Takanoyama - Metabolism discussion (split from Yokozuna Ozeki Preparat

[Fukurou 535]

Takanoyama.

Takanoyama and Yoshikaze chat.

What will it take to put some weight on Takanoyama??

At the risk of criticism, since I've just undone this, I like the use of spoiler blocks to conceal the photos. I don't always have time to look, so having them hidden until I choose to look is helpful.

[Kuroyama 715]

What will it take to put some weight on Takanoyama??

He has a metabolism that would be the envy of anyone who was not a sumo wrestler. They've tried all of what usually works in sumo. They've tried it with Japanese food. They've tried it with Czech food. They've even tried insulin. I don't even think that aging past 40 will work.

[Benevolance 1,696]

They should try video games and rpgs. It's worked wonders for my friends and me. I bet with just 4 or 5 LAN parties, we can slow Takanoyama's metabolism to a crawl. Or give him diabetes.

[Kuroyama 715]

Subtherapeutic doses of antibiotics in animal feed has done way more harm than good, and not just because of the "obesity epidemic", which finds an adequate explanation in caloric consumption and activity levels anyway. We're now seeing the development of antibiotic-resistant "superbugs", and misuse of antibiotics is why.

[wanderer 159]

The fact that human body can’t produce fat out of thin air should be taught from very early age. Overeating is the only, and core cause of obesity. Asking why people overeat, and trying to find answer to this question may at best result in flourishing of weight loss industry, which means no net weight loss. There is no such thing as denying science my friend, although you are in a stage of denial at the moment. Soon you will realize that people can, and should eat less. Anyone who has difficulty understanding this fact may consider visiting countries, or regions stricken by famine, and see how children die of starvation while they are dying of excessive eating.

Edited May 6, 2014 by wanderer

[Fukurou 535]

The fact that human body can’t produce fat out of thin air should be taught from very early age. Overeating is the only, and core cause of obesity. Asking why people overeat, and trying to find answer to this question may at best result in flourishing of weight loss industry, which means no net weight loss. There is no such thing as denying science my friend, although you are in a stage of denial at the moment.

So why are you denying the scientifically proven links between weight and genetics? This includes such things as metabolism, which is apparently one reason Takanoyama has trouble putting on weight even when reports are that he eats a lot.

[Asashosakari 14,540]

Yeah, that's a rather silly article that gets bogged down in semantics and rapidly loses sight of the actual issues - in the end it's just a standard-issue "the powers that be aren't telling you the whole truth!!!" stream of consciousness rant.

In mathematics, conditions are distinguished as being either necessary or sufficient. As far as weight gain goes, eating too much is clearly a necessary condition* (at least for the 99+% of people who don't suffer from certain rare disorders), while everything else - one's particular metabolic rate, current age, amount of physical exercise, etc. - are merely sufficient conditions. Yes, it's scientifically interesting to research exactly how all those factors affect weight gain (and why they do to different degrees for different people), but in practical terms the necessary condition is far more important to address. Nobody needs to wait for the next 20 years of biochemical research to start dealing with their personal weight issues.

* Heck, even the author of that article doesn't deny it, he just proceeds to completely ignore it once he's offered a cursory acknowledgment.

[wanderer 159]

I don't remember denying scientifically proven links between weight and genetics. Some people get fatter easier, because their ancestral gene pool has been squeezed through repeated famine induced genetic bottlenecks. Still that person's body can not produce fat out of thin air. Eat less, that is number one priority. Good example is Takanahana. He was eating a lot onpurpose, building lots of muscle, and fat. Then he started eating less on purpose again. Now look at him. It is no brainer really.

My point is that modern society in US lost its sense on the issue of obesity. It is quite amazing that people don't think that they are eating unnecessarily large amount of food. It may be unintentional but I can't help thinking that whether this weird social confusion is driven by corporations. Ask everyone why they eat too much. You will find 300 million different answers. Corporations will start producing 300 million different pills, diet foods, TV gurus will show up to teach you how to lose weight, and this is really hilarious. In reality they are telling people that eating too much is not their fault, it is just their body that is producing excess fat on its own. Think about it. This is really just a marketing.

Just get up in the morning and start eating less. Believe me, you won't die, or become sick. Your body is a result of 4 billion of years of evolution. The best thing you can do is mess with it less.

For those who don't believe in evolution, your body is created by God not to carry excess amount of fat. Don't mess with it.

Edited May 6, 2014 by wanderer

[kuroimori 1,631]

Don't mean to interrupt, but

new thread anyone?

[Fukurou 535]

Don't mean to interrupt, but

new thread anyone?

Suggest making the 1st post of the new thread #12 of this thread - I really should have started a new one in the first place.

eta - I should have started a new thread because Takanoyama is neither a Yokozuna or an Ozeki, and this thread is supposed to be about them.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Fukurou

[Kuroyama 715]

Don't mean to interrupt, but

new thread anyone?

Oh, maybe.

What it comes down to is that there are always outliers; always counterexamples to any general rule you set down. For 99% of all people, neither genetics nor putative contamination of food nor any other factor contributes more to their weight than how much they eat and how active they are.

Yes, some people have hormonal problems. Yes, some people have genetic issues. Takanoyama is clearly among the latter. Under a regimen where something more than 99% of deshi experience significant weight gain even when they're not otherwise inclined to (e.g. Takanohana), he maintains an Adonis-like physique.

But that's neither most rikishi, nor is it most of us. Most of us who gain unwanted weight do so because we 1) eat too much; and 2) don't get enough exercise. Period. All the arm-waving in the world isn't going to change that.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Kuroyama

[Benevolance 1,696]

That's fine, but I'm still soliciting donations for the "Big Macs and Halo 4 for Takanoyama" fund.

[Mukonoso 266]

Liberal use of Rogaine might help Takanoyama put on a tiny bit of weight and make it easier for the guy who does his hair.

I kid because I care. With Kotooshuu out I'm switching his cheer energy to Tak. He still has to share it with Osunaarashi though (who has a better chance of working his way up anyway even without my cheers).

[Kuroyama 715]

That's fine, but I'm still soliciting donations for the "Big Macs and Halo 4 for Takanoyama" fund.

Gonna set up a Kickstarter, then?

[Jakusotsu 3,581]

Don't mean to interrupt, but

new thread anyone?

Done.

[yorikiried by fate 1,585]

Maybe he should just eat with a minimum of chewing. That's what my brother-in-law does and it helps a great deal if you are aiming for the magical 140!

[Asashosakari 14,540]

That's fine, but I'm still soliciting donations for the "Big Macs and Halo 4 for Takanoyama" fund.

Gonna set up a Kickstarter, then?

Somebody once set up a kickstarter for Tokitenku, and look what it's led to...

[I am the Yokozuna 97]

I recently took up on swimming. I am not expert on physiology or dietology or do not possess any insight but my observations are that some days under all equal conditions - same distance, same speed, without drinking any water or going to toilet - my body could lose up to 1.5kg after a 40 minutes swim. Best recorded up to now. Usually it is a 800 gr. loss.

Since I started swimming, I have seen people training harder than me, but having the same body while I lost substantial body mass. A single example but it leads me to believe that as everything it is up to various factor, not a single one. Genes - I can count the days on my hand when I am not told that I am lost cause for swimming and have failed my body but not taking up the sport seriously in my teens. Then, diet; then hormones, then surrounding environment.

"Well, you know, it is like, your opinion" man kind of situation"

[Asashosakari 14,540]

Since I started swimming, I have seen people training harder than me, but having the same body while I lost substantial body mass.

As you presumably don't know how much they're eating, any conclusions you draw from that are based on seriously incomplete data.

[Kuroyama 715]

If your body worked like a bomb calorimeter[, that might be true. In reality, your body is a complex biochemical machine.

Of course it is. That's why there's variation. But the body can't be TOO unlike a bomb calorimeter. Thermodynamics is an invariant.

All too often, this kind of thing is tossed about by people desperately looking for some way, any way, to lose weight without working at it. Or as an excuse to hide the fact they're not really working at it -- self-reporting of energy intake tends to be underreported, particularly among the obese. Or by people trying to sell you some kind of snake oil to "balance your hormones".

Fact is, exercise and controlling the diet works for fat loss/lean mass gain far, far more often than it does not. As I said, there are exceptions, and that's where you have to look at something amiss with the "complex biomechanical machine".

If famine and starvation is your example, read here:

My example is very much the opposite. When, as all too often the case in the United States, sedentary men eat more than 3,000 Calories per day, obesity is only to be expected. It's entirely possible that what is consumed makes a difference, but until you control how much, it matters much less than it might.

I recently took up on swimming. I am not expert on physiology or dietology or do not possess any insight but my observations are that some days under all equal conditions - same distance, same speed, without drinking any water or going to toilet - my body could lose up to 1.5kg after a 40 minutes swim. Best recorded up to now. Usually it is a 800 gr. loss.

Since I started swimming, I have seen people training harder than me, but having the same body while I lost substantial body mass. A single example but it leads me to believe that as everything it is up to various factor, not a single one. Genes - I can count the days on my hand when I am not told that I am lost cause for swimming and have failed my body but not taking up the sport seriously in my teens. Then, diet; then hormones, then surrounding environment.

"Well, you know, it is like, your opinion" man kind of situation"

When I was running regularly, I might lose as much as 5 lbs (about 2.25 kg) during a 7 mile run on a warm day. It was water. You do sweat, even when you swim. It's also not easy to judge how hard a given swimmer might be working: body composition determines buoyancy, and a more buoyant swimmer doesn't need to work as hard in the water. Body shape affects drag; that makes a difference too. So might the temperature of the water: the cooler the water the harder your body will have to work to maintain thermal homeostasis. Etc., etc., etc. There are a lot of unknowns. Edited May 8, 2014 by Kuroyama

[yorikiried by fate 1,585]

What he also could do is start smoking and then quit. Works for me.

[Rusev 10]

Well i think we should just agree that if people which are experts in making athletes fat are unable to get him fat, chances are he can't get fat. And why he needs to? Its always entertaining to see small guys battle with the giants.

Also his metabolism is not fad, but exactly the oposite. Fast metabolism means that you absorb the calories fast, therefore you put weight, slow metabolism is not absorbing all the calories, instead you visit the toilet more often.

[Kuroyama 715]

You might want to ask a physicist about thermodynamics. Of course it's an invariant.

I did. I spent quite a bit of time studying the subject in excruciating mathematical detail too, thanks.

If Gary Taubes thinks he can show that for most people, most of the time, calories in, calories out means nothing, then he's contradicting both the experience of every trainer in the world and the best science available. http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/why-we-get-fat/ I'm sure he sells a lot of books promoting his low-calorie-in-disguise diets. That doesn't make him right.

[wanderer 159]

Of course it is. That's why there's variation. But the body can't be TOO unlike a bomb calorimeter. Thermodynamics is an invariant.

You might want to ask a physicist about thermodynamics. Of course it's an invariant. But it explains nothing. Why is alcoholic what they are? Because they drink too much? That tells you nothing you don't already know. Nothing has been done to establish causality. Circular reasoning does not help understanding at all.

Takaonyama appears to be roughly in energy balance. He is not consuming enough. If he's eating six times a day, he needs to eat more. If he's eating ten times a day, he needs to eat more. If he's eating 12,000 calories a day, he needs to eat more.

Hmm, As a physicist I can tell you that thermodynamics is the foundation to explain every energy conversion processes, not only in weight related issues, but in our entire universe. The statement "Thermodynamics presents correlation not causality" is fundamentally wrong. Thermodynamics literally reveals how every bit of energy we consume is being converted to its various forms, and balances at the end.

If there is no energy input, no further energy conversion processes to talk about in layman's terms. That is why first thing one must do is eat less to lose weight or eat more to gain weight. Period.

Degree of fat producing ability is of course different in people, some are perhaps out of order. I suspect, vast majority of those who have out of order metabolism (especially those who gain weight "uncontrollably") might have damaged their bio-molecular machinery by eating excessive amount of food for excessive period of time. So the machinery is broken, and he/she needs medical help. Parents in US do it a lot by making their kids obese at early age, unfortunately. On top of it, these parents lie to their children that they look pretty until the poor child hits teenage years. Another emotional breakdown. Children are under our care, so we should at least tell the truth that they don't look great when they are fat.

I always wanted to ask overly overweight people what happens when they start eating less. Do they die? Do they get sick? Do they face life threatening condition? Or just anger from hunger? My understanding is that once starved, cells switch to drawing energy from body fat first, then from muscles if continued, which would otherwise be called burning the fat. Thermodynamics is right here. Eat less, your cells will do the rest.

Edited May 9, 2014 by wanderer

[wanderer 159]

In Takanoyama's case he can gain muscle mass if he can't gain body fat. Harumafuji had and still has difficulty gaining weight. But he somehow found the way to gain muscle mass, which might have contributed him being promoted to Yokozuna. Takanoyama looks to have not only small body fat also his muscles are smaller compared to other Sumo wrestlers. Watching Nascar while drinking beer might help.

Edited May 9, 2014 by wanderer