Pandaazuma

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Part of the odd substitute rules for Hoshitori comes in because of the points for KK.  Paper Oyakata doesn't have those.  In Hoshitori, you can have the main rikishi and their sub combine for a KK, so the way the rules and coding handle the substitute has to reflect this.  The substitute has to move into the slot of the withdrawn rikishi or you wouldn't be able to do this.  There has to be a trigger that swaps the sub in for the withdrawn rikishi, which is why they don't seem to sub for rikishi that have been withdrawn when the originally replaced rikishi comes back.  Since they have to be on the bench to swap with someone, they can't swap from subbing for a lower value rikishi for a higher value one that withdraws.  If they could, then you'd have to swap back in the rikishi that was originally at the lower ranked position or there would be a lookup error of some sort when trying to calculate the score.

Could it always check each day which rikishi it is best to substitute for?  Perhaps; I doubt the extra processor cycles would really affect anything these days.  The question mainly is if it's easy to code based on how it already works and the requirements of the game.  Even if it's easy to change, someone with access and knowledge has to do it, and that person certainly isn't me.

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21 hours ago, Gurowake said:

Part of the odd substitute rules for Hoshitori comes in because of the points for KK.  Paper Oyakata doesn't have those.  In Hoshitori, you can have the main rikishi and their sub combine for a KK, so the way the rules and coding handle the substitute has to reflect this.  The substitute has to move into the slot of the withdrawn rikishi or you wouldn't be able to do this.  There has to be a trigger that swaps the sub in for the withdrawn rikishi, which is why they don't seem to sub for rikishi that have been withdrawn when the originally replaced rikishi comes back.  Since they have to be on the bench to swap with someone, they can't swap from subbing for a lower value rikishi for a higher value one that withdraws.  If they could, then you'd have to swap back in the rikishi that was originally at the lower ranked position or there would be a lookup error of some sort when trying to calculate the score.

Could it always check each day which rikishi it is best to substitute for?  Perhaps; I doubt the extra processor cycles would really affect anything these days.  The question mainly is if it's easy to code based on how it already works and the requirements of the game.  Even if it's easy to change, someone with access and knowledge has to do it, and that person certainly isn't me.

I figured it would happen like this but when I thought about it does it really work that way? Does it really put the sub into the slot? How would it know to do this? Is the program aware of kyujo declarations? Is this something that is done manually which is why it usually needs a kick start and all the in and outs this basho the reason we didn't have results till late in the basho and why subs didn't get used again after the second riksihi, ichinojo, returned? I always assumed the Yusho and Sansho were done manually which would explain why someone with a sub with a sansho had it added to their score despite that sub not actually "active" on Day 15 according to Hoshitori. I haven't even checked but do players usually get the 10  points for a Sansho win by their sub if that sub didn't get used during the basho?  

As to the actually programming to get the scoring to automatically use the sub for the highest placed rikishi who was absent that day instead of having it put the sub in and out of a slot wouldn't it be easier to just check against the score in the database? The program goes down the list for the player and the first sot that received a score of 0-0-1 for the day gets whatever result the sub received for that slot, then stops resorting to checking the sub against any other 0-0-1 scores for that day for that player. in other words the sub is never actually slotted in, just referred to.  This would result in a score for the slot being shown, not the actually score for the rikishi listed in that slot. Wins would still go up and might eliminate the whole  -10 for MK of kyjo rikishi which needs to be cleared and then a +10 added  on the sub line when the combined score results in  a KK.

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8 minutes ago, Rocks said:

Is the program aware of kyujo declarations?

"Rikishi is not listed in the current day's results" is pretty easy to check.
 

8 minutes ago, Rocks said:

I always assumed the Yusho and Sansho were done manually (...)

They're added manually on the main DB site, AFAIK they're then automatically recognized by the Hoshitori scoring (though possibly requiring a rescore for Day 15 to be triggered manually).
 

8 minutes ago, Rocks said:

which would explain why someone with a sub with a sansho had it added to their score despite that sub not actually "active" on Day 15 according to Hoshitori. I haven't even checked but do players usually get the 10  points for a Sansho win by their sub if that sub didn't get used during the basho? 

Doitsuyama confirmed a few years ago that the substitute rikishi is always eligible for the sansho bonus. (Found the post, it's here.)

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1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

"Rikishi is not listed in the current day's results" is pretty easy to check.
 

I figured it would be but  it didn't catch Takakeisho or Kaisei out for Days 13-15 when Ichinojo returned and reassign the sub. But maybe that is just the rule which is what we are wondering.

Thanks for the other answers and the link. Greatly appreciated.

 

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In this case we can't even do it manually as we are not certain what the exact rules are, and @Doitsuyama may not even be aware of the problem as we know he is busy, so I will tag him here and hopefully he can fix it with the push of a magic button when he gets the time.

 

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I guess this may never be fixed as it is not exactly on anyone's priority list, especially if it takes some effort. I will attempt a manual calculation on Tuesday or Wednesday for Masters purposes under the assumption that the sub covers the highest absentee at all times.

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2 hours ago, Pandaazuma said:

I guess this may never be fixed as it is not exactly on anyone's priority list, especially if it takes some effort. I will attempt a manual calculation on Tuesday or Wednesday for Masters purposes under the assumption that the sub covers the highest absentee at all times.

That would likely mean that it's been wrong in the past.  I say that the rules are whatever are programmed into the automation, much like Hearthstone, where there are some glaring inconsistencies, but what the computer says happens is what happens.  We then figure out what those rules are and make sure the text of the rules follow them.  Otherwise, you'll be left doing this every single basho.

Or just get someone with time, talent, and access to fix it so it makes sense.  But that's probably not going to happen.

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14 hours ago, Pandaazuma said:

I guess this may never be fixed as it is not exactly on anyone's priority list, especially if it takes some effort. I will attempt a manual calculation on Tuesday or Wednesday for Masters purposes under the assumption that the sub covers the highest absentee at all times.

I would say that you are going to have to go quite far down the list to insure all those who could have inched their way into the Top 10 are covered. Also, After examining the rules and some precedent I would say  the sub covers the highest absentee at all times is not supportable. That is of course assuming earlier examples are precedent and actually mean something. At the same time I'm not sure we can just say Trust the Results as @Gurowake suggests and if this continues in the future  there may need to be some recurring manual calculation under certain circumstances. 

This is going to get quite verbose and I apologize for that. This is not meant to suggest I know what is best either. merely stating things as a I read them and to see if that interpretation makes any sense.  If old hats with lots of experience in this sort of thing, like @Asashosakari , please feel free to state what I got wrong or is just plain dumb based on earlier rulings from @Doitsuyama

That said, the Rules for Hoshitori:

3) SUBSTITUTES The substiute covers the event of one rikishi leaving the basho. The sub will assume the same point level for all torikumi on days when the injured/sick rikishi is not called by the yobidashi. The injured rikishi IS responsible for his loss by fusenpai (forfeit), though, and the sub cannot replace him on that day. If more than one rikishi pulls out, the substitute will count only for the first to exit. If a rikishi goes out and then returns, the sub's performance will still count for the days after fusenpai and up until the return of the main rikishi.

A strict interpretation of the first line who be that a sub can be used for one, and ONLY one, rikishi to leave. If that rikishi returns the sub can be used for him again only if the rikishi leaves again. In other words, once used the sub is "burnt". He can not be used to sub for other rikishi. It's clear that precedent does not support this.  Besides the numerous examples this basho it happened in January too, and probably many other basho.  Example http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Hoshi/HoshPlayerBasho.aspx?p=797&b=201901 

So despite saying "one rikishi" the rules do not IMO mean "one only" but rather "one at a time".  If this is correct then a sub can be used for multiple rikishi. The issue this basho is why the sub was not reused on Day 12 when Ichinojo returned. Needless to say it is a little harder to find precedent for the types of comings and goings this basho and someone having them in their lineup.  To me though it is not logical to say the sub can only be used twice as the scoring stands this basho. 

The question becomes who the sub goes in for on a given day with multiple absences. The rules make this clear in saying "the substitute will count only for the first to exit." This kills the idea of the highest listed rikishi being subbed for among multiple absent rikishi. Instead we must determine who was the first to exit and having established that the sub remains subbing for that rikishi "up and until the return of the main rikishi." Where this rikishi being subbed for is listed has no bearing on that as my lineup from January makes clear: http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Hoshi/HoshPlayerBasho.aspx?p=864&b=201901  My sub did not move to Kakuryu after going in for Tochinoshin the day before.  The sub stays with whoever he subbed for and does not become available to sub for others unless the rikishi he is subbing for returns.  If that rikishi does return the sub can now be used again for other absent rikishi based solely upon which of those absent rikishi exited first. 

Which brings us to this basho and people having 2 or 3 of the absent/returning rikishi in their lineup.  As the scoring stands it seems correct up until Day 11.  Everyone who had Takakeisho in their lineup had the sub used for Days 6 and 7. Having returned their sub was available to be used on Day 9 for either Ichinojo or Kaisei.  In the case of having both ichinojo was subbed for as his name , being the highest ranked, was listed first on the official notice of absence making him the first to leave.  Since the sub stays with who they have been assigned to if you only had Kaisei then the sub went in for him and stayed till the end of the basho. In the case of Ichinojo when he returned the sub would now be available for whichever rikishi exited first. In the case of those that had Takakeisho and Kaisei the sub should be used for Kaisei from Day 12 onward as Kaisei at this point was the first to exit on Day 9. Takakeisho,  having returned,  last exit was Day 10 after Kaisei on Day 9. If you had Ichinoho and he returned and you had only Takakeisho in your lineup the sub's score should be used for Days 12-15 for his slot. if you had Takekesiho and Kaisei or just Kaisei  then the sub is used for Kaisei. 

Finally, we come to Yusho points and subs. In the case of Sansho it's easy to award that as it is a set 10 points.  The Yusho isn't so easy.

d. If the yusho winner is in your list, he will get three extra wins for bagging the Emperor's Cup. Thus if his normal point score is 8, he would get an extra 24 points for the yusho, on top of the regular points he got for his bouts.

To me this makes clear that the Yusho points awarded is based on the slot the rikishi fills.  Since the sub occupies slot 0 he must be subbing for someone to receive  any points as 3 times 0 is 0. Since the Yusho is awarded on day 15 then your sub must be subbing for someone on Day 15. If not, then you get 0. This is why this basho  with Aasnaoyama as a sub got no Yusho points, so far, as the scoring stands as it does not show him active on Day 15.   This to me makes sense. If you had Kakuryu as your sub for Hakuho, who pulls out on Day 1, then even if Kakuryu goes 15-0 if Hakuho was to return for some odd reason  Day 15 you would receive no Yusho points.  In the case of this basho though it is clear to me at least that subs should have been active Days 12-15 for Takakeisho and Kaisei. 

 

Anyway I hope this actully made sense to anyone and I didn't sound like Onomatsu .

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As an aside, my strong  preference for the sub rule if it were ever to be changed it would say. 

"The sub will assume the same point level any given torikumi day for the highest listed rikishi in your lineup who is not called by the yobidashi on that day."

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Well without any updates or explanations from the game owner, we can't proceed, so I suggest that @Randomitsuki just discount this game for the moment until it is updated correctly. And if it isn't, which seems likely, it should be written off for this basho.

 

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2 hours ago, Pandaazuma said:

Well without any updates or explanations from the game owner, we can't proceed, so I suggest that @Randomitsuki just discount this game for the moment until it is updated correctly. And if it isn't, which seems likely, it should be written off for this basho.

 

What's so different about this basho?  I don't think there's any difference in what's it's doing than what it had been doing.  It's always been very dodgy when it came to there being multiple kyujos.

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1 hour ago, Gurowake said:

What's so different about this basho?  I don't think there's any difference in what's it's doing than what it had been doing.  It's always been very dodgy when it came to there being multiple kyujos.

Perhaps. But this time we have reason to believe, given the complex kyujo situation that unfolded, that a manual update might be necessary. In fact we know that because Asanoyama as a sub has not been given his yusho points.

Regardless, there is only one person who can resolve this. And I will leave it up to Rando to decide what to do about it in the short and long-term. He is Mr Common Sense. ;)

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Posted (edited)

FWIW here's my experience datapoints for the collection. I've had a few times where A withdrew, sub replaced him, A came back, sub went out of play, B withdrew, sub replaced him. Once or twice A came back after B withdrew and sub moved from A to B. I've also had a sub (in play or not) yusho or sansho and did receive full points for sub (3 extra wins for a yusho). I did ask about that because sub wasn't in my lineup and was told he got points because he was on my team. One thing I don't recall was how much manual manipulation this required, if any.

Edited by Fukurou

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3 hours ago, Fukurou said:

FWIW here's my experience datapoints for the collection. I've had a few times where A withdrew, sub replaced him, A came back, sub went out of play, B withdrew, sub replaced him. Once or twice A came back after B withdrew and sub moved from A to B. I've also had a sub (in play or not) yusho or sansho and did receive full points for sub (3 extra wins for a yusho). I did ask about that because sub wasn't in my lineup and was told he got points because he was on my team. One thing I don't recall was how much manual manipulation this required, if any.

How  were the points determined for the sub for yusho if they weren't active? 

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22 hours ago, Pandaazuma said:

Regardless, there is only one person who can resolve this. And I will leave it up to Rando to decide what to do about it in the short and long-term. He is Mr Common Sense. ;)

Common sense suggests that we leave it as it is (I don't think that Doitsuyama will be bothered to manually edit lots of data). Declaring the game null and void for Natsu Basho seems too harsh to me. I think we should just regard it as a botched gyoji/shimpan call and take the published results as fact. It will not be the first time in sumo gaming history that results did not perfectly align with reality, and it probably won't be the last time.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Rocks said:

How  were the points determined for the sub for yusho if they weren't active? 

I was lucky - the sub was in the active line-up at the time so got points for that spot (I don't remember where he was, but say if he was in the 7 point spot then I got 21 bonus points). I had asked the question about getting those points because he wasn't in the lineup I'd originally selected.

Sansho are easy - if the sub is active or not, add 10 points if he wins a sansho.  Yusho are complicated - if the sub is active, give him triple the points for the position he's in. If he's not active, what does he get? Some nominal amount has to be determined, but how many? 1 point because he's not in use?

Clarification of original language - "my lineup" is what I submitted to start the basho with, my 13-1 picks, not including the sub. "My team" is "my lineup" plus the sub.

Edited by Fukurou

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I could not enter Toto as of now. Will try again later, but...just in case...

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Toto is now working. Thanks.

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404 for the banzuke at sumodb

If that keeps up all day and night, I'll have to withdraw from everything.

(Which is what I get for waiting until the last day)

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82 players on the Bingo participant list but only 79 in the standings. Fujiyama is one of them on the former but not the latter.

@Susanoo Could you tell the game administrator, please? 

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All the Bingo scores today are zero @Susanoo 

Can you tell the game owner? Thanks. 

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Just now, wolfgangho said:

SG all bouts 0-0 winner descided by randaom drawing :-.)

 

I have told the guy.

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