Video Stream - Availability

[ALAKTORN 346]

I don’t really know, but I think the problem here isn’t the NSK, it’s Ustream. The copyright strikes were claimed by “Ustream Asia Inc”, not by the NSK.

And this is really sad… araibira was not only bringing sumō to the world, but he was building a large database of matches that the NSK itself doesn’t seem to care to keep…

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

Torquato...thanks for the reply. Why do you say those those times are gone? You mean it's no longer technically feasible, or that Kajiyama is inactive? If necessary, I'd be willing to hook my PC up to NHK and provide access directly to my PC but someone would have to guide me on the technical aspect. Also, I need to know the possible pitfalls of that before I do it. Isn't allowing people to access my PC real-time the equivalent of inviting everyone physically round to my house?? And that ain't illegal (yet).

[Kuroyama 715]

also those Ustream had no rights in whatsoever...

No, that's precisely wrong.

I believe what torquato meant were the backlog of videos from before Ustream became involved in the feed. Clearly, Ustream has no rights to videos from 2 years ago.

Elements in the kyokai are known to have been using the clips in the database for training and other purposes. If it's any consolation, they have lost out too.

Then perhaps some interested party with the necessary contacts can work it from that end? Edited January 15, 2014 by Kuroyama

[ronnie 221]

Torquato...thanks for the reply. Why do you say those those times are gone? You mean it's no longer technically feasible, or that Kajiyama is inactive? If necessary, I'd be willing to hook my PC up to NHK and provide access directly to my PC but someone would have to guide me on the technical aspect. Also, I need to know the possible pitfalls of that before I do it. Isn't allowing people to access my PC real-time the equivalent of inviting everyone physically round to my house?? And that ain't illegal (yet).

Simon, I just tried to have a look at Kaji's vids and I'm getting a 403 access denied. They were working at least up to November. I know this because I had a hankering to see Asa at his best again. Maybe nothing to do with the live stream, but it's a bit coincidental.

[torquato 1,075]

I don’t really know, but I think the problem here isn’t the NSK, it’s Ustream. The copyright strikes were claimed by “Ustream Asia Inc”, not by the NSK.

Yes that's true. But. Ultimately the rights belong to the NSK, because they provide the signal they uplink to ustream. NSK is the content-provider. Ustream is granted certain right's to deal with this content over a certain period of time for a certain area. Don't know the details. But I could imagine that sometimes later we could find a solution...

Torquato...thanks for the reply. Why do you say those those times are gone? You mean it's no longer technically feasible, or that Kajiyama is inactive? If necessary, I'd be willing to hook my PC up to NHK and provide access directly to my PC but someone would have to guide me on the technical aspect. Also, I need to know the possible pitfalls of that before I do it. Isn't allowing people to access my PC real-time the equivalent of inviting everyone physically round to my house?? And that ain't illegal (yet).

Well, technically it can be done, yes. But for video streaming you need, besides some decent dedicated hardeware, a good uplink and quite some bandwidth. Something the average ISP does not provide to the average houshaold... This is not thaaaaat easy to get it done safely stable properly...

If you want to share your NHK signal I would be the last to complain though. ;-)

Im sure that if the current situation will last for the next basho(s) we sooner or later will see Osumo on the dark areas of the internet. Something which wasn't neccessary befor.

[torquato 1,075]

also those Ustream had no rights in whatsoever...

No, that's precisely wrong.

I believe what torquato meant were the backlog of videos from before Ustream became involved in the feed. Clearly, Ustream has no rights to videos from 2 years ago.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

[Asojima 2,874]

Ustream complained to UTube about the copyright problem. UTube shut down the entire account which included the pre-PPV and pre-Ustream videos. It is all or nothing on the account shutdown.

[Benevolance 2,534]

Ah, that part is true. But I don't think the 3-strike rule that the US uses differentiates between legit and illegal content. It's all or nothing, because it's easier for Google to simply shut down an offender than sort out what's fair.

I'm still hopeful that the kyokai will come up with a better offering come March.

Edit: Asojima beat me to the punch.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Benevolance

[Asashosakari 20,263]

Any idea if he could recover all the old videos from when the stream was free, if he agreed to the deletion of the claimed Ustream content? Or is it simply all gone regardless?

As far as I can tell Youtube might not actually delete any videos that were lost in "drive-by" fashion (via the closing of an account), only the ones that had a copyright infringement notice filed against them - that was only the final 13 videos today, starting from Kitataiki-Yoshikaze. On a quick googling I've read about a guy whose account was erroneously disabled - however, for a claimed advertising violation, not copyright issues - and when it was reinstated a month later, all his videos were still there. So this may mean that the old videos are still somewhere on Youtube's servers for an unknown period of time.

However, I don't see any realistic way of actually getting the account turned on again, short of Ustream withdrawing their copyright claims. After all, Youtube didn't close the account because Ustream specifically asked for it, they closed it simply because the account had received too many warnings. Unless the cause of these warnings becomes void, there's no way to get Youtube to rescind its decision (which was almost certainly taken automatically anyway, not with any human involvement). Well, one could contest Ustream Asia's copyright claim, but that would be plain stupid as it would amount to an intentionally false legal declaration.

[Asashosakari 20,263]

How about not having a YouTube channel but just doing what Kajiyama used to do? I think he basically hooked his PC up to the cable or satellite or whatever and let people watch the content directly. I don't know about the technical feasibility of this, but is it not worth trying?

That only worked because Kajiyama had access to a machine with a very wide uplink that was able to handle pushing out so much data. Anybody trying to do that with consumer equipment would have to channel the stream through a site like justin.tv (or, cough, Ustream), and a rebroadcasted PPV stream is unlikely to survive on there for very long. Edited January 16, 2014 by Asashosakari

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

I have done a little digging with my contacts and an inside Japanese source has told me that the Kyokai has been trying to get the videos taken down almost since the start. They weren't very aggressive about it but Araibira, when he started asking for donations, essentially monetising content the Kyokai had provided free up to that point, forced their hand. They were getting strong complaints from Japanese media organizations who have to pay for sumo rights. Someone making money from the stream without paying for rights meant if they didn't act they would likely be in breach of contract with those organisations.

This source has asked to remain unnamed, so I can't tell you who it is (even by private mail). However, the source is reliable.

Not sure where to go from here. Any ideas, geniuses? If Araibara didn't ask for donations, would he be able to continue? Not sure. And indeed why would he be expected to if there was no incentive for him?

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

How about not having a YouTube channel but just doing what Kajiyama used to do? I think he basically hooked his PC up to the cable or satellite or whatever and let people watch the content directly. I don't know about the technical feasibility of this, but is it not worth trying?

That only worked because Kajiyama had access to a machine with a very wide uplink that was able to handle pushing out so much data. Anybody trying to do that with consumer equipment would have to channel the stream through a site like justin.tv (or, cough, Ustream), and a rebroadcasted PPV stream is unlikely to survive on there for very long.

I will email Kaji now! He might be OK to stream this, even if it is just occasionally. Something to get the foreign fans through this bleak time until we find a better solution.

[Treblemaker 254]

Well, this classy move by the Kyokai has pretty much made me lose any interest in sumo. I'm not into numbers, data and games. For me it has always been about the action and the bouts. Now not being able to see anything (without coughing up a ridiculous amount of $$ which I can't afford), I'm done with all of this.

So, unless you live in Japan, or have significant amounts of shekels to throw away, you're out in the cold.

So now, why do we need a Sumo Forum?

[Asashosakari 20,263]

Maybe araibira should contact the NSK after the basho sometime in Feb. through official channels and ask about the possibility of going on with what he was doing in the past. Perhaps not as an almost live feed, but with a certain delay not to interfere with the stream service... At least it's worth a try to see where the NSK stands...

Depends on what you consider "a certain delay"...one day? One week? After the basho? They're justifying their pricing scheme with the ability to watch in time-delayed fashion - based on that it's unlikely that Ustream will want any competition. Few people were watching araibira's videos "live" (you could just watch the stream itself if you wanted that), most were catching up later in the day, or the next few days. That's exactly the market Ustream is going for here.

In the end, there are really two issues here - the disappearance of a service for time-delayed viewing, and the disappearance of a video archive (through the DB front-end or via araibira's channel). The former affects more people directly, but the latter might actually be the greater loss of value. After all, as things stand right now there will be no Hatsu basho footage archive anywhere once the March tournament begins and Ustream stops allowing access to the Hatsu recordings.

[Asashosakari 20,263]

... and the disappearance of a video archive (through the DB front-end or via araibira's channel).

On that note - it's quite ironic, from what I can tell (via the video durations) the Ustream recorded videos are cut mostly the same way I've done it with the free stream for my personal collection and for the occasional DB fill-ins, namely at the shimpan shift breaks. All it would take to make the Ustream offering palatable to most people is a more reasonable pricing scheme, and the possibility to archive the footage on a free platform (like Youtube) after the for-pay viewing period has ended. At that point it would just be a matter of tagging the bouts for the DB, and I'm sure we could round up enough people on here to do that.

Unless the Kyokai has plans for its own online video archive, but even if they do there's no way that would cover all bouts down to jonokuchi. There's just no money in that, and only idiots volunteers like us would be interested in preserving those bouts.

[torquato 1,075]

That's exacly what I was talking about when I said 'delay'. After this basho someone should find a way to at least rescue a public available archive. That has a value on its own. For exactly the reasons you name... It's the NSK to contact to find a solution for this...

[Kuroyama 715]

I have done a little digging with my contacts and an inside Japanese source has told me that the Kyokai has been trying to get the videos taken down almost since the start. They weren't very aggressive about it but Araibira, when he started asking for donations, essentially monetising content the Kyokai had provided free up to that point, forced their hand. They were getting strong complaints from Japanese media organizations who have to pay for sumo rights. Someone making money from the stream without paying for rights meant if they didn't act they would likely be in breach of contract with those organisations.

This source has asked to remain unnamed, so I can't tell you who it is (even by private mail). However, the source is reliable.

I don't doubt your source said what they said, but what they said is nonsense. Copyright owners don't have to "try" in any kind of "aggressive" way to get infringing content removed from YT. All it takes is a few clicks on their complaint page, and YT routinely errs on the side of copyright claimants (even when they later turn out to be bogus) over uploaders.

Clearly, they weren't seriously trying at all before. They may have to say they'd been trying to save face before the media organizations, but getting infringing content removed is so effortless that it's not a credible claim.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Kuroyama

[Masumasumasu 902]

Well, this classy move by the Kyokai has pretty much made me lose any interest in sumo. I'm not into numbers, data and games. For me it has always been about the action and the bouts. Now not being able to see anything (without coughing up a ridiculous amount of $$ which I can't afford), I'm done with all of this.

So, unless you live in Japan, or have significant amounts of shekels to throw away, you're out in the cold.

So now, why do we need a Sumo Forum?

I thought you had access to TVJapan.

[I am the Yokozuna 222]

They were getting strong complaints from Japanese media organizations who have to pay for sumo rights. Someone making money from the stream without paying for rights meant if they didn't act they would likely be in breach of contract with those organisations.

Most media organizations on the regular TV here use NHK video. I do not see how their claims are related to the Ustream low quality video. No respected TV would put the Ustream footage in their sports news segment. Japanese TV and broadcasting is very slow catching up with online video platforms. Very few if any content is available. So many programs are broadcast once and never seen again. Yes, you could buy them on a DVD, but profits from those, I highly doubt they were to exist, are at best negligible in a program budget planning while YouTube or any other service offers opportunities for monetizing on a larger scale.

I do not know whether Araibira was making or has made any money out of it, but he has put a lot of effort foregoing income from other activity - he has not bought a BMW or something. (I hope so) So he at least deserve some reward to keep him awake to do the job.

Clueless strawman arguments as ever.

I need to have my TV record the broadcast, which would have been nice but for one problem - some days Juryo is on BS or NHK-E only and then NHK G broadcast only makuuchi or upper makuuchi from 17.000 if there is any parliamentary debate. So, how do you plan for that?

[Couginishiki 33]

New here but fyi Oosunaarashi just tweeted support for Araibira. He had been posting links to his matches as provided by Arabira via twitter. Nice to see some love despite it being from a young foreigner.

@Oosunaarashi: No meaning for #sumo without @araibira .

Couginishiki

[Mark.Buckton 68]

FWLIW the stream quality was excellent while it lasted - at least in central Tokyo.

[kuroimori 1,634]

I have done a little digging with my contacts and an inside Japanese source has told me that the Kyokai has been trying to get the videos taken down almost since the start. They weren't very aggressive about it but Araibira, when he started asking for donations, essentially monetising content the Kyokai had provided free up to that point, forced their hand. They were getting strong complaints from Japanese media organizations who have to pay for sumo rights. Someone making money from the stream without paying for rights meant if they didn't act they would likely be in breach of contract with those organisations.

This source has asked to remain unnamed, so I can't tell you who it is (even by private mail). However, the source is reliable.

I don't doubt your source said what they said, but what they said is nonsense. Copyright owners don't have to "try" in any kind of "aggressive" way to get infringing content removed from YT. All it takes is a few clicks on their complaint page, and YT routinely errs on the side of copyright claimants (even when they later turn out to be bogus) over uploaders.

Clearly, they weren't seriously trying at all before. They may have to say they'd been trying to save face before the media organizations, but getting infringing content removed is so effortless that it's not a credible claim.

I think the NSK did not even try to have araibira's channel removed before coz they did not have any clue how to deal with those tricky "series of tubes" thingy...

[Vikanohara 171]

I don't see NHK agreeing to this.

I don't see anyone willing to pay this price-does not make any sense on any level. An NHk satellite subscription costs 20$

I don't see anyone willing to pay at all for a low-def no commentary one and a half camera broadcast.

I don't see anyone living in Japan affected by this, as everyone has NHK.

This is aimed totally at the overseas audience of Japanese expats and gaijin fans.

This was planned by a foreigner living in Japan who convinced someone else that there is a lucrative foreign fan market out there.

We have always had a feed' terrible as it was at first.

This is unbelievable.

At least I'll have more free time..

I still hope in the next 15 minutes this will turn out to be nothing and I will be able to delete this, but I fear tomorrow, I'll be cryin'.

Didn't even know what was going on until now. Well, that means more free time indeed.

[Vikanohara 171]

Ok, so I think we can all officially agree that our powder is now wet.

Which is too bad. I echo ALL of the sentiments as listed above, and the tone of my original post, all the way up there, stands as written.

Screw'em. Just on principle alone.

At least I won't have to get up at 3:00 a.m. to catch the action anymore.

...............................................

So, waddya want to do now? Anyone bring cards? Monopoly? Scrabble? Netflix?

I've got about 2500 board games waiting to be played. You're all invited to visit Belgium. :-P

[Vikanohara 171]

Sigh. The biggest loss is obviously in terms of (near) real-time and time-delayed watching, but I'm going to miss having such a handy bout video archive through the DB. I suppose I'm better off than most thanks to the (probably now no longer growing) BD-R stack of recordings I have here, but I can't exactly envision myself reaching for a disc every time I'd like to watch a random bout from some tournaments ago, so it's all the same really.

I personally wouldn't mind not to be able to watch live, nor time-delayed anymore. But not being able to pick out a couple of bouts from favouried rikishi in their current & previous basho anymore is the biggest thing I will miss. But I don't want to give up on sumo. First, there might come another way to watch (at least some) video footage for free or a small price ? People will look for ways, I suppose. And if not, I could just follow as I did before, just analyzing the results. Though I'm sure after all the sweetness, it won't be the same anymore.