Andonishiki 168 Posted May 15, 2013 hmm. Ganzohnesushi clearly has a point here. As said above, I really appreciate all these comments & suggestions, as they are the best way to improve the game. The old version was certainly good, but there was criticism, that a Yusho counts too much, therefore a lot of players had identical or nearly identical teams and more than 80% had Hakuho on slot #1 in their line up over the last few years. This time, only two players had identical teams and 24 of 42 players had Hakuho on slot #1 (57.14%) I will try to implement some changes, so next basho the rules will certainly be slightly different than this time. To clarify Doitsuyama's question, each Ginboshi counts 8 points, therefore 8 extra points have been added for those, choosing Myogiryu. Nothing will be added to him after day 15 in terms of Ginboshi. Please be aware, that this is a test run; a draft version of reviving the game. Thank you Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nomadwolf 8 Posted May 15, 2013 Yeah, the yusho counts for way too much in SCS... same in Fantasy Sumo IMHO. Also, I think the special prizes counted for too little... they should also be multiplied by the rikishi point level, or the # of points should be much higher. @ nomadwolfYes, the minimum of five rikishi in one team is a new rule, which -so far- I received mostly positive feedback on.hope, you find new space on your sumogame prep spreadsheet (fantastic idea, by the way) to add salary cup in July. Yeah, I'm spreadsheet man. For each basho, I have no less than 7 spreadsheets used for making picks & calculating scores. (3 are used only for calculating scores (SCS, & bench, and overall score-keeping), while the rest are also for making picks. SCS scoring sheet was only made because official site would only update scores 2 or 3 times per basho. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ganzohnesushi 507 Posted May 15, 2013 If the only critcism raised by a few players was that a Yusho was counting too much, why then not simply reduce the bonus points for Yusho/Jun-Yusho slightly and leave the rest of the rules as they were? Too many changes in rules and regulations will spoil the original idea of this game. Take Odd Sumo as a positive example. When Golynohana revived this game he did not change any of the rules. All he did was working on a formula to calculate the odds. Ganzohnesushi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,173 Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) I agree with Ganzohnesushi, the point structure of the old game (maybe) wasn't ideal - but the new structure is downright silly. I missed it because the points table in the initial table certainly makes it look like all points are multiplied with the selected rank of the rikishi just like in the old game (especially as the point values make little sense otherwise). A big fat warning MUST be here that only the wins are multiplied with the rank. Examples are to illustrate the rules, not to make them. My selection quite likely would have been different knowing the real rules, and I guess other players feel the same. Well, with the late announcement and those incomplete (at best) rules I'd suggest it is best to consider this as a test basho, and wait until next basho before the scores are used for banzuke etc. Edited May 15, 2013 by Doitsuyama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pandaazuma 1,310 Posted May 15, 2013 My 2 yen... I'm very grateful to Andonishiki-zeki for reviving the game, but I agree with Doitsuyama...I'd have made completely different picks if I'd realised the special prizes etc. were not so valuable. It's my fault, of course, for not looking too closely at the stated rule changes, but I suspect quite a few gamers did the same. Perhaps, as Doitsuyama suggests, this could be a test run...a chance to tweak out the unpopular rules and make it an even better, more challenging game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,173 Posted May 15, 2013 It's my fault, of course, for not looking too closely at the stated rule changes, . I don't even think it's your fault because the "rules" don't indicate this, in my opinion implicating that all points get multiplied with the rikishi rank. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,786 Posted May 15, 2013 A radical solution would be to have no yokozuna among the selectable rikishi... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aderechelsea 124 Posted May 15, 2013 A radical solution would be to have no yokozuna among the selectable rikishi... i am up for that (and not because i didn't pick one this time around) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ganzohnesushi 507 Posted May 15, 2013 A radical solution would be to have no yokozuna among the selectable rikishi... Nooooo.... You guys are killing a brilliant game... Adjust the point structure slightly, but leave the game as it is, for heavens's sake. And think in longer terms. Perhaps Hakuho currently is all the way dominating but I remember the times when there were Asashoryu and Hakuho. Due to high value of both Rikishi it was rather impossible to select both of them. At least it would not have made sense in the one or the other basho to select both of them. And keep in mind that the scenario might change fast when Hakuho is over the peak. Will you change rules again then? Ganzohnesushi . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,786 Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) And think in longer terms. Perhaps Hakuho currently is all the way dominating but I remember the times when there were Asashoryu and Hakuho. Due to high value of both Rikishi it was rather impossible to select both of them. At least it would not have made sense in the one or the other basho to select both of them.And it didn't make the game particularly more interesting, either, at least in my opinion: With one dominant rikishi the decision is "do I pick him or not?" (with the alternative being a long ballot), with two dominant rikishi it's just "do I pick the one guy or the other?" because entering a long ballot makes almost no sense in that scenario since it's so unlikely that both will fail to win the yusho. Either way it's just a binary choice and getting it wrong usually doomed you to a terrible score. And the yokozuna invariably goes into the first slot so there's no strategy involved there, either. As far as I'm concerned that was always the worst part of SCS, the interesting stuff was what happened below the 10x slot - hence my suggestion that maybe the game would prove more interesting without yokozuna altogether. Anyway, I'm actually not sure there is a sweet spot for the value of the yusho and jun-yusho bonuses, because it's so dependent both on luck (number of jun-yusho rikishi) and on how well all the other rikishi are actually utilized - if the Kyokai hands out four sansho but they all go to rikishi that almost nobody selected (due to being overpriced or because they weren't expected to do well), the yusho rikishi will still dominate the game even if the actual yusho bonus is significantly reduced. Keep in mind that selecting the yusho winner not only results in getting the yusho bonus but also the 39+ regular points for his wins. That's always going to be hard to compensate for with lesser rikishi picks. Will you change rules again then?Why not? As far as I'm concerned, the purpose of game rules is to create an interesting game environment, not to establish a rigid tradition. If circumstances beyond a game administrator's control change, so should the rules of the game. Anything else means putting the focus on the wrong thing and treating the game itself as more important than what players are getting out of it. It's still just a game, not a religion. Edited May 15, 2013 by Asashosakari Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vikanohara 171 Posted May 16, 2013 I'm with Ganzohnesushi, actually. Just leave it as it was, but adjust the scoring slightly so a yusho is less important towards your final score. There are several games already in which you can't pick Yokozuna or even Sanyaku rikishi, but in a game that works with prices for rikishi, they need to be all in imo. And it's up to the gamers to decide whether they are worth that price or not. Anno 2013, Hakuho clearly has the best yusho chance, but he doens't win all the time. It's also easier to anticipate once a basho is already 4 days further than before the start. From what I read here, it seems the game needed you to pick the future yusho winner to stand a chance. In fact, I have almost never had the yusho winner in my lineup and I haven't been doing so badly in this game. Though the few times I did pick the eventual yusho winner in my lineup, I ended 1st, 2nd & 21st in my division. My best results have been when I having picked the yusho winner indeed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,173 Posted May 16, 2013 (edited) I would continue to allow yokozuna, but put a "yokozuna premium" on the price, like 25% added cost. That would be covered by the revised rules actually since there's deliberately nothing said about the cost algorithm (or lack thereof...). Edited May 16, 2013 by Doitsuyama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torideyama 30 Posted May 16, 2013 I am looking for the basho score updates. Have you posted any yet? Thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Achiyama 1,223 Posted May 16, 2013 (edited) I am looking for the basho score updates. Have you posted any yet? Thanks. The standings after Day 3 are posted on the previous page (#1). As Andonishiki said there, the next posting will be after Day 6. Edited May 16, 2013 by Achiyama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andonishiki 168 Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) Results after day 6: Achiyama jumps from #3 to the top spot. His team consists of seven rikishi in the following order: Kisenosato, Goeido, Ikioi, Gagamaru, Kaisei, Chiyotairyu, Masunoyama. X-tra points awarded so far: Myogiryu 16 pts for beating one Yokozuna and two Ozeki & Aminishiki 4 pts for beating one Ozeki. Plenty of days left, next update on day 9 might already include some x-tra points for kk. Stay tuned ! Rank Shikona points 1 Achiyama 219 2 Andonishiki 213 3 Vikanohara 203 4 Kotononami 199 5 Mmikasazuma 198 6 ScreechingOwl 197 7 GONZABUROW 196 8 Tikozan 180 9 Bunijiman 179 10 Gaijingai 177 11 chishafuwaku 176 12 Gibuten 176 13 Konosato 175 14 Sebunshu 174 15 Kaiowaka 173 16 mischashimaru 173 17 Jejima 172 18 Fuseigou 171 19 Holleshoryu 166 20 kuroimori 165 21 Doitsuyama 163 22 Zenjimoto 161 23 Tosahayate 161 24 Frinkanohana 160 25 Ruziklao 159 26 Pandaazuma 159 27 Torafuji 158 28 Kitakachiyama 158 29 Neko 155 30 Flohru 153 31 Shiyonofuji 147 32 Kaiomitsuki 145 33 Mariohana 144 34 Randomitsuki 144 35 Marushiki 143 36 Gawasukotto 140 37 Aoyume 134 38 Fuheika 132 39 aderechelseamaru 132 40 Ganzohnesushi 127 41 kamogawa 127 42 Yoohoo 127 Edited May 17, 2013 by Andonishiki Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andonishiki 168 Posted May 21, 2013 (edited) Results after day 10 kamogama sends his apologies, it was his turn to post day 9 results, but he had technical problems. Achiyama still in the lead, but closely followed by Mmikaazuma and Screeching Owl. Yusho, Jun-Yusho and Special price points can still change a whole lot Rank Shikona points 1 Achiyama 981 2 Mmikasazuma 959 3 ScreechingOwl 951 4 Andonishiki 893 5 aderechelseamaru 891 6 Gibuten 885 7 Gaijingai 879 8 Flohru 846 9 Kotononami 845 10 Jejima 834 11 Fuseigou 831 12 Doitsuyama 825 13 Vikanohara 818 14 Kaiowaka 816 15 Konosato 812 16 Torafuji 800 17 Holleshoryu 788 18 Tikozan 786 19 kamogawa 777 20 chishafuwaku 776 21 GONZABUROW 770 22 Bunijiman 768 23 Kitakachiyama 765 24 kuroimori 752 25 Mariohana 741 26 mischashimaru 740 27 Sebunshu 735 28 Aoyume 729 29 Ganzohnesushi 722 30 Shiyonofuji 714 31 Tosahayate 713 32 Zenjimoto 711 33 Frinkanohana 708 34 Ruziklao 696 35 Pandaazuma 696 36 Neko 692 37 Yoohoo 690 38 Kaiomitsuki 678 39 Fuheika 666 40 Randomitsuki 666 41 Marushiki 663 42 Gawasukotto 597 Edited May 21, 2013 by Andonishiki Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,173 Posted May 21, 2013 Yusho, Jun-Yusho and Special price points can still change a whole lot Please do us a favour for discussion purposes and post the day 15 standings in two parts, before and after prize points. So we can see if the point values are reasonably affecting game strategy or if they are ultimately garbage points. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andonishiki 168 Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) after day 13 - done in a bit of a hurry, will do again after day 14 kachikoshi points not included yet. As requested by Doitsuyama, we will also show a final ranking with the former multiplier rules. Rank Shikona points 1 Achiyama 1299 2 Kotononami 1256 3 ScreechingOwl 1224 4 Mmikasazuma 1217 5 aderechelseamaru 1212 6 Andonishiki 1133 7 Gibuten 1119 8 Jejima 1095 9 Flohru 1086 10 Doitsuyama 1074 11 kamogawa 1059 12 chishafuwaku 1037 13 Fuseigou 1035 14 Gaijingai 1017 15 Bunijiman 1011 16 Holleshoryu 1004 17 Kitakachiyama 999 18 Konosato 998 19 Tikozan 996 20 Kaiowaka 993 21 kuroimori 989 22Vikanohara 986 23 GONZABUROW 974 24 Mariohana 969 25 Sebunshu 963 26 mischashimaru 956 27 Ganzohnesushi 953 28 Torafuji 932 29 Marushiki 909 30 Ruziklao 906 31 Pandaazuma 906 32 Aoyume 906 33 Frinkanohana 906 34 Zenjimoto 900 35 Yoohoo 885 36 Tosahayate 884 37 Kaiomitsuki 861 38 Neko 857 39 Shiyonofuji 852 40 Randomitsuki 840 41 Gawasukotto 795 42 Fuheika 786 Edited May 24, 2013 by Andonishiki Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aderechelsea 124 Posted May 24, 2013 suddenly i wish i never picked Kisenosato as my #1 guy .... did i jinx it and now i have to pay for it by actually watching him get the yusho? (Spooky TV program...) Holy Hakuho must deliver tomorrow .... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tikozan 4 Posted May 28, 2013 Where are the final standings? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ganzohnesushi 507 Posted May 28, 2013 Where are the final standings? You have to show some patience... I assume Andonishiki is so shocked that Bayern Munich has won the Champions League that he needs a few more days to recover :-P Ganzohnesushi 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tikozan 4 Posted May 30, 2013 Where are the final standings? You have to show some patience... I assume Andonishiki is so shocked that Bayern Munich has won the Champions League that he needs a few more days to recover :-P Ganzohnesushi You're right. I guess, this was a great shock (Laughing...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
