Natsu 2014 discussion thread **probable spoilers**

[krindel 671]

I have a question to those more knowledgeable. If two rikishi from one stable become yokozuna, does that still mean they won't be facing each other and was ever a time in history with two stablemate yokozuna?

Yes... They do not face each other unless it is in a playoff. Their have been a few examples of Yokozuna from the same stable. Chiyonofuji and Hokutoumi are the most recent example that I can think of. They were both in Kokonoe..

And of course, more recently the famous Hanada brothers, Takanohana and Wakanohana who were both brothers and stablemates (so prohibited from fighting against each other from both rules).

In fact, if I remember correctly, they only fought one bout in their careers against each other, and it was won by Wakanohana, not his more accomplished brother :).

[rzombie1988 157]

For the people who obsess about the lack of a second yusho: So if Kakuryu had won the playoff in January, everything would be hunky-dory? I mean, it has to be, since that's apparently the only reason people can muster against the promotion...

Funny to think that there were 31 bouts in Kakuryu's yokozuna run, and 30 of them were simply a pre- and post-show to The One Bout To Decide It All. And that bout doesn't even count on Kakuryu's official record.

(Likewise, if Kakuryu had done absolutely nothing different in January and March, but Hakuho had lost a couple more bouts in January, everything would be fine, too. Right?)

I'd have no problem with him being Yokozuna if he had to accomplish the same thing everyone since Akebono has had to accomplish. I bet these people wouldn't be too happy about doing similar deeds and getting passed over either.

Winning the title is all that matters. I don't see the Miami Heat reminiscing about their title loss to the Mav's nor do I see Tim Duncan wanting to celebrate the 1 footer he couldn't put in against the Heat last year that gave the Heat the title.

Edited May 26, 2014 by rzombie1988

[Gurowake 3,922]

Your professional team sports analogy is totally worthless. Maybe if you focused on an individual sport, or talked about hall-of-famers in some respect you might have merit along those lines. But the situations are radically different and regardless, are the runners-up going to stop selling their merchandise just because they only managed second? No, they're still going to sell stuff with "Conference Champion" on it.

Now, the real problem is that he was never strong as an Ozeki outside of those two tournaments. His best previous performance was his last tournament at Sekiwake. I totally have a problem with them promoting him on the basis of 2 strong tournaments when his past showed that he wasn't particularly strong in comparison with the recent field. But just because his two 14-1s didn't both win the tournament? I disagree with that argument on the basis that it shows dependance on the results of other matches. I would focus more on how the Yokozuna promotion guidelines cover less tournaments than the Ozeki guidelines; I much rather would require a rikishi to have 48 wins over 4 tournaments than whatever number happens to be required to win two straight basho.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Gurowake

[torquato 1,075]

I much rather would require a rikishi to have 48 wins over 4 tournaments

Kisenosato sure would like that idea. He would have been promoted to Yokozunahood in Kyushu-basho last year.

However as opposed to the 58 Yokozuna in the DB only 38 rikishi in Makuuchi would have made it http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&sum_wins=48&sum_range=4&show_sum=on&group_by=rikishi&showhighest=on&form1_m=on

[Asojima 2,870]

An Ozeki's win-loss record is meaningless. His career is controlled by yusho and kadoban. As soon as he is eliminated from the yusho race, he starts to pick and choose the matches he must win to get his 8 wins. Excess effort can lead to an injury that can severely damage his career. An ozeki who fights on to get 9 or more wins is an idiot.

[Chiyozakura 130]

I'd have no problem with him being Yokozuna if he had to accomplish the same thing everyone since Akebono has had to accomplish. I bet these people wouldn't be too happy about doing similar deeds and getting passed over either.

Winning the title is all that matters. I don't see the Miami Heat reminiscing about their title loss to the Mav's nor do I see Tim Duncan wanting to celebrate the 1 footer he couldn't put in against the Heat last year that gave the Heat the title.

It does not make sense to compare the victory in a knockout competition where the last man standing is the winner and the victory of a roundrobin style tournament. In sumo you can afford some bad matches and still win, just because nobody else is doing well, either. Buyuzan's 9-6 Juryo Yusho is by no means equal to Baruto's 15-0. The one was a mediocre result that got incredibly lucky while the other was an outstanding achievement.

I have taken a look at your list from the other thread and you are missing several points. The most important one is that the number of wins does matter a lot. Musashimaru was not even considered to be tsunatori after his 11-4 Yusho just because the result was too bad.

Also it is important that you stay in the Yusho race to the end and not are without chances and start winning when the pressure is off. Kaio for example was out of the yusho race in the second week and let Asashoryu win an early Yusho. That has a different weight than if Kakuryu forces Hakuho into a playoff. With the exception of that occasion Kaio never came close to back-to-back Yusho-jun-Yusho with halfway respectable results and that is why he stayed a career Ozeki who just did not make it.

The same thing counts for Konishiki. In the sandwich basho between his two Yusho he finished the first week with 4-3 and was already hopelessly behind newcomers Akebono and Takahanada who dominated the basho.

Generally I think people don't appreciate enough what a great time for Sumo we are currently enjoying. We have an outstanding Yokozuna who is still very strong but has lost his invincibility, a good Yokozuna in Harumafuji, a new Yokozuna who is still pretty much a mystery in Kakuryu plus a very strong Ozeki in Kisenosato. And we have some very interesting rikishi coming up in Endo, Osunaarashi, Terunofuji, Ichinojo plus an unusually solid lower sanyaku in Goeido and Tochiozan. I think we have not have such an interesting field since the mid 90's.

[Asameshimae 220]

An Ozeki's win-loss record is meaningless. His career is controlled by yusho and kadoban. As soon as he is eliminated from the yusho race, he starts to pick and choose the matches he must win to get his 8 wins. Excess effort can lead to an injury that can severely damage his career. An ozeki who fights on to get 9 or more wins is an idiot.

Makes me think of the other thread and how sumo mirrors the Japanese way of doing things.

It is difficult to become an ozeki, but easier to stay an ozeki once you have achieved it. Very much like the education system. Once you get into a junior high school or university, regardless of how difficult it was to get in, you are largely safe, you can largely coast. I am not saying ozeki is a cakewalk, even less so now that it isn't as cool as it once was not so long ago for wrestlers to fall on their bums to give an ailing ozeki those few needed wins, but what's there is there.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

An Ozeki's win-loss record is meaningless. His career is controlled by yusho and kadoban. As soon as he is eliminated from the yusho race, he starts to pick and choose the matches he must win to get his 8 wins. Excess effort can lead to an injury that can severely damage his career. An ozeki who fights on to get 9 or more wins is an idiot.

But that's only true because of the way the rules are now. If something like a 48-in-4 guideline was actually used, of course we'd see an adjustment in how ozeki perform.

[rzombie1988 157]

Your professional team sports analogy is totally worthless. Maybe if you focused on an individual sport, or talked about hall-of-famers in some respect you might have merit along those lines. But the situations are radically different and regardless, are the runners-up going to stop selling their merchandise just because they only managed second? No, they're still going to sell stuff with "Conference Champion" on it.

Now, the real problem is that he was never strong as an Ozeki outside of those two tournaments. His best previous performance was his last tournament at Sekiwake. I totally have a problem with them promoting him on the basis of 2 strong tournaments when his past showed that he wasn't particularly strong in comparison with the recent field. But just because his two 14-1s didn't both win the tournament? I disagree with that argument on the basis that it shows dependance on the results of other matches. I would focus more on how the Yokozuna promotion guidelines cover less tournaments than the Ozeki guidelines; I much rather would require a rikishi to have 48 wins over 4 tournaments than whatever number happens to be required to win two straight basho.

Yeah, I'm sure LeBron really cares about selling a "Conference champion" shirt over winning a ring. Puhleaze. Do you guys even watch sports?

[Asashosakari 18,786]

It does not make sense to compare the victory in a knockout competition where the last man standing is the winner and the victory of a roundrobin style tournament. In sumo you can afford some bad matches and still win, just because nobody else is doing well, either. Buyuzan's 9-6 Juryo Yusho is by no means equal to Baruto's 15-0. The one was a mediocre result that got incredibly lucky while the other was an outstanding achievement.

Although in fairness at least Buyuzan still had to win three playoff bouts. ;-) The real lucksters are probably these guys who won juryo yusho outright with just 10 wins.

Also in the realm of rather lucky results was of course Wakanohana's promotion-clincher - only 12 wins and not even a playoff needed. Add in that (like any Futagoyama rikishi) he was spared from facing several top rankers and that's probably the equivalent of only 11 wins in a schedule like today's top rankers have to fight. But sure, Kakuryu's 14 wins are worthless because he didn't win the playoff...

Hypothetical: What if Ozumo had never introduced playoffs and was still simply awarding the yusho to the highest-ranked rikishi among those tied for the lead? Kakuryu never would have lost to Hakuho.

Generally I think people don't appreciate enough what a great time for Sumo we are currently enjoying. We have an outstanding Yokozuna who is still very strong but has lost his invincibility, a good Yokozuna in Harumafuji, a new Yokozuna who is still pretty much a mystery in Kakuryu plus a very strong Ozeki in Kisenosato. And we have some very interesting rikishi coming up in Endo, Osunaarashi, Terunofuji, Ichinojo plus an unusually solid lower sanyaku in Goeido and Tochiozan. I think we have not have such an interesting field since the mid 90's.

This.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Yeah, I'm sure LeBron really cares about selling a "Conference champion" shirt over winning a ring. Puhleaze. Do you guys even watch sports?

Do you even watch sumo?

[Asashosakari 18,786]

... plus an unusually solid lower sanyaku in Goeido and Tochiozan.

Incidentally, it has flown a bit under the radar, but Tochiozan has now done something Goeido has yet to achieve: 30 wins in sanyaku.

[Masumasumasu 902]

There seems to be some controversy brewing. After attaining his 29th yusho, the Yokozuna neglected to sing the national anthem. The following day, he cancelled the obligatory post-yusho press conference.

It is just speculation but it appears that Hakuho may have felt snubbed by the fans, who on shenshuraku overwhelmingly rooted for Harumafuji. And in front of his parents, no less.

[rzombie1988 157]

Yeah, I'm sure LeBron really cares about selling a "Conference champion" shirt over winning a ring. Puhleaze. Do you guys even watch sports?

Do you even watch sumo?

Do you even understand sumo?

Edited May 26, 2014 by rzombie1988

[Masumasumasu 902]

Yeah, I'm sure LeBron really cares about selling a "Conference champion" shirt over winning a ring. Puhleaze. Do you guys even watch sports?

Do you even watch sumo?

Yeah, I'm sure LeBron really cares about selling a "Conference champion" shirt over winning a ring. Puhleaze. Do you guys even watch sports?

Who the hell is LeBron?

[rzombie1988 157]

Yeah, I'm sure LeBron really cares about selling a "Conference champion" shirt over winning a ring. Puhleaze. Do you guys even watch sports?

Do you even watch sumo?

Yeah, I'm sure LeBron really cares about selling a "Conference champion" shirt over winning a ring. Puhleaze. Do you guys even watch sports?

Who the hell is LeBron?

A Mae-zumo level rikishi.

Edited May 26, 2014 by rzombie1988

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Yeah, I'm sure LeBron really cares about selling a "Conference champion" shirt over winning a ring. Puhleaze. Do you guys even watch sports?

Do you even watch sumo?

[childish repeat comment snipped]

You're one of those incredibly boring sports fans who seriously believe that the player/team in second place is nothing but the first loser, aren't you?

[kuroimori 1,634]

Yeah, I'm sure LeBron really cares about selling a "Conference champion" shirt over winning a ring. Puhleaze. Do you guys even watch sports?

Do you even watch sumo?

Yeah, I'm sure LeBron really cares about selling a "Conference champion" shirt over winning a ring. Puhleaze. Do you guys even watch sports?

Who the hell is LeBron?

he wears some kind of small version mawashi on his head

[rzombie1988 157]

Yeah, I'm sure LeBron really cares about selling a "Conference champion" shirt over winning a ring. Puhleaze. Do you guys even watch sports?

Do you even watch sumo?

Do you even understand sumo?

[childish comment snipped]

Edited May 26, 2014 by rzombie1988

[kuroimori 1,634]

Yeah, I'm sure LeBron really cares about selling a "Conference champion" shirt over winning a ring. Puhleaze. Do you guys even watch sports?

Do you even watch sumo?

Do you even understand sumo?

[childish comment snipped]

You need to snip one more comment, I guess... (Sigh...)

Edited May 26, 2014 by kuroimori

[rzombie1988 157]

I really hope I can play sports against some of you guys. I'll win and you guys will be totally thrilled to lose.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

I really hope I can play sports against some of you guys. I'll win and you guys will be totally thrilled to lose.

Ah, so you're unable to appreciate the difference between participating in a sport and merely watching it. That explains a lot.

[rzombie1988 157]

I really hope I can play sports against some of you guys. I'll win and you guys will be totally thrilled to lose.

Ah, so you're unable to appreciate the difference between participating in a sport and merely watching it. That explains a lot.

Bro, you don't "merely watch" sumo. No one here does, or they wouldn't be here.

I really hope I see some of you on the opposite team sometime. You'll be as happy to lose as I'll be to win.

Edited May 26, 2014 by rzombie1988

[Asashosakari 18,786]

You need to snip one more comment, I guess... (Sigh...)

FWIW, the comment I had snipped was a verbatim repeat of the silly LeBron line. I guess even our zombie friend realized how childish a comeback that was and quickly edited it in post #323.

And for the record: I only wish I actually understood sumo. :-) That's part of the appeal.

[rzombie1988 157]

You need to snip one more comment, I guess... (Sigh...)

FWIW, the comment I had snipped was a verbatim repeat of the silly LeBron line. I guess even our zombie friend realized how childish a comeback that was and quickly edited it in post #323.

And for the record: I only wish I actually understood sumo. :-) That's part of the appeal.

Hey as long as you are admitting to not understanding sumo or athletics in general, it's cool with me.

LeBron didn't win any titles by being content with 2nd.

Edited May 26, 2014 by rzombie1988