Greatest Ozeki?

[Jaak 7]

Let´s list the ozeki who have had at least 3 career yusho - who ought to have been promoted to yokozuna but for various reasons were not. Someone in this list is the greatest ozeki - and it is pretty obvious who.

1) Shakagatake - 3 yusho, ozeki 1770-1774 (before yokozuna was invented)

2) Raiden - 28 yusho from 1790 to 1810, and that was 2 yusho period. It would be equivalent to 84 yusho in 6 yusho period, and Hakuho has some way to go. He still might. Hakuho is still 28. At that age (1795), Raiden had collected 4 yusho while Hakuho is at 24 already. Between spring 1795 and autumn 1810, of the 30 basho, Raiden missed 6 and failed to win 2 basho. He retired in 1810, age 43, on a string of 9 consecutive yusho. So, Hakuho merely needs to win 60 yusho of the 90 basho of the next 15 years, and that would match Raiden.

No rikishi ever came close. The second, a yokozuna, was Tanikaze with 21 career yusho of 2 per year.

3) Tamagaki. 4 yusho between 1812 and 1820, none consecutive. He may not count as ozeki, because he was appointed yokozuna - but refused the licence

4) Kashiwado. 16 yusho between 1812 and 1822. 4 consecutive yusho on three separate occasions. Like Tamagaki, appointed a yokozuna but refused licence. If counted as an ozeki, clearly the second best - 16 yusho of 2 is behind the 21 of yokozuna Tanikaze but ahead of the 12 of yokozuna Futabayama

5) Tsurugizan. 6 yusho between 1836 and 1842, including 2 consecutive on 2 separate occasions. Appointed a yokozuna but refused the licence.

6) Koyanagi. 5 yusho, ozeki 1852-1856

7) Odate. 4 yusho, ozeki 1886-1895

8) Miyagino. 3 yusho, ozeki 1897-1903

9) Araiwa Kamenosuke. 6 yusho between 1897 and 1905

10) Shimizugawa Motokichi. 2 yusho in 1932 (a 4 basho year) and a third in 1934 (2 basho year) - equivalent to 6 yusho in 6 basho times

11) Konishiki. 3 yusho 1989-1992

Note the long gap between 1934 and 1989. Over those 55 years, most of which were 6 basho time, every single ozeki who collected 3 career yusho got tsuna - and several who did not also got tsuna.

12) Chiyotaikai. 3 yusho 1999-2003

13) Kaio. 5 yusho 2000-2004

14) Tochiazuma. 3 yusho 2002-2006

So, that should be the complete list.

Now the question - if you exclude Kashiwado on grounds that he was at least appointed a yokozuna (this also excludes Tsurugizan and Tamagaki) - who do you think was the second best ozeki ever?

Koyanagi? Araiwa? Kaio?

Edited May 17, 2013 by Jaak

[Maguroyama 27]

I can't find any of Raiden's sumo bouts on youtube, but

seems to be from his venture into MMA and looks quite OKish.

Seriously though, alltime greatest wankfests are most often pointless.

Yeah, but a lot of fun!

In the modern era, this one's easy for me: Kaio. Five yusho and the longevity records say it all. After Kaio, I would go with Chiyotaikai, Konishiki, Wakashimazu, Tochiazuma and Takanohana I.

[Tsubame 356]

One thing came into my mind, when I though about great ozekis: Do you think, you only can speak from a great ozeki, when this ozeki won at least one yusho (as ozeki)?

[aderechelsea 124]

well ... Kotooshu has won a yusho as an Ozeki and he henka-ed Tochiozan today ... i doubt that many people consider him among the "greatest Ozeki" :-P

[Tsubame 356]

Who will remember that single won in a couple of years? Did non of the whole other ozeki never henka? Hardly to believe...

[aderechelsea 124]

i am joking of course ... about the henka. No one remembers or cares about stuff like that.

Kotooshu's shortcomings have nothing to do with today's horrible display of Ozeki sumo.

[Jaak 7]

at least one yusho (as ozeki)?

What do you think are the most respectable, yusho-equivalent non-yusho performances?

[dingo 1,159]

I think the answer to that is pretty obvious -- a jun-yusho, preferably one where the yusho was decided in a playoff.

[Jaak 7]

There have been 331 yushos since 1958 - one each basho - and just 74 yusho-dotens.

Would it be fair to accept all yusho-dotens as equivalent to yusho?

[Ashikawazu 43]

For me this is all very subjective. As Yokozuna promotion criteria has changed over time, (and still isn't written in stone anywhere), comparing Ozeki throughout the ages cannot really be done in my opinion, as the rank basically means different things at different times.

There were quite a few Yokozuna promotions that should have never been, and vice versa some that should have been but weren't.

Another factor is that the competition now is completely different from 200 years ago.

e.g. Raiden has been mentioned a few times already; Legend has it that Raiden was about the size of Baruto. His contemporaries weren't even close to his size and weight. However, in the past 20-30 years there have been several more or less his size, and definitely a smaller gap between his size, and the average rikishi.

If he had been transported to the future and was active now, does anybody really think he would have a 96.6 winning percentage?? Me thinks not... Competition pushes human athleticism to increase, and there being less competition back then hard to say how hard Raiden was actually pushed.

Also, technically Raiden was an Ozeki, but this was at a time where Yokozuna title was an honorary title rather than a recognized rank. It has been mentioned that a Yokozuna 'license' was given by ruling families at the time, and it didn't even appear on the banzuke for those who had it, (they were listed as Ozeki). So really, Raiden reached sumo's highest rank, and if this discussion is aimed at the best rikishi reaching only sumo's second highest rank, then he should be disqualified from the discussion.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Ashikawazu