Sign in to follow this  
Akinomaki

Yokozuna/Ozeki preperandum - Nagoya 2013

Recommended Posts

Kisenosato started keiko at Naruto-beya on the 1st: "I'm conscious of firmly building a pattern (for the sumo I want to do in Nagoya). Doing so will be leading to self-confidence."

About last basho: "The result of doing sumo with all my energy. Evidently I have the feeling that it's still some way to go. I realized that going towards next basho I have to increase my power much more."

Harumafuji (at Kakizoe's danpatsu-shiki) about the YDC request for 13 wins: "With utmost effort doing my best till the end is the only thing."
About Kise going for yokozuna: "I am only fulfilling my own duty."

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kisenosato started keiko at Naruto-beya on the 1st:

sum13060205340001-p1.jpg

Harumafuji has been a policemen since 2010. He acquired the Mongolian qualification 3 years ago. He's enrolled in the police university to head for a higher grade by correspondence education. On the 11th he plans to go there and publish his graduation thesis: Law differences in Japan and Mongolia. (Hochi).

(Doesn't look like undivided utmost effort for sumo.)

Edited by Akinomaki
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Harumafuji has been a policemen since 2010. He acquired the Mongolian qualification 3 years ago. He's enrolled in the police university to head for a higher grade by correspondence education. On the 11th he plans to go there and publish his graduation thesis: Law differences in Japan and Mongolia.

(Doesn't look like undivided utmost effort for sumo.)

I have never heard this. Fascinating. Do you have any links for this Japanese or English?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kisenosato started keiko at Naruto-beya on the 1st: "I'm conscious of firmly building a pattern (for the sumo I want to do in Nagoya). Doing so will be leading to self-confidence."

About last basho: "The result of doing sumo with all my energy. Evidently I have the feeling that it's still some way to go. I realized that going towards next basho I have to increase my power much more."

3 issues concerning shin-gi-tai 心技体 for him:

1. Overthrowing Hakuho. About his loss on day 14: "In all respects the yokozuna was superior. I have to accept that defeat and confront my feeling about that to become stronger." - for the heart part.

2. Perfecting his pattern of doing sumo - for the technique part. At the Natsu-basho he crouched in a more round fashion at the shikiri, to have the power of the tachi-ai transmitted easier: "That is not yet the proper form." His specialty is hidari-yotsu (left shitate and right uwate) and a left ottsuke.

3. Power-up - for the body part.

G20130602005927480_view.jpg

(Sponichi)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Harumafuji restarting keiko on the 5th: the ususal tachi-ai keiko etc.
G20130606005954670_view.jpg
Kitanoumifuji: 13 wins (like the YDC demands) is like a yusho, 12 wins should be the benchmark.
Giving advice to a youngster:
20130605-712100-1-L.jpg

Edited by Akinomaki
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kisenosato on the 3rd: only weight training. Degeiko is planned.
New subject: The highlight of the Jakarta jungyo: yokozuna Kisenosato ?
20130605-00000007-dal-000-2-view.jpg

Looks like an older picture:
06050653.jpg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kitanofuji: 13 wins is like a yusho, 12 wins should be the benchmark.

I wonder if the "13 wins is like a yusho" comment can be multiplied... Maybe two consecutive 13-2 performances is like two consecutive yusho too... (Being hypocrite...)

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kitanofuji: 13 wins is like a yusho, 12 wins should be the benchmark.

I wonder if the "13 wins is like a yusho" comment can be multiplied... Maybe two consecutive 13-2 performances is like two consecutive yusho too... (Being hypocrite...)

After doing a little research I discovered that Kitanofuji's seemingly silly statement made some sense in a certain context: in the decades of both the 1990s and 2000s each, exactly half the yusho were won with a mark of 13-2 or lower. It's only in the 2010s that 13-2 doesn't seem so impressive, with it winning only 25% of the yusho (including Kyukutenho's 12-3 yusho).

Of course, the real problem isn't discounting a 13-2 yusho but, as Akinomaki correctly suggests, equating a 13-2 non-yusho with a yusho of any sort. You either win the yusho or you don't, and the record is very much secondary. The JSA created a monster with the "two consecutive yusho" criteria (itself imposed to justify its decision to deny Konishiki promotion to yokozuna and to also prevent itself from another unjustified and embarrassing promotion like Futahaguro).

The JSA has previously backed off it's two consecutive yusho criteria -- when it stated that Tochiazuma's bid to become a yokozuna was still alive after he finished 12-3 (!) in Haru in 2006. The best thing for all concerned is to have no talk about any promotions until someone actually wins a yusho -- or at the very least loses one in a playoff at 14-1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kitanofuji: 13 wins (like the YDC demands) is like a yusho, 12 wins should be the benchmark.

Kitanoumi, no?
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Kisenosato gets a 13-2 yusho, a 12-3 third place finish and another 13-2 yusho do you think he becomes a yokozuna with that record over a 3 tournament span?

I think he'll get a nice discount at the local MacDonald's under the bridge.

Edited by Kintamayama
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not the Konishiki myth yet again...

If Kisenosato gets a 13-2 yusho, a 12-3 third place finish and another 13-2 yusho do you think he becomes a yokozuna with that record over a 3 tournament span?
Maybe, and that will have nothing to do with Konishiki but a whole lot with nearly 30 years having passed since Futahaguro.

(One of these days I'm going to ask Exil to add some forum code that simply appends "Disclaimer: Asahifuji was also snubbed with much better numbers 3 years earlier" to any post mentioning both "Konishiki" and "yokozuna". Or even better, a pop-up to the author while the post is being written.)

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for the value of a hypothetical jun-yusho or third-place finish nowadays, I would say that depends a lot on whether Kisenosato (or anybody else in that situation) was still in the yusho race for the final day or not. Whatever one may think about it, they've made it pretty clear that wins collected "when it no longer matters" are basically worthless towards a yokozuna promotion. (Kaio Kyushu 2004, Tochiazuma Haru 2006, Hakuho Nagoya 2006 - none considered for promotion even half-seriously despite good numbers.)

Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about "standard" two-basho runs here. Whether it's worth something as part of a three-basho run in the pre-Futahaguro mold is anybody's guess.

Edited by Asashosakari

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The point of my post was about Kisenosato, and how it was odd that he was even being discussed as a candidate for yokozuna promotion after one 13-2 jun yusho.

It's always been my impression that what counts in sumo is actually winning the yusho, not numbers. I know in baseball no one remembers the team that won the most games during the year, just the team that won the World Series. In this regard, the records in consecutive basho were as follows:

Konishiki: 13-2 yusho 12-3 13-2 yusho

Asahifuji 14-1 yusho 12-3 12-3 j-y

And on a separate occasion:

Asahifuji 14-1 j-y (p) 13-2 j-y 13-2 j-y

Here is the first attempt by Hakuho, another foreign-born rikishi, thrown in for good measure:

Hakuho 13-2 j-y 13-2 j-y 14-1 yusho 13-2 j-y

For what it's worth, I think winning two yusho out of three is more impressive than three consecutive jun-yusho, even with two fewer losses. I also think Asahifuji deserved promotion on the second occasion. But he was never a favorite of the JSA, unlike some (and favoritism in the JSA has been going on for decades, and I did not mean to imply it ONLY worked against foreign-born rikishi) so he had to win two consecutive tournaments to be promoted, which he eventually did.

Lastly, regarding Tochiazuma and Haru 2006, the JSA clearly stated that his yusho promotion candidacy was still alive despite his finishing 12-3 (not a jun-yusho). If Tochiazuma had won the next basho he would have been promoted.

It's just very odd to hear talk of a yokozuna candidacy under the present situation.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's just very odd to hear talk of a yokozuna candidacy under the present situation.

This statement says it all. Their should be no talk of a yokozuna promotion but yet it is being discussed.

... And there's no sense in throwing Kise's name around until he DOES win one.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There have been some Yokozuna promotions after 2 jun-yusho but there are more examples of non-promotions. Here are the queries:

promoted: (most recently Futahaguro and Onokuni in the late 80s, each with only 12-3 in the first of 2 jun-yusho basho)

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&columns=3&n_basho=3&form1_rank=ozeki&form1_jy=on&form2_rank=ozeki&form2_jy=on&form3_rank=yokozuna

not promoted: (13 times since Onokuni - most notably Asahifuji's non-promotion after FIVE consecutive jun-yusho with 12,12,13,14,13 wins!)

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&columns=3&n_basho=3&form1_rank=ozeki&form1_jy=on&form2_rank=ozeki&form2_jy=on&form3_rank=ozeki

Maybe the policy changed after Onokuni and so Kisenosato cannot be promoted with a strong jun-yusho or maybe a decent jun-yusho performance could put Kise-zeki on the list with Futahaguro and Onokuni (as well as Mienoumi and Wakanohana Kanji).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kitanoumifuji: 13 wins (like the YDC demands) is like a yusho, 12 wins should be the benchmark.

Kitanoumi, no?

I was quite in a hurry there and had the fuji from Harumafuji in the back of my head. Thanks for correcting it.

Kise was in his home town Ushiku at a koenkai meeting (about 150 supporters) and pledged his first yusho for next basho. The koenkai president: "Kisenosato-zeki is the bright star of hope for the whole of Japan. We'll support him at an even greater scale."

06061829.jpg

P2013060802968_kise-ns-big.jpg

Visit during keiko by former decathlon athlete, talento Takei.

sp-hirose-0608-13-ns-big.jpg

Keiko on the 7th, moushi-ai with Takayasu, getting covered in mud: "A nice feeling."

preparing the tapings for keiko

sp-f-20130607-kise-ns-big.jpg

Edited by Akinomaki
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There have been some Yokozuna promotions after 2 jun-yusho but there are more examples of non-promotions. Here are the queries:

promoted: (most recently Futahaguro and Onokuni in the late 80s, each with only 12-3 in the first of 2 jun-yusho basho)

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&columns=3&n_basho=3&form1_rank=ozeki&form1_jy=on&form2_rank=ozeki&form2_jy=on&form3_rank=yokozuna

not promoted: (13 times since Onokuni - most notably Asahifuji's non-promotion after FIVE consecutive jun-yusho with 12,12,13,14,13 wins!)

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&columns=3&n_basho=3&form1_rank=ozeki&form1_jy=on&form2_rank=ozeki&form2_jy=on&form3_rank=ozeki

Maybe the policy changed after Onokuni and so Kisenosato cannot be promoted with a strong jun-yusho or maybe a decent jun-yusho performance could put Kise-zeki on the list with Futahaguro and Onokuni (as well as Mienoumi and Wakanohana Kanji).

I think Futahaguro was as much a victim of circumstance as his own misdemeanours. Until recently, the promotion to Ozeki off the back of only two sanyaku scores wouldn't have got him there. He would have got that promotion with the scores that sent him up to Yokozuna, and who knows how much different his career would have been then.

As for Kisenosato, I can understand the need for a Japanese Yokozuna but I think he would be very poor at the rank. That, of course is only my opinion!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Harumafuji on the 7th, starting light keiko with push-ups and shiko, but: the feeling of a cold with slight fever, being to a hospital and getting an infusion.
About the ankles: "I think they are getting better." Returning to Mongolia on the 10th, after that joining the heya training camp in Sakai, Osaka area.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for Kisenosato, I can understand the need for a Japanese Yokozuna but I think he would be very poor at the rank. That, of course is only my opinion!

Until Hakuho retires any/everybody will be poor at that rank. The man is just dominant.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Until Hakuho retires any/everybody will be poor at that rank. The man is just dominant.

^^ What he said.

But, if Kise can fight like he did last tournament on a regular basis, I can see him being an equal to Harumafuji. I never thought Haramafuji had the wherewithal to make a push to yokozuna, but he did it. Kise may surprise us eventually.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd prefer they just stick with the 2 tournament wins in a row rule for Yokozuna. Winning 2 in a row isn't easy but atleast it is some kind of standard. Doesn't matter anyway as if you can't win 2 in a row, there's no reason to think you will suddenly get better by being declared a Yokozuna early. Talent always wins in the end. I don't think we will be seeing any new Yokozuna though until Hakuho goes or starts performing badly. At a minimum, someone would probably need two 13-2 basho's while hoping Hakuho has a worse basho and I don't see any of the current Ozeki being able to do it.

Edited by rzombie1988
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hakuho wants to enter a Mongol sumo tournament after the Nagoya basho, on July the 26th, 27th. In Mongolia during training he was thrown again and again (above and also in the Hakuho rice thread), e. g. by a komusubi equivalent Mongolian wrestler bigger than him .
He should need the approval of the NSK to enter, they can't comment yet because they don't know the character of that tournament, regional of the home prefecture of his father, knockout competition with 256 participants (512 for a national event).
PR chief Hakkaku: "I heard nothing about it yet and can't say anything."
Hakuho's father was a yokozuna equivalent, he himself has some experience as a junior.

Hakuho started earnest keiko in Miyagino-beya on the 10th, first keiko bouts after the Natsu basho, 13-2 against Daikiho, ms Hokaho (16 bouts in other sources). He would welcome Kisenosato coming for degeiko: "Anybody can come. For me it's a plus as well to do sumo with an vigorous ozeki."
After keiko:
G20130611005987430_view.jpg

Last year, May 4th:
06067373.jpg

On the 11th., at the sumo club in Tokyo of the Takushoku univ., where he has a lecture in his own seminar (Hakuho kenkyushitsu, with room and office), subject: "Japan in the world".
06068214.jpg

In the office
view0014692519.jpg

sp-130611-31-ns-big.jpg

06068212.jpg

the Natsu 2007 portrait he donated to the univ.
06068213.jpg

Edited by Akinomaki
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this