YDC on the next yokozuna run

[Akinomaki 36,900]

Like Kitanoumi yesterday, the YDC also declares that for Kisenosato a 13-2 or better yusho is demanded to become yokozuna. Uchiyama: “Kisenosato steadily has been getting stronger. If possible I want him to get a 15-0 yusho.” Several times emphasizing that only a yusho will get him there – no 14-1 without one (I'm sure they'd give it to him nonetheless if he'd get that in a play-off) and not for one with 12 wins.

They were honoring the contest spirit of HF in getting the yusho – they apparently did the right thing last time in giving him one full year to prove himself and not putting him under pressure each basho like before.

But: “Harumafuji should not only go by speed but do a bit more yokozuna-like sumo. Then he will become a great yokozuna equal to Hakuho.”

About Hakuho: Still a yokozuna solid as a rock

http://sankei.jp.msn.com/sports/news/131125/mrt13112519110003-n1.htm

http://www.nikkansports.com/sports/sumo/news/f-sp-tp3-20131125-1223138.html

http://www.jiji.com/jc/c?g=spo_30&k=2013112500795

http://hochi.yomiuri.co.jp/sports/sumo/news/20131125-OHT1T00112.htm

[krindel 671]

But: “Harumafuji should not only go by speed but do a bit more yokozuna-like sumo. Then he will become a great yokozuna equal to Hakuho.”

Seriously?

[p2501 15]

Harumafuji is too light to do sumo like Kisenosato (which is what I think they meant with yokozuna-like sumo: straight forward strength and weight based sumo).

[yorikiried by fate 1,842]

But: “Harumafuji should not only go by speed but do a bit more yokozuna-like sumo. Then he will become a great yokozuna equal to Hakuho.”

Seriously?

Yeah, I think after being forced to tolerate the likes of Chiyonofuji in the past, the guys are just fed up with all this speed and mobility crap...

[yorikiried by fate 1,842]

Yokozuna-zumo = If you can't hump him, dump him.

[Kuroyama 715]

But: “Harumafuji should not only go by speed but do a bit more yokozuna-like sumo. Then he will become a great yokozuna equal to Hakuho.”

Seriously?

This is not the first time they've said this. So yes, seriously.

[kuroimori 1,634]

Go(n)e-ido couldn't handle the pressure of a media hype ozeki run this time,

so it is back to hyping Kisenosato for Yok at the upcoming basho.

If all the hype will be too much to cope for Kise once again,

they can try Goeido one more time before Endo takes the chair of the hype department.

[Akinomaki 36,900]

YDC chief Uchiyama with Tamanoi-oykata after the committee session.

http://www.daily.co.jp/sumo/2013/11/26/0006526276.shtml

NHK news7 (hidden) day after video: YDC, Kisenosato

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20131125/k10013326591000.html

Kise for the yokozuna-run will abstain from alcohol. Now the rikishi have a break till the jungyo on the 1^st.

http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2013/11/26/kiji/K20131126007085200.html

Edited November 26, 2013 by Akinomaki

[ronnie 221]

This is something in Ozumo that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Members of the NSK are obliged to retire at 65 and take no further part in sumo, but they populate these groups with septe/octogenerians. I understand the concept of the wisdom of age, but the members of the YDC seem to be lacking somewhat in that department.

Also, if they don't think that Harumafuji does "yokozuna-like sumo", why did they recommend his promotion?

Edited November 26, 2013 by ronnie

[Koorifuu 621]

And it is obvious that Harumafuji can do nothing right. He doesn't win enough. Then when he does win enough it is not Yokozuna sumo. The YDC should disband. They are worthless IMO.

And a few months ago it was even more intolerable.

[Benevolance 2,349]

Except for the smart ones.

Also, if they don't think that Harumafuji does "yokozuna-like sumo", why did they recommend his promotion?

As I understand it, they got caught in their own "2 yushos = a yokozuna" trap, that they set after they made a bad call on prematurely promoting a previous yokozuna. And really, back-to-back zensho yusho with wins over Omega Force Hakuho is impressive, and undeniably yokozuna-like.

[Kuroyama 715]

Except for the smart ones.

Also, if they don't think that Harumafuji does "yokozuna-like sumo", why did they recommend his promotion?

As I understand it, they got caught in their own "2 yushos = a yokozuna" trap, that they set after they made a bad call on prematurely promoting a previous yokozuna. And really, back-to-back zensho yusho with wins over Omega Force Hakuho is impressive, and undeniably yokozuna-like.

The very idea, though, that yokozuna must employ a certain narrow range of styles is absurd on its face.

[Benevolance 2,349]

I figure the whole thing went down something like this:

Kise: He hit me!

YDC: Did you hit Kise?

Haru: Yes. I hit him really hard.

YDC: You can't hit people in sumo.

Haru: Ex-Terao hit people.

Ex-Terao: I'm ex-Terao!

YDC: Well, Yokozuna don't hit people.

Haru: Asashoryu hit people all the time!

YDC: That's sort of our point...

Kise: My eye is swollen!

YDC: And that frog thing has to go. It's taunting people.

Haru: Takamisakari does something like that.

YDC: But he's Japanese. And he barely wins.

Haru: What about Kotoshogiku's back bit?

YDC: Japanese! And you can't be so fast, either.

Haru: What? But Chiyonofuji was fast!

YDC: Exactly. We don't...

Chiyonofuji: Hey, I forgot my bento at home. Give me your lunch money.

YDC: Here you go, sir!

Haru: That was awesome!

[rzombie1988 157]

If Kisenosato gets the nod with only one title, it will backfire. I could totally see Harumafuji and Hakuho being pissed about it as well as other people who had only won one basho. It's not fair and if it doesn't work, it will dilute the title of Yokozuna and it'll tarnish Kisenosato. We could be seeing the next Onokuni, as he got his promotion with 1 title, a 12-3 and a 13-2. He never won another title.

The current system is perfect. It's challenging but, you know, every Yokozuna since the rule really got pushed with Asahifuji/Akebono has had the credentials. Harumafuji has gotten tons of crap(even from me) even though he has 6 titles to Kisenosato's 0 titles. The pressure and expectations are going to be so unreal that Kisen will never live the promotion down if he gets it. Mark my words. Beware of the crap that's gonna be stirred.

I don't think Kisenosato's going to win the tournament anyway. His usual deal with early losses to nobodies will haunt him like it always does.

Just to hammer it home, I hope everyone lays off Harumafuji. He had a decent to good year as a Yokozuna and clearly is worthy of the title.

Edited November 27, 2013 by rzombie1988

[ScreechingOwl 343]

The only good thing about the consecutive yusho criteria for promotion to yokozuna is that it takes away all vestiges of favouritism (read: jingoism) out of the promotion process. I am not a supporter of the rule, however: it is not grounded in sumo history and tradition but instead was a rather knee jerk reaction created to mask embarrassment over a couple of highly questionable promotion and/or non-promotion decisions.

The unintended consequences of the rule have been to make promotion to yokozuna much more difficult than it has historically been. To wit, here's a breakdown of yokozuna created by decade since the inception of the six basho system:

1960s: 4

1970s: 7

1980s: 5

1990s: 5

2000s: 2

The drop has been quite drastic. Part of the reason has been back-to-back dominant yokozuna in Asashoryu and Hakuho. But the 1960s had a dominant yokozuna in Taiho, and the 1980s had one in Chiyonofuji, and both decades saw at least twice as many new yokozuna recognized as the 2000s did.

So it's high time that the YDC get out of the jam it needlessly created. It's too bad it's going to be only on behalf of a native born sekitori, but it's also understandable. The consecutive yusho criteria has already been scraped anyway: Tochiazuma won the yusho in Hatsu 2006 and despite his failure to win the yusho in Haru the YDC announced his yokozuna promotion bid was still viable for Natsu. Had he won Natsu (at least with more than an 11-4 record) he would have been promoted.

Kisenosato has already skirted the traditional "requirement" (never written and not always followed previously) of 33 wins over the previous three basho for promotion to ozeki, having been promoted with "only" 32 wins. I don't think anyone would argue that that promotion hasn't worked out well, or that there would have been a real point in making Kisenosato wait another 9 basho (the time it took him to string together 33 wins over 3 basho) to be elevated to ozeki.

Clearly many Japanese would like there to be a Japanese yokozuna. If having one helps the popularity of sumo everyone associated with sumo -- from the sekitori (including Hakuho and Harumafuji) to the fans -- will benefit. It may not be entirely "fair" but anyone expecting complete "fairness" in sumo is going to be waiting for eternity.

[Tsubame 332]

@rzombie1988:

You cannot determine the rank of a yokozuna only to two consecutive yushos. The "concept" of a yokozuna is much more. And only eight out of 70 (that are 11.3%) yokozunas are promoted due to the 2-yusho-rule.

Edit:

regarding Onokuni: He got a 15-0(Y), a 12-3 (J) and a 13-2(J) and the the promotion and won as yokozuna a second yuhso.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Tsubame

[Asojima 2,844]

There is no 2 yusho rule for promotion. It is only a guideline. In fact, the NSK can promote anyone they damn well please to yokozuna. The YDC is an advisory group that was more or less forced on them by some dumb decisions. They are free to ignore anything the YDC, or anyone else, says.

[Senkoho 552]

the NSK can promote anyone they damn well please to yokozuna.

Go, Akiseyama!

[rzombie1988 157]

The only good thing about the consecutive yusho criteria for promotion to yokozuna is that it takes away all vestiges of favouritism (read: jingoism) out of the promotion process. I am not a supporter of the rule, however: it is not grounded in sumo history and tradition but instead was a rather knee jerk reaction created to mask embarrassment over a couple of highly questionable promotion and/or non-promotion decisions.

The unintended consequences of the rule have been to make promotion to yokozuna much more difficult than it has historically been. To wit, here's a breakdown of yokozuna created by decade since the inception of the six basho system:

1960s: 4

1970s: 7

1980s: 5

1990s: 5

2000s: 2

The drop has been quite drastic. Part of the reason has been back-to-back dominant yokozuna in Asashoryu and Hakuho. But the 1960s had a dominant yokozuna in Taiho, and the 1980s had one in Chiyonofuji, and both decades saw at least twice as many new yokozuna recognized as the 2000s did.

So it's high time that the YDC get out of the jam it needlessly created. It's too bad it's going to be only on behalf of a native born sekitori, but it's also understandable. The consecutive yusho criteria has already been scraped anyway: Tochiazuma won the yusho in Hatsu 2006 and despite his failure to win the yusho in Haru the YDC announced his yokozuna promotion bid was still viable for Natsu. Had he won Natsu (at least with more than an 11-4 record) he would have been promoted.

Kisenosato has already skirted the traditional "requirement" (never written and not always followed previously) of 33 wins over the previous three basho for promotion to ozeki, having been promoted with "only" 32 wins. I don't think anyone would argue that that promotion hasn't worked out well, or that there would have been a real point in making Kisenosato wait another 9 basho (the time it took him to string together 33 wins over 3 basho) to be elevated to ozeki.

Clearly many Japanese would like there to be a Japanese yokozuna. If having one helps the popularity of sumo everyone associated with sumo -- from the sekitori (including Hakuho and Harumafuji) to the fans -- will benefit. It may not be entirely "fair" but anyone expecting complete "fairness" in sumo is going to be waiting for eternity.

Ozeki is a different beast though than Yokozuna. You can be a failed Ozeki and live to see another day. If Kisenosato can't win a tournament, he'll be retiring.

The Japanese want a successful Japanese Yokozuna, not a failed Japanese Yokozuna. The title is meaningless if you can't win. The Sumo Association and Kisenosato will also look awful and get tons of heat if he doesn't win.

I see no problem with the declining amounts of Yokozuna. It's not a game. Sumo is also at the lowest it has been popularity wise for a long time. Less popularity -> Less appicants -> Less cream of the crop applicants -> Less Yokozuna.

In the end, if Kisenosato is worthy of being a Yokozuna, he will show it. All the promotions in the world won't make up for 0 titles.

Edited November 27, 2013 by rzombie1988

[Asashosakari 17,282]

I see no problem with the declining amounts of Yokozuna. It's not a game. Sumo is also at the lowest it has been popularity wise for a long time. Less popularity -> Less appicants -> Less cream of the crop applicants -> Less Yokozuna.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The number of bouts per rikishi (15) and the number of yusho available (1) are constant. No matter what the overall "true" quality of the field is, some guy(s) will stand out and put up yokozuna-like numbers* - if 60 better rikishi get hit by the proverbial bus tomorrow, it could indeed be Akiseyama for all we know. Not immediately, but surely after a bit of time has passed a new pecking order would develop.

* "Normal" yokozuna, that is, not Futabayama/Taiho/Kitanoumi/Chiyonofuji/Takanohana/Asashoryu/Hakuho type of dominance.

[Asashosakari 17,282]

In any case, my impression is that Ozumo currently isn't missing cream-of-the-crop applicants, it's missing the middle-of-the-road types, the ones who are athletic but don't know much of anything about sumo and who could develop into decent rikishi with the right coaching. Roughly speaking, 20 years ago the prospect/project/no-hoper split might have been 10/60/30, today it's more like 20/30/50. (Those numbers aren't to be taken literally, they're just supposed to demonstrate the trend I'm talking about.)

The talents and the no-hopers are still there, it's in between where Ozumo is really hurting these days. Partly due to its own problems, but also because other sports are drawing more and more kids away from sumo.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Asashosakari

[Andreas21 172]

Apparently, the NSK is extremely conservative in the rules and rather bends them than to change them.

This is ridiculous - from my humble perspective. They have the power to change the rules and adapt them to whatever seems to be suitable for the current state of the sport. For any other sport, the rules change constantly - in ski jumping, the suits used last year are now leading to disqualification, they must be tighter now. Sometimes rules change dramatically - such as in soccer, when the scoring points for a win increased from two to three and encouraged a more risky strategy.

So if non-Yokozuna Sumo is an issue, why not make Yokozuna sumo mandatory for everybody. Making certain moves illegal in the same way as hair-pulling leads to a loss.

If Yokozuna promotion rule is too hard with a dominant dai-Yokozuna, why not replace them with something more robust. I would favor a guideline based on the one-year achievement (number of wins). By the way, Kisenosato has just improved to a career high of 68 per year. Interestingly, 68 is exactly the 1-year achievement of Harumafuji when he was promoted to Yokozuna.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Andreas21

[Tsubame 332]

I would favor a guideline based on the one-year achievement (number of wins). By the way, Kisenosato has just improved to a career high of 68 per year. Interestingly, 68 is exactly the 1-year achievement of Harumafuji when he was promoted to Yokozuna.

Interesting thought... 68 wins over six bashos, a query still shows the "Usual Suspects": the yokozunas of the last years plus good and superior ozekis like Baruto, Kaio and now Kisenosato (but not Tochiazuma).

Edited November 27, 2013 by Tsubame

[Harry 67]

I would favor a guideline based on the one-year achievement (number of wins). By the way, Kisenosato has just improved to a career high of 68 per year. Interestingly, 68 is exactly the 1-year achievement of Harumafuji when he was promoted to Yokozuna.

Interesting thought... 68 wins over six bashos, a query still shows the "Usual Suspects": the yokozunas of the last years plus good and superior ozekis like Baruto, Kaio and now Kisenosato (but not Tochiazuma).

Interesting indeed and note that super ozeki Baruto only appears in that query once and Kaio only when spaced apart by several years. Ones which were yokozuna appear in the chart often. If Kisenosato wants to grab the rope he'll need to repeat this level and somehow do what Harumafuji did to grab his rope which is to get rid of the stupid losses due to loss of concentration. Beating both Yokozuna but losing to the admittedly tricky but weak Aminishiki... just a mental lapse and he'll have to tighten up his mental game early on in the tournament to make the final steps.

[Treblemaker 254]

If they insist on a 13+ yusho from Kise, then it would take an injury to one of the Yoks, and an almost picture-perfect basho from Kise. To be honest, he really only shows Yokozuna-like supremacy in maybe 4 bouts. The rest of the time, he can be quite ordinary. What's frustrating is that he has the skill set and track record that would have had him promoted way before he actually was. He was always a threat to Asa, and on any given night take any Ozeki to the cleaners.

So, why hasn't he capitalized on his ability? Just plain silly bouts thrown in between really good wins. Was frankly surprised when he threw Hak from such a position, and demonstrated so much raw power. Where was that stuff the previous 5 bouts?

Kise doesn't have HF's speed and cunning, nor Hak's size and strength. Emotion he's got. Mobility he hasn't.

My bottom line: if the NSK's criteria holds, barring something extraordinary, don't look for a promotion anytime soon.

Unless it's done out of nationalistic motives, sympathy or some other rule-bending move. And, of course, this could happen.

I see Kise as a latter-day Kaio. Almost-there but never-there.