Akinomaki 41,851 Posted September 20, 2013 (edited) There is an interesting Japanese History Mystery channel on YouTube, apparently from a variety series on TV Tokyo in 2009.One video is about the present form of sumo being due to changes started by Oda Nobunaga.----Before him sumo had no dohyo, resulting in long bouts like in Mongolian sumo. He let other rikishi stand in a circle around the combatants, touching them meant a loss. As there were injuries, in the mid of the Edo period the dohyo encircled by tawara (rice bales) was created.Nobunaga introduced gyoji to watch over the bout and clearly recognize the winner, which often had been a reason for debate.To two rikishi, who fought in a bout he especially liked, he gave a reward: the one who had entered the dohyo from the east side he allowed to have a family name: Higashi (east), the other one of course received the name Nishi (west). This is said to be the start of the east-west division in sumo. Edited July 3, 2015 by Akinomaki 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akinomaki 41,851 Posted September 20, 2013 (edited) The other video about sumo contains a real mystery thriller: sumo having its roots in ancient Israel, after its demise in 586 B.C. being brought to Japan via the silk road. Sumo pointing to Jacob, who did sumo with an angel – reminiscent of which is the hitori-zumo custom in Ehime – sumo (ateji) and hakke-yoi having no behind meaning in Japanese but coming from Hebrew SheMO and HaKeH YoHY - salt for purification, the circle (of the dohyo) as a sacred place, etc.That's not my domain, our experts may find some more in it or maybe there are threads on the forum about it already.--- Edited July 3, 2015 by Akinomaki Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kasutera 258 Posted June 30, 2015 The old link isn't working, but I found a new link on Youtube for the above. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 47,347 Posted July 1, 2015 How did I miss this?? Interesting., but very circumstantial at best. And yohi? No such word in Hebrew (closest is yehi which means "let it be"), although Hake does mean "hit him!!" and that is kind of mind boggling. The rest is pretty far-fetched... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kasutera 258 Posted July 1, 2015 How did I miss this?? Interesting., but very circumstantial at best. And yohi? No such word in Hebrew (closest is yehi which means "let it be"), although Hake does mean "hit him!!" and that is kind of mind boggling. The rest is pretty far-fetched... It does seem to be grasping at straws a little bit. I mean, it shouldn't be too surprising to find depictions of wrestlers in loincloths because a loincloth is a very rudimentary form of clothing, and salt kills germs so of COURSE different cultures would use it for purification. If anything, it's a neat example of how geographically isolated cultures can develop similar practices. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kuroyama 715 Posted July 1, 2015 How did I miss this?? Interesting., but very circumstantial at best. And yohi? No such word in Hebrew (closest is yehi which means "let it be"), although Hake does mean "hit him!!" and that is kind of mind boggling. The rest is pretty far-fetched... Among other issues, Japan in 586 BC was at the tail end of the stone age Jomon culture. The Silk Road, to the extent it existed at the time, didn't reach as far as Japan which would have had no products to trade. It would be more than 800 years before Japan started to cultivate silk. We're probably all familiar with the more obvious East Asian parallels to sumo, so the question would be if this style of wrestling came down the Silk Road, why do we not find these phrases of supposedly Hebrew origin in any of them? Why would they be uttered by an official who, as far as this sport is concerned, didn't exist until the 16th century? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asameshimae 220 Posted July 2, 2015 Speaking of the things that were added to sumo above:I have seen some Mongolian wrestling - and I like about everything but how long it takes in many cases. A dohyo of sorts or a time limit would do wonders for my attention span. I think I've only seen a few winning moves, because I invariably can't sustain my attention that long. I suppose long time fans are better at it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kasutera 258 Posted July 2, 2015 If you want to follow the linguist "Altaic" hypothesis that groups Japanese, Korean, and Mongolian in the same language family (although many linguists now dispute it), it would make much more sense that whatever immigration brought Altaic-speaking people to Japan probably brought along whatever common ancestor of bokh and ssireum to create sumo, rather than believing some kind of incredible Semitic trek across the entirety of Asia that would have left only such a subtle influence and not something more obvious like the Jews of Kaifeng in China. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akinomaki 41,851 Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) An article from Newsweek Japan mentions some theories about how sumo entered Japan in the form we know it now: Apparently as a Scythian pastime, by way of the Khitan people in the 10th century. They did it on the plains like still in Mongol-zumo, in Japan it got confined into a small dohyo (but likely much later) and used for Shinto ceremonies (which the form of sumo already there in Japan surely was all along anyway, being there at least since the times of Nomi-no-Sukune, but the article does not try to connect this new form to it). https://www.newsweekjapan.jp/stories/world/2016/02/post-4494.php Definitely the original form does not really resemble sumo like it is now, being something like this: Taima-no-Kehaya was the one defeated and killed by a kick breaking his hipbone after a 7day fight to the death with Nomi-no-Sukune in the first recorded sumo bout, before the Tenno.Edit: The link is now deemed insecure and dangerous by Firefox when I try to open it Edited February 11, 2016 by Akinomaki 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akinomaki 41,851 Posted February 27, 2016 (edited) A sumo shrine for Nomi-no-Sukune - but they don't tell which and where the recent statue depicting an ancient-times rikishi Hakuho and Harumafuji did the traditional dohyo-iri at the Sumiyoshi shrine in Hakata ward, Fukuoka city, 4000 spectators. At the shrine the 2~2.5m high statue of an ancient time rikishi was newly installed.http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2013/11/02/kiji/K20131102006932940.html Edited February 27, 2016 by Akinomaki 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akinomaki 41,851 Posted March 10, 2016 (edited) Takanohana went to the National Diet Library to get rare and precious historical sumo documents that are not in the archives of the sumo kyokai. He wants to learn more about the history of the independent Osaka sumo till the Taisho era, having been Osaka basho responsible in the past.Afterwards he went to the Japan Sports Agency and also had a talk with his ex-pro-wrestler friend, (Ed.Cult.Sp.Sc.Tech.)minister Hase, thanking him for the cooperation to get the documents and asking him to get notified if there is more like this. http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2016/03/10/kiji/K20160310012186000.htmlLeaving the ministryI often search at the National Diet Library online, of course most is still not digitized and on the net:http://dl.ndl.go.jp/search/searchResult?viewRestrictedList=0&searchWord=相撲&featureCode=all&reshowFlg=1&rows=100&sort1=5&sort2=0&__lang=en You can register there from abroad for free as a user, but you don't get more online access to documents with that, only to search the library catalog with the possibility to order pages copied. Edited March 10, 2016 by Akinomaki 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
