Natsu 2014 discussion thread **probable spoilers**

[ryafuji 788]

@bettega: I’d say now it all depends on Harumafuji and how much he wants to play spoiler… if he wanted to win for some reason, he could go for his usual henka-like tachi-ai and I think that’d beat Hakuhō. Then it’d be up to Kisenosato to challenge him, could be fun to see a kettei-sen between them, but I agree the chances are small.

These kind of comments always make me smile. Even though Harumafuji cannot win the Yusho anymore there will be a lot at stake for him. If he beats Hakuho he proves he is still on the same level and he finishes with 12 wins which is the standard requirement for a Yokozuna. That means he will be pretty safe from severe criticism from the Yokozuna Deliberation Council.

Even more is at stake for Kakuryu, though, as the difference between 9 and 10 wins is huge. 10 wins is the minimum requirement for a Yokozuna. If he goes below his Yokozuna career will start with pressure like Harumafuji has done and it has taken him quite an effort to get back to the safe side.

So neither Hakuho nor Kisenosato will get a bye tomorrow.

I'm not sure it will make a huge amount of difference whether Kakuryu finishes 9-6 or 10-5 - both are mediocre scores for a yokozuna, just one is a little less mediocre than the other. I don't believe there's anything that says ten wins is a "minimum requirement". Myself, I always thought a par score for a yokozuna was around 11-4.

[kuroimori 1,634]

Ichinojo Juryo Yusho!

Winner of a 4-way kettei-sen

He dispatched Kotoyuki before clinching the Juryo Division win against Kagamio - both in convincing fashion.

[Chiyozakura 127]

@bettega: I’d say now it all depends on Harumafuji and how much he wants to play spoiler… if he wanted to win for some reason, he could go for his usual henka-like tachi-ai and I think that’d beat Hakuhō. Then it’d be up to Kisenosato to challenge him, could be fun to see a kettei-sen between them, but I agree the chances are small.

These kind of comments always make me smile. Even though Harumafuji cannot win the Yusho anymore there will be a lot at stake for him. If he beats Hakuho he proves he is still on the same level and he finishes with 12 wins which is the standard requirement for a Yokozuna. That means he will be pretty safe from severe criticism from the Yokozuna Deliberation Council.

Even more is at stake for Kakuryu, though, as the difference between 9 and 10 wins is huge. 10 wins is the minimum requirement for a Yokozuna. If he goes below his Yokozuna career will start with pressure like Harumafuji has done and it has taken him quite an effort to get back to the safe side.

So neither Hakuho nor Kisenosato will get a bye tomorrow.

I'm not sure it will make a huge amount of difference whether Kakuryu finishes 9-6 or 10-5 - both are mediocre scores for a yokozuna, just one is a little less mediocre than the other. I don't believe there's anything that says ten wins is a "minimum requirement". Myself, I always thought a par score for a yokozuna was around 11-4.

There is nothing written down about it. 12 wins counts as the expected number for a Yokozuna since Kitanoumi defined it as an active rikishi and it has somehow stayed like that. When Akebono was in a slump in the 90's and public criticism was rising the Yokozuna Deliberation Council backed him by saying that he was still achieving respectable results as he had 10-5 and 11-4. However when Harumafuji started his career with a 9-6 he was already in deep trouble which even a zensho Yusho in the next tournament could not improve much. Only recently has he managed to calm down the critics. So that is why I consider the tenth win for Kakuryu to be so important.

[kuroimori 1,634]

Kise beat Kakuryu, now it is all in Hakuho's basho to win - or to please the audience...

[kuroimori 1,634]

Kise beat Kakuryu, now it is all in Hakuho's basho to win - or to please the audience...

Hakuho didn't care much about the the expecations and just took his 29th Yusho with ease.

Kisenosato has a nice new starting piece for another Yok-run and should be happy with his result.

I already have my doubts whether he can capitalize on that 13-2 Jun-Yusho at the Nagoya basho.

Edited May 25, 2014 by kuroimori

[Treblemaker 254]

Hmmm..... Let me be the first on the record to say that the Hak-HF bout had a slight aroma about it... Looked too easy, HF did a roll way too early and with much complacency.

Not poking any conspiracy theory (ok, maybe I am?) but I expected a much better final bout. After watching Hak do some strange things this basho, this one seemed almost choreographed.

[krindel 671]

Kise beat Kakuryu, now it is all in Hakuho's basho to win - or to please the audience...

Hakuho didn't care much about the the expecations and just took his 29th Yusho with ease.

Kisenosato has a nice new starting piece for another Yok-run and should be happy with his result.

I already have my doubts whether he can capitalize on that 13-2 Jun-Yusho at the Nagoya basho.

It will be very tough for him next basho, not sure it is the most favorable basho to be attempting a promotion. With both Kakuryu and Kotoshogiku desperate for wins, and Harumafuji not in the best spot either, and given Hakuho's general animosity towards Kisenosato, he'll have a tough going outmuscling everyone to get a yusho.

[kuroimori 1,634]

Liked the Myogiryu - Arawashi match as well.

A nifty sotogake countered into a spectactular nage-no-uchiai

[ALAKTORN 346]

I half-suspect it won't matter because Kise's bout against Kakuryu has "dumb loss" written all over it.

You suspected wrong. :-P

Hmmm..... Let me be the first on the record to say that the Hak-HF bout had a slight aroma about it... Looked too easy, HF did a roll way too early and with much complacency.

Not poking any conspiracy theory (ok, maybe I am?) but I expected a much better final bout. After watching Hak do some strange things this basho, this one seemed almost choreographed.

I think the bout was perfectly fine. Hakuhō went in with a strategy, left harite → jump to the left to grab the uwate, reminiscent of Harumafuji’s tachi-ai (giving him his own medicine?). By that point, Hakuhō had already won, the position was screaming “uwatenage”. Edited May 25, 2014 by ALAKTORN

[ryafuji 788]

Hmmm..... Let me be the first on the record to say that the Hak-HF bout had a slight aroma about it... Looked too easy, HF did a roll way too early and with much complacency.

Not poking any conspiracy theory (ok, maybe I am?) but I expected a much better final bout. After watching Hak do some strange things this basho, this one seemed almost choreographed.

You see this is why such conspiracy theories are so ridiculous. If Hakuho and Harumafuji really wanted to choreograph a bout, they could quite easily come up with something longer, more entertaining and more convincing than that.

[Mukonoso 266]

"I'm not saying aliens but... it's aliens"

​

[Chiyozakura 127]

Hmmm..... Let me be the first on the record to say that the Hak-HF bout had a slight aroma about it... Looked too easy, HF did a roll way too early and with much complacency.

Not poking any conspiracy theory (ok, maybe I am?) but I expected a much better final bout. After watching Hak do some strange things this basho, this one seemed almost choreographed.

You see this is why such conspiracy theories are so ridiculous. If Hakuho and Harumafuji really wanted to choreograph a bout, they could quite easily come up with something longer, more entertaining and more convincing than that.

That is the great thing about the conspiracy theories around here lately. Before it was only "The NSK are setting things up for a Japanese Yokozuna" (which they have been terrible at), but now it is also the "Mongolian Helpers Club". Now whatever the result is: It must have been staged!

[Chiyozakura 127]

Welcome to sanyakuhood, Ikioi!

The celebration is a bit premature as Ikioi could still end up behind Goeido, Aoiyama and Aminishiki and thus only be Maegashira #1. Still his chances are excellent now.

Looks like he really will stay at Maegashira as Goeido keeps his Sekiwake rank and Aoiyama and Aminishiki should be ahead of him and thus occupy the Komusubi slots.

[Treblemaker 254]

Hmmm..... Let me be the first on the record to say that the Hak-HF bout had a slight aroma about it... Looked too easy, HF did a roll way too early and with much complacency.

Not poking any conspiracy theory (ok, maybe I am?) but I expected a much better final bout. After watching Hak do some strange things this basho, this one seemed almost choreographed.

You see this is why such conspiracy theories are so ridiculous. If Hakuho and Harumafuji really wanted to choreograph a bout, they could quite easily come up with something longer, more entertaining and more convincing than that.

That is the great thing about the conspiracy theories around here lately. Before it was only "The NSK are setting things up for a Japanese Yokozuna" (which they have been terrible at), but now it is also the "Mongolian Helpers Club". Now whatever the result is: It must have been staged!

Ok, I've looked at it again, and it looks legit, but at the time, and live, it just seemed too quick, too easy and not the bout I was expecting, given the circumstances with the yusho on the line.

I was honestly looking forward to a tie-breaker, and having Kise redeem himself.

edit: Not that I was looking forward to a Kise yusho, necessarily. I just felt bad for the kid. One really bad bout, and he comes in with the jun-yusho. Which is ok, but had he taken the Hakuho bout, I'm pretty sure he would have had the trophies as well.

But that's "sports".

Edited May 25, 2014 by Treblemaker

[Kintamayama 42,292]

If we're into "tumbling", I found Kotoshougiku's very uncharacteristic. The more I look at it, the more it seems weird. I'm not saying staged, but a 5-9 or a 5-10 makes no difference to an already kadobound Ozeki, whilst a 7-8 or an 8-7 makes a world of difference to someone like Goueidou who is supposedly on the verge of Ozekihood. The world is round.

[evilwaldo 11]

It looked easy because it was easy. Hakuho tugged twice to the left making it seem like he was going for a left toss when in reality he was waiting for Harumafuji to defend that side opening up a toss to the right.

You catch the tugs on the replay before Hakuho makes his move.

[shumitto 417]

If we're into "tumbling", I found Kotoshougiku's very uncharacteristic. The more I look at it, the more it seems weird. I'm not saying staged, but a 5-9 or a 5-10 makes no difference to an already kadobound Ozeki, whilst a 7-8 or an 8-7 makes a world of difference to someone like Goueidou who is supposedly on the verge of Ozekihood. The world is round.

While your thoughts make sense, I think a 5-9 Kotoshogiku was not very willing to further injury himself in a bout that for him had zero importance. By the way, he showed tons of spirit in fighting to the end being clearly in pain.

EDIT: why so many shinpan out there if Takekaze can get away with such a clear hair pull ?

Edited May 25, 2014 by shumitto

[torquato 1,075]

why so many shinpan out there if Takekaze can get away with such a clear hair pull ?

They were expecting Hakuho to raise his hand, but couldn't find him.

[ryafuji 788]

Why has there been such a huge increase in disqualifications for hair-pulling in recent years? There are just five hansoku in makuuchi recorded in the database up to 2003, and none at all for a period of 24 years from 1972 to 1996, but 20 since 2003. (I realise that hansoku is not just hair-pulling, but I'll eat my hat if any of these disqualifications are for something else).

[kuroimori 1,634]

Why has there been such a huge increase in disqualifications for hair-pulling in recent years? There are just five hansoku in makuuchi recorded in the database up to 2003, and none at all for a period of 24 years from 1972 to 1996, but 20 since 2003. (I realise that hansoku is not just hair-pulling, but I'll eat my hat if any of these disqualifications are for something else).

Maybe the Kyokai called for a "Mage Awareness Basho" campaign but the PR for it never really got started.

Indeed there had been quite a few "bad hair days" in the last 2 weeks of Ozumo.

[Asashosakari 17,282]

Why has there been such a huge increase in disqualifications for hair-pulling in recent years? There are just five hansoku in makuuchi recorded in the database up to 2003, and none at all for a period of 24 years from 1972 to 1996, but 20 since 2003. (I realise that hansoku is not just hair-pulling, but I'll eat my hat if any of these disqualifications are for something else).

My guess: More pushing and slapdown attacks = more bouts with hands located at opponent's head level.

[rzombie1988 157]

If we're into "tumbling", I found Kotoshougiku's very uncharacteristic. The more I look at it, the more it seems weird. I'm not saying staged, but a 5-9 or a 5-10 makes no difference to an already kadobound Ozeki, whilst a 7-8 or an 8-7 makes a world of difference to someone like Goueidou who is supposedly on the verge of Ozekihood. The world is round.

Koto's looked the most suspicious to me today. That was a heck of a roll...

[rzombie1988 157]

I'm not really surprised by Kakuryu's result this basho. In his last 10 basho he went:

9-6

8-7

8-7

10-5

10-5

9-6

9-6

14-1

14-1

9-6

Just looking at his record, you can see that 9-6's are a lot more likely coming from him than a 14-1. I just thought he benefited from some recent weak fields and various injury issues with Harumafuji and Hakuho. I'm still against promoting someone without two straight basho wins and I'm going to stick by that.

I only really watched about the last week of this basho. Way too much going on here unfortunately, and araibira's constant copyright issues always kills my interest some.

I'm expecting a pretty competitive basho next time around. Hak's chasing the record, HF doesn't wanna become the 3rd ranked Yokozuna, Kak's gonna be desperate to forget this mess, Kisen basically watched Kak take his spot and is getting closer to his first title, add a Goeido who has a long shot at an Ozeki spot then up and comers like Osuna and it should be a lot of fun. I also do think the field up top is getting a lot more closer and competitve which makes for good tournaments.

Edited May 25, 2014 by rzombie1988

[Benevolance 2,349]

I also do think the field up top is getting a lot more closer and competitve which makes for good tournaments.

So especially this.

[Asashosakari 17,282]

If we're into "tumbling", I found Kotoshougiku's very uncharacteristic. The more I look at it, the more it seems weird. I'm not saying staged, but a 5-9 or a 5-10 makes no difference to an already kadobound Ozeki, whilst a 7-8 or an 8-7 makes a world of difference to someone like Goueidou who is supposedly on the verge of Ozekihood. The world is round.

Here's a guy in a (for him) completely meaningless bout, whose main objective is stay in positions where there's no risk of further injury. If he gets thrown from such a bog-standard position, of course it's going to look little different from a training fall.

I do wish he'd have done the time-honoured thing and gone kyujo upon picking up his 8th loss. Almost any random opponent would have been a more worthwhile test for Goeido today.