold to the West and increasingly becoming less and less budo/art forms and more "sports".

In short, and just leaving this link here:

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=6036

let me add that rikishi's chonmage changed with the cultural trends of the time, first with shaved pate like the samurai and later without, so it's not inconceivable to imagine rikishi having a certain leeway, given the influence of other factors on your hair (health, diet, male genetic pattern baldness, etc). It's like the "once they start going bald they are pressed to get out" myth, it's only a myth. Sure, the influx of foreigners is troubling but it as revitalised the culture of sumo and AFAIK, aside from minor incidents, most of them are truly fans of the art and the spirit of sumo.

Edited by Yasashiryu

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New Jonidan musings:

Shodai has been utterly dominant, looking like he's one of those guys coming off injury that missed 5 basho. But there are some other guys new to Jonidan to watch for, in rough order of dominance:

(edit: to be clear, this means career losses excluding Mz)

Shiba - only loss to Shodai

Nagao - only losses to Shodai and Shiba

Shuji - only losses to Nagao

Takagi - only losses to Shodai and Nagao

Harada - a bit more complex. Undefeated this basho, last basho losses only to Nagao and Shuji, previous basho losses in ring only to rikishi now in Sandanme, Kotaro and Mizuta, who are both doing well and may be undefeated (Mizuta's match today was apparently skipped on Arabira's coverage, and the result hasn't shown up on the NSK site as of this post). That is, similar to the above, his only losses are within a select group of high-acheiving rikishi.

That was after Day 6. It is now after day 10 and the only loss of those in that group was Harada to Takagi.

Also, I commented before that it looked like Shodai would face Shiba at 5-0. Well, someone at 4-0 further up the banzuke withdrew, messing things up a bit. Today we have Takagenji(Sd) v. Shodai and Shiba v. Tochiimari, and the winners of those matches will almost certainly be paired together for their final bout. Takagi looks to be in the other bracket and if he does go 7-0 will be in a playoff unless Takagenji wins both of his matches (and heads to the Sd playoff).

Or, of course, they could decide to go and do a bunch of weird stuff involving Hamaguchi, alone at 5-0 down in Jk; today he faces a Jonidan 4-1 not at the very bottom (3rd from the bottom with a 4-1) which says to me that they're going to be interested in promoting him further than normal and are looking for slightly tougher competition, although the difference between the bottom quarter of Jonidan and the top of Jonokuchi is probably minimal. But what do I know? What they do in the Jonokuchi torikumi is currently well beyond the realm of my understanding.

edit: And then Shodai has to go and lose his match and bring the whole house down somewhat. The others won, but now it's not nearly as impressive as having a trail of losses just in between otherwise undefeated rikishi. I was expecting Abiko to lose while watching his bout as well, but he managed to pull through.

Edited by Gurowake

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I think the Geeku and Goeido wins were as close as you'd get to perfect "forward-moving" sumo. Stay low, keep the legs moving, and in Geeku's case, he pushes off with both feet - not much Kise or Kakuryu or anyone could do against that.

Rashi reminds me a lot of Aran. Great body, but pick a style, for the love of broccoli. Either be a "Pusher" or be a belt man. His arms are long enough for the former , and he's really too tall and has a high centre of gravity for the latter.

And that slap by Hakuho could have been heard in Paris.

Edited by Treblemaker

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what's wrong with this guy?

Yeah, well, that's a good question.... We're working on it.

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And another thing (sorry for the triple post), Endou will be an Ozeki at the very least sometime in the future, as will Goeido. Rashi, I'm not sure of, but once he gets over the adolescent phase of his sumo career, he'll settle down into a really good M2-5 man. Something in the way he moves (I can hear Moti humming the tune now) really reminds me of Osh. Maybe a yusho or two but I think we're looking at Kotooshu ver 2.0.

Yoshikaze is the closest thing you're going to get to the manic of Asa, without the arsenal of moves. I love watching this guy. Like trying to fight a food processor.

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day 11 lower division highlights

Jk- : Nakayama (1-4) - Sadaisamu (1-4), the Takanoyama of Jonokuchi ?

Jk+: Takane (3-2) - Tamashinzan (3-2)

Jd- : Kotokudo (5-0) - Imafuku (5-0), former Sd84 vs former Jd28, hikkake

Jd+: Takayoshitoshi (4-1) - Hokutotsuru (4-1)

J/S : Shodai (5-0) - Takagenji (5-0), first real test for Shodai ?

Sd- : Kotaro (4-1) - Umetsu (4-1), also a mono-ii today :-)

Sd~: Chiyokiryu (4-1) - Daigofuji (4-1), and another one, utchari

Sd+: Abiko (5-0) - Mitotsukasa (5-0), still undefeated ?

Ms- : Meisei (4-1) - Ikeru (4-1), another great Ikeru show :-P , abisetaoshi

Ms- : Chiyoarashi (2-3) - Wakaryusei (2-3), disappointing from Chiyoarashi, can he avoid MK ?

Ms~: Chiyosakae (4-1) - Ryuonami (4-1)

Ms+: Iwasaki (4-1) - Kotomisen (4-1), Iwasaki to break new ground ?

Ms+: Ishiura (3-2) - Dewahayate (3-2), last time Ms2 vs current Ms4, katasukashi

Ms+: Kitaharima (3-2) - Onosho (3-2), some great quality in top Makushita today

J- : Satoyama (6-4) - Kyokutaisei (4-6), Kyokutaisei is somehow similar to Satoyama to me

J~: Amuru (6-4) - Daieisho (5-5), the other newcomer fighting to stay a sekitori

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Is Osunaarashi really 22 years old? Is his paperwork legit?

Honestly...how many 22 year olds are as bald?

At this rate, he will look like Telly Sevalas in two to three years.

You sound bitter and somewhat judgemental towards non-Japanese rikishi, specially a certain muslim one. Maybe you should check your bias at the door.

The comment about baldness and age is hilarious, i've met people of all races who go bald at a very early age, japanese included.

Who cares anyway, both Endo and Oosunaarashi are fun to watch and clearly "rookies" learning the ropes.

I have a bias against brute-force. It is a shame when sumo turns into an athletic spectacle...

Like it or not, hair is an important part of sumo culture and the totality of sumo culture is what I am interested in. I couldn't care less about some silly combat spectacle.

Should I check my opinion at the door?

Are you actually looking for a non-athletic spectacle where hair is vitally important to the culture? You are not looking for sumo. It sounds like a drag show cabaret...

I believe sumo is different than the ideals identified. Sumo IS an intensely athletic venture steeped in a mostly functional tradition. The skills are definitely based in form and technique. But form and technique can get a guy only so far. Speed, strength, and most intensely balance. A guy can't rise to the top with out a large measure of physicality and athleticism. You can't tell me that Hakuho, Ama, or even Kotoshogiku got where they are by not being a exquisitely trained and gifted athletes. You can't, attempting to do so would be a disgusting insult to the beauty and culture of this ancient sport. Otherwise Orora would be Y1E.

Sumo is not a cake decorating competition. There is room for a wide of variation of style. I see bits of Mongolian wrestling and greek wrestling every day during the basho. I love nearly all of it.

Having said that. The kachiage is getting ugly. Occasionally, fine. Daily and consistently used, it seems desperate (and I dig Osunarashi). I'd like to see him back off and work on his repertoire. He got to joi WAY too fast and his skill needs to catch up.

He is a decent oshi guy, is getting better on the belt, and is starting to get comfortable on the dohyo. He will never be Kotoshogiku. He would be wise to watch film of Akebono and other physically powerful oshi guys. Use the kachiage 2-4x a basho to keep aite off-guard. His move is either feared or respected and makes his opponents have to plan on dealing with it. I was hoping that it was setting up the Yokozuna bouts for non-kachiage tachiai and would slow down after.

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I believe sumo is different than the ideals identified. Sumo IS an intensely athletic venture steeped in a mostly functional tradition. The skills are definitely based in form and technique. But form and technique can get a guy only so far. Speed, strength, and most intensely balance. A guy can't rise to the top with out a large measure of physicality and athleticism. You can't tell me that Hakuho, Ama, or even Kotoshogiku got where they are by not being a exquisitely trained and gifted athletes. You can't, attempting to do so would be a disgusting insult to the beauty and culture of this ancient sport. Otherwise Orora would be Y1E.

And even in its pre-professional days, sumo was essentially a militaristic ritual. Sure, one with strong religious overtones, but no more so than anything else in those days, I suspect. People who over-emphasize the "culture" aspects (whatever that means exactly) make the mistake of assuming that the parts of sumo that have changed the least in the last 400 years must also be the parts that were most important 400 years ago, IMHO. And that's wrong - the "rough" parts might be a lot different now, but that's only because culture and society as a whole have undergone greater changes in those areas. Doesn't mean sumo was ever this almost-cerebral experience that some people try to turn it into. For people into that, I suggest cutting out the middleman and going straight for Shinto.
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Is Osunaarashi really 22 years old? Is his paperwork legit?

Honestly...how many 22 year olds are as bald?

At this rate, he will look like Telly Sevalas in two to three years.

You sound bitter and somewhat judgemental towards non-Japanese rikishi, specially a certain muslim one. Maybe you should check your bias at the door.

The comment about baldness and age is hilarious, i've met people of all races who go bald at a very early age, japanese included.

Who cares anyway, both Endo and Oosunaarashi are fun to watch and clearly "rookies" learning the ropes.

I have a bias against brute-force. It is a shame when sumo turns into an athletic spectacle...

Like it or not, hair is an important part of sumo culture and the totality of sumo culture is what I am interested in. I couldn't care less about some silly combat spectacle.

Should I check my opinion at the door?

Are you actually looking for a non-athletic spectacle where hair is vitally important to the culture? You are not looking for sumo. It sounds like a drag show cabaret...

I believe sumo is different than the ideals identified. Sumo IS an intensely athletic venture steeped in a mostly functional tradition. The skills are definitely based in form and technique. But form and technique can get a guy only so far. Speed, strength, and most intensely balance. A guy can't rise to the top with out a large measure of physicality and athleticism. You can't tell me that Hakuho, Ama, or even Kotoshogiku got where they are by not being a exquisitely trained and gifted athletes. You can't, attempting to do so would be a disgusting insult to the beauty and culture of this ancient sport. Otherwise Orora would be Y1E.

Sumo is not a cake decorating competition. There is room for a wide of variation of style. I see bits of Mongolian wrestling and greek wrestling every day during the basho. I love nearly all of it.

I don't like it when sumo degenerates into a spectacle.

Like it or not, hair is an important part of sumo culture. You don't care? OK

My point is that sumo is more than just a sport.

I know that the rikishi are athletes. So what?

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OK, Goeido is now officially on an Ozeki run, I think...

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OK, Goeido is now officially on an Ozeki run, I think...

If he keeps his usual pattern - which I am a bit afraid he will - it will rather remain an ozeki marathon...

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Hakuho vs Goeido bout day 11...

just watched that bout three times.

cant help myself, but it stinks !!

does it help anyone to add another Ozeki to the line of "Ozeki with almost no realistic chance of winning a well-deserved Yusho" ???

I like Goeido, but this bout just didnt look "fair & proper"

what do u guys think ?

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OK, Goeido is now officially on an Ozeki run, I think...

If he keeps his usual pattern - which I am a bit afraid he will - it will rather remain an ozeki marathon...

More like a steeplechase race where he clears the tall hurdles and the lake, only to veer off course and bump into a cameraman...

Edited by krindel
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Hakuho vs Goeido bout day 11...

just watched that bout three times.

cant help myself, but it stinks !!

does it help anyone to add another Ozeki to the line of "Ozeki with almost no realistic chance of winning a well-deserved Yusho" ???

I like Goeido, but this bout just didnt look "fair & proper"

what do u guys think ?

Just focus on Hakuhos left foot in the end. He wasn't able to move it without losing his balance. Then the turn to the right and he was in the inferior position. It was just a mix from bad luck on one side and skill on the other.

Edit:

And I think that Hakuho certainly wants a double digit count on zensho-yushos. Especially when it is for his 30th yusho! So there is no reasonably reason for him to lose any single bout.

Edited by Tsubame

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Well, today was zabuton day,

(ノ°□°)ノ彡回

Edited by Yasashiryu
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I agree with Tsubame. Hakuho has no interest whatsoever bolstering Goeido.

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And I think that Hakuho certainly wants a double digit count on zensho-yushos.

He already has 10.

I think Hakuhō should’ve tried to battle for a better position rather than going for that desperate throw… though it was quite a fantastic attempt, I’ve never seen anyone going that low with their hips to make a throw; it shows how good Hakuhō’s technique is.

Kotoshōgiku in the hunt for the cup, who’d have ever thought?

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Hakuho vs Goeido bout day 11...

just watched that bout three times.

cant help myself, but it stinks !!

does it help anyone to add another Ozeki to the line of "Ozeki with almost no realistic chance of winning a well-deserved Yusho" ???

I like Goeido, but this bout just didnt look "fair & proper"

what do u guys think ?

Just focus on Hakuhos left foot in the end. He wasn't able to move it without losing his balance. Then the turn to the right and he was in the inferior position. It was just a mix from bad luck on one side and skill on the other.

Edit:

And I think that Hakuho certainly wants a double digit count on zensho-yushos. Especially when it is for his 30th yusho! So there is no reasonably reason for him to lose any single bout.

Goeido won that fair and square. Watch his left hand as Hak tried to pull and throw. Goeido grabbed Hak's thigh and pulled him off balance, partly causing the collapse. It was skillful sumo and watching both their faces afterwards, Hak cared about losing and Goeido REALLY cared about the win

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Chiyotairyu has become a one trick pony. Go forward then backwards and pull. If that doesn't work he has no plan B. It's working for him here but he needs more if he wants to be Ozeki. He is so powerful going forward and has shown himself to be skillful, yet he seems to be in the Hatakikomi rut. Of all the great young hopes I thought he would be the one but I can't see him getting beyond lower Sanyaku if he doesn't have more variability.

Conversely, Jokoryu has gradually worked on his game and is becoming a decent makuuchi rikishi. He may not make Ozeki but the fundamentally good belt game that rushed him through the lower ranks is starting to work at the top level as he gets used to defending skillful opponents. I think he may still have significant improvements to make.

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Abiko Kentaro is undefeated in Sumo. Ranked Sd21e. It will be interesting to see how far he can go. I cannot find any more information on him. Does anyone have more information on him? Thanks

Abiko is a Tokyo native from the same hometown (Katsushika-ku) as Chiyotairyu.

Began sumo practice in elementary school with Chiyotairyu.

In high school he won the All-Japan junior championship for his weight class.

He competed in college sumo at Nichidai, but was unable to win any individual championships during college.

Endo was his senpai at Nichidai (one year ahead of him), and after college he followed Endo to Oitekaze Beya.

His future goal as listed on the heya’a website is “to exceed Endo” :-)

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AE%89%E5%BD%A6%E5%89%A3%E5%A4%AA%E9%83%8E

http://oitekaze.com/aviko.html

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