Kyushu Basho 2012 Discussion Thread

[Treblemaker 254]

Initially, I disliked the henka, mostly because it's a cheap win, and bordered on cheating. After a while, I came to realize that a henka is as much tactical move as anything else, and frankly, a good juicy one is a work of art, slight-of-hand and deception. Admit it: the one thrown with absolute precision by the Kak was probably one of the best you've seen in recent times. The fact that Geeku fell for it so badly reflects on his own one-dimensional sumo. And the fact that he never keeps his head up. The adage, "Keep 'em guessing" applies here. Geeku has to accept half the blame for not seeing it coming not being prepared for anything this or any opponent might have up his sleeve.

I wasn't happy to see this particular bout go that way, and I said so. But having said that, I happily accept it as part of the package, and status and ranking, kadoban or otherwise aside, a good henka is what it is: a great move with very effective outcomes. Woe to those who don't see it coming, or can't alter their sumo to adapt when it does.

[Kintamayama 44,854]

I think Kakuryu was ordered to henka. With such a high profile move any notions about top level sharades will be suffocated. Again. For a while.

Sumotalk-itis at its best.. Watch out for the guy in shades in the van parked outside...

[kuroimori 1,634]

I think Kakuryu was ordered to henka. With such a high profile move any notions about top level sharades will be suffocated. Again. For a while.

Sumotalk-itis at its best.. Watch out for the guy in shades in the van parked outside...

... who ordered the Kak to apologize for his henka by not giving any opposition to Ozan today. (Detective...)

Not that the bout looked suspisious but somehow I had this funny feeling that Kak would not win today.

[Washuyama 639]

Imagine if Hakuho's 63 bout winning streak were ended by a henka.

Actually, I expected it to end that way.... from the likes of Aminishiki or Tokitenku.

Imagine if Hakuho's tsuna run had gotten started with a henka...

http://www.youtube.com/embed/_Md5dWxV0iU?autoplay=1

It kinda did... Yusho playoff for Hakuho's 1st of his two consecutive yusho needed for promotion.

[shumitto 418]

Imagine if Hakuho's 63 bout winning streak were ended by a henka.

Actually, I expected it to end that way.... from the likes of Aminishiki or Tokitenku.

Imagine if Hakuho's tsuna run had gotten started with a henka...

http://www.youtube.c...V0iU?autoplay=1

It kinda did... Yusho playoff for Hakuho's 1st of his two consecutive yusho needed for promotion.

It was an irony. Everyone knows it all started with a henka.

After years having to put up with Kakuryu's sumo I was starting to like it, but now this. Shame on him, completely ill-timed and out of place his henka.

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

I am probably one of the world's biggest haters of the henka - I call them all sorts of names when they do it. However, I now judge rikishi on their overall careers rather than the odd henka. Kakuryu doesn't henka often enough to make me dislike him, and he more than makes up for the odd lapse with some breathtaking technique when he is on form. That utchari he did a few years ago is one of the most perfectly executed things I've ever seen. Anyway, I'm glad I judge rikishi in the long-term because that means I can learn to love rikishi like Aminishiki, one of the most talented Japanese rikishi of his generation - a truly brilliant wrestler when he wants/wanted to be. Without the injuries who knows how far he could have gone. So he henkas occasionally - I just think, 'Oh, you muppet!' and move on.

However, the lads who do it all the time drive me mad. Takekaze, Takanoyama, Kimurayama, Aran until recently. Roho and Hakurozan, Wakanoho...etc. No time for them at all. I actually agree with Moti - I reckon some of these lads do it on instinct sometimes - just react to what they think will win the bout. How the hell are we supposed to know what goes through a rikishi's brain in the split seconds of the tachiai?

Edited November 18, 2012 by Pandaazuma

[Washuyama 639]

It was an irony. Everyone knows it all started with a henka.

I kinda figured you knew but posted it in case you were serious...

[kuroimori 1,634]

It was an irony. Everyone knows it all started with a henka.

I kinda figured you knew but posted it in case you were serious...

You kinda got henka-posted :-)

[Afrozuna 8]

Imagine if Hakuho's 63 bout winning streak were ended by a henka. I think most people would have felt cheated. The same feeling prevails if a yusho is decided by a henka. If something important is on the line it shouldn't be decided by a henka.

But according to you and your friends you would not have a problem with that since a Yokozuna is supposed to be expecting a henka especially from one of the few low rankers he faces. Regardless of rank we just can not have double standards. Henka sucks. Periiod. It's not a skill (certainly not one that requires training). Can you imagine the rikishis practicing henkas :)

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

I sometimes wonder if the inashi out there get labeled henka. Probably more often than not on here. The tachiai that get labeled henka on here seem to outnumber those that get called henka by Japanese announcers.

http://www.banzuke.com/00-1/msg00448.html

The only thing I'd add to that is I feel that inashi sometimes go forward and at an angle, not only backward, to try and take a better line of attack.

[Fay 1,677]

Imagine if Hakuho's 63 bout winning streak were ended by a henka. I think most people would have felt cheated. The same feeling prevails if a yusho is decided by a henka. If something important is on the line it shouldn't be decided by a henka.

But according to you and your friends you would not have a problem with that since a Yokozuna is supposed to be expecting a henka especially from one of the few low rankers he faces. Regardless of rank we just can not have double standards. Henka sucks. Periiod. It's not a skill (certainly not one that requires training). Can you imagine the rikishis practicing henkas :)

Funny enough a year or two ago I went to Sadogatake beya watching morning training and saw Kotoshogiku practicing henka the whole morning. It worked out in his bout in the afternoon.

[Afrozuna 8]

Despicable

[Afrozuna 8]

Very funny actually, did he have rikishi charge at him while he jumped out of the way. Seem silly if you already know its gonna be a henka. He couldn't possibly be practising ALONE could he because that would have been a sight to see.

[botev1921 33]

Culture...you can't beat it. If Hakuho's winning streak was ended by a henka, I would have blamed Hakuho for not being good enough to anticipate it and punish it - after all a great champion must be prepared for anything.

[Asashosakari 19,110]

I sometimes wonder if the inashi out there get labeled henka. Probably more often than not on here.

Yes, that mistake used to be epidemic around here a while ago, then it tapered off. Guess it's back with the recent influx of new members.

[Asashosakari 19,110]

Regardless of rank we just can not have double standards.

As somebody wrote in response to a similar opinion earlier, are you sure you're watching the right sport? Complaining about standards differing by rank in Ozumo is much like complaining that only the goalie is allowed to handle the ball in football.

[Afrozuna 8]

As somebody wrote in response to a similar opinion earlier, are you sure you're watching the right sport? Complaining about standards differing by rank in Ozumo is much like complaining that only the goalie is allowed to handle the ball in football.

The use of the term double standards was the wrong one here, the term should have been "random discretion" because you seem to be happy with henka when it suits certain random conditions which are subjective. What you might see as an occassion where henka is inappropriate someone else will see as appropriate for the exact same reason

For Example:

Sumofan A: Henka was inappropriate because Yokozuna was on a winning streak

Sumofan B: Henka was very appropriate because Yokozuna was on a winning and that was the only way Rikishi x could have beaten

[shumitto 418]

However, the lads who do it all the time drive me mad. Takekaze, Takanoyama, Kimurayama, Aran until recently.

I disagree about Kimurayama though. It is more like inashi what he does, and Takekaze and Takanoyama vary between the two. Aran was the one who was either going straight on or totally stepping to the left IIRC.

[Asashosakari 19,110]

As somebody wrote in response to a similar opinion earlier, are you sure you're watching the right sport? Complaining about standards differing by rank in Ozumo is much like complaining that only the goalie is allowed to handle the ball in football.

The use of the term double standards was the wrong one here, the term should have been "random discretion" because you seem to be happy with henka when it suits certain random conditions which are subjective. What you might see as an occassion where henka is inappropriate someone else will see as appropriate for the exact same reason

Well, I don't have a problem with that. If somebody gets a kick out of Aran henka'ing everyone in sight, who am I to tell them they're wrong? Likewise, I don't object to people who hate henka simply because they don't want to see them. I only have a problem with people misrepresenting facts - either, as Otokonoyama pointed out, calling something henka that generally isn't considered one, or falsely attributing something to henka as a technique which isn't supported by the history of Ozumo. (Or making outlandish claims about Ozumo as a whole, etc..) As long as the facts are correct, everybody's welcome to interpret any or all henka in whichever way they fancy, as far as I'm concerned.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Asashosakari

[Treblemaker 254]

In American football, the defensive linemen can usually tell when the offensive linemen are going to pass-block (when they move backwards) and when there's a handoff called (when they would be charging straight ahead). The defensive line watches the body language and whether the knuckles of the offensive linemen are white because they're leaning on them (meaning a straight-forward charge). When the offensive linemen tend to sit back slightly and put less pressure on their knuckles, it's a good bet that they'll be back-pedalling in pass-block mode.

I'm just surprised that most rikishi haven't realized that no matter how well the henka-ist disguises it, he's still going to telegraph a henka because of the way he lines up at the tachi-ai. We are too far away to tell (especially on TV or video) but there absolutely has to be a clue as to what's coming. Charging straight ahead means a more forward-leaning stance, and perhaps more pressure on the toes and the one down fist. Moving suddenly to the left or right requires different muscles, and less pressure on the one fist that is down. Again, we are too far away to tell, but I'm very sure that the rikishi can tell, if they look close enough, or are aware that the guy in front of them has a history of pulling thing kind of thing.

Now, there are lots of rikishi who would never pull a henka (Miyabiyama, for example) and those who are agile and athletic enough (HF, Kak, etc). I'm wondering how many guys use videos to help them get an edge on their opponents. If I were in a bout scheduled to meet, say, Yoshikaze, the next day, I'd be watching videos of his tachi-ai for at least an hour, knowing exactly how he sets up and what follows. I'd be prepared.

And again I say: The victim of the hanka, has to take part of the blame for simply not being aware and taking steps not to be fooled by someone who has a history of being the occasional Matador.

[Afrozuna 8]

Yes, that mistake used to be epidemic around here a while ago, then it tapered off. Guess it's back with the recent influx of new members.

New names does not always equal new members. I'm a case in point and I've been here for years now and changed my name 3 times

Edited November 18, 2012 by Afrozuna

[kuroimori 1,634]

I sometimes wonder if the inashi out there get labeled henka. Probably more often than not on here.

Yes, that mistake used to be epidemic around here a while ago, then it tapered off. Guess it's back with the recent influx of new members.

It's all about ranks... ;-)

[Bugman 384]

but there absolutely has to be a clue as to what's coming. Charging straight ahead means a more forward-leaning stance, and perhaps more pressure on the toes and the one down fist. Moving suddenly to the left or right requires different muscles, and less pressure on the one fist that is down. Again, we are too far away to tell, but I'm very sure that the rikishi can tell, if they look close enough, or are aware that the guy in front of them has a history of pulling thing kind of thing.

Sounds like you have to be a Sherlock Homasho-lmes to get ahead in Sumo! (please forgive me, i couldn't help myself)

[Akinomaki 40,230]

Now, there are lots of rikishi who would never pull a henka (Miyabiyama, for example) and those who are agile and athletic enough (HF, Kak, etc).

My dislike for Miyabiyama partly comes from the many boring henka he used to pull off. I always liked the bout therefore when he fell for a henka himself. His henka rather are of the chumon-zumo variety, avoiding impact and instantly slapping down - there is no need to move a lot to the side for that kind of henka, if you choose to call it one.

I have to admit, I only hate a henka against any of my favourite rikishi, otherwise I find it mostly amusing. If it is a kou-torikumi of special interest like the Kakuryu bout though, I at the same time feel robbed.

[Treblemaker 254]

Had a chance to catch the action live the last couple of days... and is it just me or has Takamisakari's twitching and scratching gotten worse in the last while? I don't see him that much (only when I tune in the stream and catch the Juryu action), but he wasn't that bad a year ago. It almost borders of autistic or Turrettes-like symptoms, not that I'm suggesting that he is either one. But, wow.

Does anyone here know this guy well enough to explain what's going on?