Manekineko -

[Mark Buckton 1]

Manekineko-san (and other mods out there)

Whilst I have a lot of respect for the time and effort yourselves and out Rijicho put into maintenance / upkeep on the board - and I think I like many don't even realise what that involves - I have become a little confused recently.

Topics heat up, people fall out, heated exchanges are seen. It is called life. Sadly though - in recent days / hours even you have taken to locking topics 'before' things heat up / get carried away. 3 very recently.

I think this is too much and would say that locking a topic should be in REACTION to a misdemeanor, huge blow-up of a topic or other. Not beforehand.

We have the warn system for members (individually) but locking something 'before' (Censored) anything too major happens makes me at least feel like George Orwell's Big Brother / Sister is constantly watching and deciding when and at what point we will be silenced. (Censored)

In comparison I see no other mod having closed anything for a long long while - but could be mistaken.

Edited May 28, 2004 by Adachinoryu

[Jesinofuji 11]

I noticed that a poll concerning how many wins Asashoryu would put up in Natsu was recently locked after a request by Zentoryu. The concern was that some people had voted in the poll after Natsu basho had ended. I don't think it was such a bad thing to lock this poll, but I think it would be great if the voting could have been locked without locking the thread itself. It would be even better if deadlines could be set for polls so that the voting would be automatically locked at a certain time such as when a basho starts.

[Manekineko 200]

Adachi: I locked Day 2 (or 3?) discussions, because it seemed to lead nowhere. Those discussing more or less decided to leave it at that, and I didn't want to give anyone a chance to re-ignite the dyng embers of that discussion.

Kotonowaka and girls was locked because many members more or less asked for it...

If more of you think I'm overstepping my bounds as mod, I can always resign - I don't do this because it gives me any great kick, but because at one moment this Forum was a breath away from closing, and I didn't want it to happen. I have enough responsibilities outside this Forum to exercise my Big Sisterhood. (Enjoying a beer...)

Jesinofuji - I don't know of a way to lock only voting for a poll, unfortunately. I think it's impossible with current software... Anyway, that is a problem for Rijicho to answer, I personally have *no* idea about the intricacies of board software.

I appreciate your feedback.

[aderechelsea 124]

i say don't close topics that "seem to go bad". PM the members that are misbehaving and settle this off forum.By locking a topic you don't leave other members the chance to say their opinion....

BUT

In the above mentioned cases i think Manakineko-san did well to close the threads.

The poll about Asa's record was clearly not going anywhere.The discussion (if there was anything more to say) could continue as another thread.No need for the poll to stay open and let people vote ...... (Enjoying a beer...)

The Koto thread was dead in my opinion.it was revitalised by a new member who was eager to pitch his post in all the threads he could find......

the reaction to his post was over the top and the thread was going in a "should new members post in old threads and say crap?" direction.This could be discussed (if necessary) in another thread.Good thing this was closed....

Same goes for day 2 and 3 torikumi discussions(or something...i really cannot remeber right now).The posts had gone to another direction (and sometimes a bad one) and had nothing to do with the threads title.Close the topics and let the fighting parts settle their conflicts somewhere else.

That being said i would say that closing the "Henka poll" thread (for instance) because it "could get bad in the furure" would be overstepping....

we had nothing like that so far so we cannnot complain.

closing my post i have to say thanks to the Mods for their work on the forum

(Sign of approval)

[Asashosakari 18,968]

Considering I've been member of forums where "threads that went bad" and "blow-ups" were subject to summary deletion of the offending posts, not just thread closure (and often for the better of it), I find Manekineko to be taking a rather fair and reasonable middle ground here.

I probably wouldn't give that much leeway if I was a moderator here (and I didn't give that much leeway when I was in that position, albeit not on a web forum), which is why I'm appreciative that Manekineko along with the other mods is willing to do this job. :-) After all, I'd have to cut back on my own posting style, too, if the rules were more restrictive. (Enjoying a beer...)

As to insinuations of censorship and Big Brother-ness, I seem to have missed it when this Forum was incorporated as a country with its own government. This is private property; while I appreciate that Rijicho and the moderators allow their moderating guidelines to be discussed, this alone is more than many other places allow for. Everyone's free to make their own forum after all if things are too restrictive for their tastes.

Edited May 29, 2004 by Asashosakari

[Mark Buckton 1]

Interesting posts above and considering I've had my own 'blow-ups' with 2 of the lads above I'd say thank you.

As I said at the start - the people who take care of the forum deserve my / our respect I fely that a couple of threads closed BEFORE things got out of hand was over the top.

Think aderechelsea-san and Jesi-san have gone well on linking this to the age of threads but have to say that Yubi-san and Asa-san - you do seem to show the concept of my original point. I have no ill intention with this comment as I have worked and travelled in both of your nations and the people, the place and the culture are wonderful but I have to say that control from 'above' seems more obvious than in other lands I have visited. In many ways this is good in keeoing the streets and rivers clean and litter free - in other ways?

Yubi-san - ''If anything, some topics SHOULD BE CLOSED EARLIER since in my opinion, ideally no topics should ever blow up" - this is indicative. (capitals ANR's usage to stress the point)

Japanese immigration policy is particularly hard on Chinese as many foreign crims are Chinese. Is this fair? Should prevent the problem arising before it actually does?

[Asashosakari 18,968]

Yubi-san and Asa-san - you do seem to show the concept of my original point.

Edited May 29, 2004 by Asashosakari

[Mark Buckton 1]

For misreading - my apologies. Appreciate the clarification.

ANR

[Exil 301]

...

Thank you for your concern. However...

Sadly though - in recent days / hours even you have taken to locking topics 'before' things heat up / get carried away.  3 very recently.

I counted one thread closed for this reason.

I think this is too much and would say that locking a topic should be in REACTION to a misdemeanor, huge blow-up of a topic or other.  Not beforehand. We have the warn system for members (individually) but locking something 'before'  (Censored)

The locking feature is not for "punishment" purposes, it is most often used when the topic degenerates to a flamefest and/or wanders too far off topic. The warning system is used when a single user is found misbehaving, it is ineffective against larger flamefests and general off-topicness - and it doesn't prevent other users from adding fuel to the fire.

If you like observing flamewars, I suggest reading the comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy newsgroup. :-P

anything too major happens makes me at least feel like George Orwell's Big Brother / Sister is constantly watching and deciding when and at what point we will be silenced. (Censored)

;-) Could you show me the exact point where you saw any evidence of this in, say, the Kotonowaka thread?

It's good that you're concerned about freedom of speech on this forum and in general, but maybe your reaction was a bit... imprudent?

I don't know of a way to lock only voting for a poll, unfortunately. I think it's impossible with current software... Anyway, that is a problem for Rijicho to answer, I personally have *no* idea about the intricacies of board software.

It's not possible to lock voting without locking the thread, despite the obv

[Mark Buckton 1]

(Eh?) Could you show me the exact point where you saw any evidence of this in, say, the Kotonowaka thread?

The new member (amgaa99) - made a post on Kotonowaka and his 'relations' with women. Manekineko responded - no problems evident. The topic continued.

QttP said old posts / should not be resurrected etc (or words to that effect). Asashosakari, Onnagumo, Coo-cook and tominishiki all didn't really seem to like that initial comment having brought the thread back to life.

tominishiki's language a bit strong for a young lad - nothing we don't hear every day though and a PM would suffice in correcting.

In Coo-cook's case and also tominishiki's I saw their posts as critical of the type of post initially made (by amga99).

Nothing was ugly, 2 didn't think it good to resurrect an old post (but Onnagumo's is more likely connected directly to it being a reference to Kotonowaka's (In love...) love life than anything else), 2 were still on topic referring to the post being 'unsavory' shall we say and no flame war was evident - unless you think tominishiki was about to start one!

The new member could have been warned on

a. - don't raise old topics in future

b. - don't refer to the sex life of a sekitori as some may not like that

and, as Manekineko's initial comment was clearly indicative of 'her' not minding such references to Kotonowaka's private life - WHAT POINT WAS THE IN CLOSING IT.

I am no big fan of Kotonowaka as some of the aforementioned female members are but think the 'before it gets ugly' type last post when closed was waaaaaaayyy to premature and quite possibly BECAUSE it was about Kotonowaka - watch this one get me a chewing. Do you seriously think a similar post about Gojoro would have a similar reaction?

That could only have happened with it having been checked / watched as the posts came in - but considering the timidness of the language used again - WHAT POINT?

This is a board frequented by adults not by shy old spinsters who've never spent the same night in a room with a guy and who still think 'damn' in a blasphemy punishable for eternity.

Let the guys lose it once in a while - hell, the thread on the 'supposed' henka of Hakuho involved a few cyber swings - action - none?

Finally, if advising a mod is an apt thing to do - CONSISTENCY is a major factor herein - in any position of authority in general.

Manekineko's response in the Kotonowaka thread kept alove a subject first raised 2 months earlier in late March - presumably because it had continued interest for her.

The Asashoryu poll (also closed by same mod) was terminated less than 3 weeks after it had opened. (admittedly idiots were posting votes when the basho had finished but there isn't a law against being stupid) - because of no interest? I don't know. If, however, age of thread was a factor - perhaps THEN consistency should have been shown in the Kotonowaka thread - despite personal interest in a subject.

Edited May 30, 2004 by Adachinoryu

[Exil 301]

I am no big fan of Kotonowaka as some of the aforementioned female members are but think the 'before it gets ugly' type last post when closed was waaaaaaayyy to premature and quite possibly BECAUSE it was about Kotonowaka - watch this one get me a chewing. Do you seriously think a similar post about Gojoro would have a similar reaction?

That could only have happened with it having been checked / watched as the posts came in - but considering the timidness of the language used again - WHAT POINT?

1) The thread was old and had been resurrected without a point.

2) The last 5 or so posts had nothing to do with the topic of the thread ("Kotonowaka and girls") or the topic of the sub-forum ("Hon-basho talk").

3) The general direction of the thread was not turning back on topic.

4) It wasn't really a discussion anymore (had it been, it could've been moved to Off-topic).

This means the thread was closed due to "general off-topicness" - lack of a better word - and not imflammatory substance. Also, there was nothing in amgaa99's post to justify a warning, so one was not given.

If anyone wants to discuss how, what and where to post (or the weather, cars, women, etc.), they should feel welcome to post a thread in Public Feedback (or Off-topic), but please don't talk about it in Hon-basho talk or in a thread discussing other, unrelated matters.

Thank you.

Edit: and regarding "do you seriously think a similar post about Gojoro would have a similar reaction?" - yes, I do.

Edited May 30, 2004 by Exil

[Mark Buckton 1]

1) The thread was old and had been resurrected without a point.

2) The last 5 or so posts had nothing to do with the topic of the thread ("Kotonowaka and girls") or the topic of the sub-forum ("Hon-basho talk").

3) The general direction of the thread was not turning back on topic.

4) It wasn't really a discussion anymore (had it been, it could've been moved to Off-topic).

This means the thread was closed due to "general off-topicness" - lack of a better word - and not imflammatory substance. Also, there was nothing in amgaa99's post to justify a warning, so one was not given.

Edit: and regarding "do you seriously think a similar post about Gojoro would have a similar reaction?" - yes, I do.

1, Yes - and responded to by Manekineko - who therfore kept it alive till a time of her choosing (In love...) .

2, Coo-cook's and tominishiki's were directly linked in asking for respect for K/waka. (Asa's and Onnagumo's weren't - but knowing the feelings of the latter was motivated surely)

3, see #1 above - it wasn't off topic - was ON side as tominishiki and Coo-cook were saying don't have a go at Kotonowaka for his sex life.

4, Agreed - but closing due to being 'off topic' - lame Exil-san - LAME. Especially when it could have been moved.

Gojoro - how many fans here could even recognise him? Not an insuly but seriously - how many?

And, you didn't refer to my observation on lack of consistency.

EDIT - and this bit - ""weather, cars, women, etc.), they should feel welcome to post a thread in Public Feedback""

why then didn't you tell that to the topic starter when it appeared - our Rijicho! In starting the subject look at the addressees and tell me this was only on sumo. It was to invoke a reaction form the lady members.

Edited May 30, 2004 by Adachinoryu

[Exil 301]

2, Coo-cook's and tominishiki's were directly linked in asking for respect for K/waka.  (Asa's and Onnagumo's weren't - but knowing the feelings of the latter was motivated surely)

Directly linked to amgaa99's post, not Kotonowaka.

4,  Agreed - but closing due to being 'off topic' - lame Exil-san - LAME.  Especially when it could have been moved.

Having a topic loses its point when discussion is off-topic. Have you read the forum rules, by the way?

3. Keep non-sumo related posts on the Off-topic subforum.

And, you didn't refer to my observation on lack of consistency.

It is hardly a case of consistency, when one thread is closed due to being off-topic, one to stop illicit voting and one due to possible flamebait.

I consider your original question (why were three threads closed?) answered.

[Mark Buckton 1]

2, Coo-cook's and tominishiki's were directly linked in asking for respect for K/waka.  (Asa's and Onnagumo's weren't - but knowing the feelings of the latter was motivated surely)

Directly linked to amgaa99's post, not Kotonowaka.

4,  Agreed - but closing due to being 'off topic' - lame Exil-san - LAME.  Especially when it could have been moved.

Having a topic loses its point when discussion is off-topic. Have you read the forum rules, by the way?

3. Keep non-sumo related posts on the Off-topic subforum.

And, you didn't refer to my observation on lack of consistency.

It is hardly a case of consistency, when one thread is closed due to being off-topic, one to stop illicit voting and one due to possible flamebait.

I consider your original question (why were three threads closed?) answered.

You are merely closing ranks Exil.

the 2 posts linking to amgaa99's were on his post which was on K/waka - thus a reaction too was also linked to the topic.

and my apologies for saying this but the forum rules are hardly followed as strictly as you would now have me do by referring to them.

Normative rule #2 - broken by Manekineko in responding to an old thread. Should sehe have known better -? If her co-mod is going to have me refer to such rules perhaps yes.

The rule on gender, racial posts (#2 resulting in immediate loss of membership)

- Lucius Flavonius and his comments on Mongolians - ignored bar for Manekineko's on thread (well timed) comment. LF then responded with another comment 'grounded on fact' mixed in with an apology I saw as derisive to Mongolians - action - NONE - ignored.

Respect for SF rules? Show me the respect and show it with consistency please before referring myself to same said.

Consistency Exil will prevent these problems. In closing topics / in all areas - That is my point.

Your last comment on

a. illicit voting - fair point

b. off topic - very very debateable and dubious at best

c. possibility of flamebait. (sounds like a very watered down version of GWB's we attack and call it self defence by then reducing the chance that we ourselves will be attacked) The SF members are adults - if they want to touch the iron whilst it is hot or even to make it hot - then take action - before is too much and not before the iron is even warm - the line is a fine one and is that upon which your consistency, when established will impress moreso than it ever depresses.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Adachinoryu

[Manekineko 200]

Adachinoryu-san,

you have made several keen observations in this thread, and I thank you for them. I have taken them to heart. I hope I can count on more such helpful and well-worded pointers in the future, as this is my first moderator duty and consequently I may miss what a more observant Forum member will not.

[Ryunokaze 0]

I was coming to the feedback forum to post about this very thing,but I see good old Adachinoryu is way ahead of me.

No offense Manekineko but;"Locked just in case",what is that?

I know we have young members, and delicate flowers and such, but, this level of moderation is way excessive.Maybe, if people are being truly offensive and promoting hatred then fair enough,however, mentioning sex in a most comical sense and the "locked just in case"???

Asashosakari,

You truly do speak some crap.If you ever became a mod here, then this place would turn into Asashosakari's Forum and stop being Sumo Forum.

I know...I am a martyr,right?

Please, bring-on another of your infantile tirades.I am not delicate and will NOT call for the thread to be closed...

Edited June 6, 2004 by Ryunokaze

[Asashosakari 18,968]

Congrats for reviving a thread that was dead for one week just to parrot something that had been said in so many words before (I forget, it's your compulsion to always speak your mind, no matter how inappropriate), and for a gratuitous attack on me? Wow, are you for real?

You truly do speak some crap.If you ever became a mod here, then this place would turn into Asashosakari's Forum and stop being Sumo Forum.

Gee whiz...I'm quite aware of my short-comings and the fact that my attitude to keeping the forum "clean" probably wouldn't be mass-compatible. That's exactly why I refrained from offering my moderating "services" to our former Rijicho when he was looking for people to do it. It's called self-restraint. You should look into the concept.

Thanks though for another demonstration of your tendency to point out the obvious and thinking you've just made some deeply profound finding. A friend of mine on another forum tends to respond with "you should shut up more" in such situations. (He's an Aussie, btw.) Far be it from me to suggest any such thing to you, of course.

Please, bring-on another of your infantile tirades.I am not delicate and will NOT call for the thread to be closed...

No need for the thread to be closed. I don't intend to respond to you again, and everybody else will just deal with you in the appropriate way (i.e. by summarily ignoring you, as they usually do).

[Ryunokaze 0]

Sakari,

Is that it.--That little piss-fart.--It's no wonder that you desire to keep it "clean",because you know, you just couldn't cut it if discussion turned to more serious matters.

Let me point out why your posts above are pure drivel:You say that this place is private property and so anything goes.WRONG! Peoples rights are never negated by ownership and are the premise of the individual and not of a country as a whole.If this place where a country then which one would it be?

Look into what Democracy really means before you post such guff,again.

Your most recent post in relation to me seems to be building "straw men" and Freudian projection for the most part and there really isn't much there.

In relation to this Mod thing--You didn't put your hand up because your delicate,populist character could barely handle the rejection,when it came.

If your Australian friend says things like that , in front of you often,then he is probably trying to give you a hint--Get it!

This "week old post" nonsense,is just that, nonsense.I can understand the etiquette if it was buried three pages back,but it wasn't.It was top page.Even so ,I strongly believe that if a person has an opinion and they wish to air it then pulling up a post from five years ago would be OK.I am sure you choose to have a different view on that.Until it suit you otherwise.

Unfortunately,I see problems like we have on this forum,at times,all over the net.Probably 1 in 10 forums have more than their fair share of fascist like participants.I think it is sad and not in the least profound.--Hang on! My true thoughts do not suit your purpose,do they?

Tis true that I do have a tendency to point out the obvious,though.--Your post here are pure crap(at the risk of repeating myself).

You really think that you are some type of authority,here.In-fact,you are just a regular punter like the rest of us.Except you are more willing to try to bully and belittle others in some crazed hope of elevating your self.

You really think this is some type of popularity contest.Grow up.

Get over yourself...

Edited June 9, 2004 by Ryunokaze

[Ryunokaze 0]

Haven't posts been deleted from this thread?...

Come on...get some BALLS and BRAINS...

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Come on...get some BALLS and BRAINS...

People like you are partly the reason I'm very relieved to leave the Internet sumo community for good. Change of ownership is already on its way and I no longer need to be involved with idiots like you.

When the script gets updated and the ignore function is added to the forum, be prepared to realize a large part of the members of this forum simply don't hear your drivel any more. You will be shouting at empty walls; you and the other idiot who are the only ones who ever got people to write to me in anger and annoyment when I still was the administrator asking me to take some drastic measures against your childish behaviour and cybermartyrism.

The quality of this forum is at an all-time low. It was to be expected. Once those who are interested in sumo in earnest run out, the idiots crawl from their caves. This is how it always has been, this is how it always will be. I regret for being too lenient and trusting adult people learning eventually to behave. Well, I was wrong. You're still an idiot and so is the other one. Moreover, you're growing some disciples...

I don't mean to sound as if I were criticizing the current rijicho and the moderators. I don't envy them. They do what they think is best for the forum and who am I of all the people to instruct them. However, if I were to get a second chance, I would use administrative rights far, far more than I did. I was a wussy.

But all this is quite trivial by now. Go ahead, idiot, establish a sumo forum of your own and spread there your gospel about how things are and should be in sumo and whatnot. Create your own little world where you can rule and feel omnipotent. I'm soon free of your poison.