Should Hakuho Retire?

[Masumasumasu 902]

Clearly it is time for the Yokozuna to step down if he's going to do nothing but attempt to knock his opponents out with vicious elbow strikes. Such desperation reminds me of a sickly, wounded animal.

[Doitsuyama 1,173]

No.

[Masumasumasu 902]

Hakuho cannot win anymore without brutal elbow strikes and henkas. He is obviously trying to injure his opponents. What a disgrace.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Masumasumasu

[Igordemorais 75]

[Skotkotaikai 2]

No!

[Kaioshoryu 62]

Can't anything be done about this unnecessary trolling?

[Masumasumasu 902]

Can't anything be done about this unnecessary trolling?

You mean, "can't people with whom I disagree be blacklisted?"

If you don't like my posts, ignore them.

[Kaioshoryu 62]

So you seriously mean that Hakuho should retire after doing normal sumo the last three days? What he is doing is perfectly legal and all part of sumo. Anyways, I thought it was the lack of concern for Myogiryu you had a problem with, not the content of his sumo?

[salle 11]

Clearly it is time for the Yokozuna to step down if he's going to do nothing but attempt to knock his opponents out with vicious elbow strikes. Such desperation reminds me of a sickly, wounded animal.

You must be kidding! Sumo is violent martial art. Such "knock outs" are not only perfectly legal as long as no fist is involved, but also very common. It is very common that these massive athletes clash head to head at tachi ai not only during basho, but also during daily training routines. Plenty of them have head and neck injuries including dislocated and broken vertebrae. It is part of their live! Your rants about Hakuho are as ridiculous as if you claim professional boxer must retire because he aims to knock out his opponent in a legal fight without breaking any rules.

[Bugman 384]

Clearly it is time for the Yokozuna to step down if he's going to do nothing but attempt to knock his opponents out with vicious elbow strikes. Such desperation reminds me of a sickly, wounded animal.

You must be kidding! Sumo is violent martial art. Such "knock outs" are not only perfectly legal as long as no fist is involved, but also very common. It is very common that these massive athletes clash head to head at tachi ai not only during basho, but also during daily training routines. Plenty of them have head and neck injuries including dislocated and broken vertebrae. It is part of their live! Your rants about Hakuho are as ridiculous as if you claim professional boxer must retire because he aims to knock out his opponent in a legal fight without breaking any rules.

To be fair Sumo isn't really like other contact sports though is it? It's a tradition and a ritual too, i personally do not remember this level of violence in Sumo, it might be a case of me being "observationally challenged" but i don't remember so many harite with apparently nasty intent, or as many KO's as in this basho, today Aoiyama looked like he ko'd Homasho, if it had been like this when i started watching perhaps i would have just gone to watch UFC, except i have no interest in watching people getting knocked out.

Some people have an extra expectation of grace when thinking about Sumo, it's not all about physical prowess or stats for everyone, just a personal opinion of course, and no i don't think Hak should retire, i just won't cheer him on anymore if he continues this style, personally i think Harumafuji's "upping the ante" with brute force especially in the previous basho has elicited this response from the Yokozuna.

[salle 11]

Some people have an extra expectation of grace when thinking about Sumo ...

Do you see the controversy here? If taking care to avoid injuries for your opponent is main concern then the infamous henka becomes very good technique because it lessens the risk of injuries a lot compared to straight ahead tachi-ai. Then why henka it is considered "bad" and straight clash is "good"?

That clash at the start of each and every bout is seriously underestimated. No matter if it is chest-to-chest, head-to-chest, head-to-head or hand-to-head/chest/whatever it is always very brutal and violent. Those are not 50-80kg fighters. They are 120-190 kg heavy bodies launching them at amazingly high speed at the tachi-ai. Tell me at least one other martial art where nearly all bouts begin with such violent clash?

Now about the other underestimation. Due to their dignity the rikishi don't speak much and don't demonstrate how much they were knocked down or out during bouts. They walk away on their own feet unless it is really bad injury. Most bouts in sumo end so quickly that we have no time to see if someone feels dizzy or is completely disoriented after that initial clash at tachi-ai. We can only guess how often some rikishi is in condition which would be good enough for recording it as Knock Out in other martial arts. Note that nowadays definition of Knock Out in most sport is far away from "lying unconscious on the ground" and bouts are stopped much earlier to avoid nasty brain damages. In sumo there's natural protection as you lose the bout quickly enough to prevent such danger.

[Washuyama 638]

If taking care to avoid injuries for your opponent is main concern...

It isn't. Winning is the main concern.

[salle 11]

Let's take Harumafuji during current Aki basho as an example. Watch all his bouts during current basho and count how many times he manages to hit with his head the face or chin of his opponent at the tachiai. In most martial art such head strikes are prohibited! Isn't it dangerous? Isn't it intended to hurt and even broke nose, chin or teeth of his opponents? (There are not mouth guards in sumo as far as I know) Isn't there high risk of brain or neck injury with such head strikes? Yet they are perfectly legal in sumo so yes it "isn't really like other contact sports", but it is definitely not more mild or something. Even more - such head-first tachi-ai is considered something to be respected.

[Bugman 384]

Well you make good points Salle, i have probably not given enough credit to the toughness of Sumo, but not everyone goes head-first at tachi-ai, many put arms out first to lessen the impact, others do a kind of hug, one called Mainoumi even used to stand up like a rabbit remember that? Takanoyama one of the most exciting rikishi almost never meets a tachi-ai, It's the more violent rikishi that do the intentional headbutts and stuff and yeah, i don't like them, i think it's a valid opinion to hold, i'm just a fan after all and admittedly a very poorly-knowledged one, might make me in a minority but that's life i guess.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Bugman

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

(Laughing...)

[Vikanohara 171]

today Aoiyama looked like he ko'd Homasho, if it had been like this when i started watching perhaps i would have just gone to watch UFC, except i have no interest in watching people getting knocked out.

I was about to bring up the same. It gets more attention when being the Yokozuna, that's perfectly normal I suppose. But if you look further, the more brutal finishes happen several times a day.

[Fukurou 534]

today Aoiyama looked like he ko'd Homasho, if it had been like this when i started watching perhaps i would have just gone to watch UFC, except i have no interest in watching people getting knocked out.

I was about to bring up the same. It gets more attention when being the Yokozuna, that's perfectly normal I suppose. But if you look further, the more brutal finishes happen several times a day.

It gets more attention when a rikishi (especially a yokozuna) who hasn't used such tactics very often before starts doing them often. I almost wonder if he wants to get things over quickly to try to cover up an injury, but I haven't heard or seen anything that makes me think he's injured.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Fukurou

[Vikanohara 171]

It might be just a new force of habit he has been developing.

[Afrozuna 8]

I think it lacks hinkaku for Hakuho if he is doing deliberately, its just not Yokozuna-like. Just like Asashoryu's ketaguri, it leaves a very bad taste. Of corse the fact that he seemed so pleased with himself afterwards is just shameful.

[Masumasumasu 902]

Anyways, I thought it was the lack of concern for Myogiryu you had a problem with, not the content of his sumo?

That was before I realized that Hakuho is intentionally trying to knock his opponents out.

Clearly it is time for the Yokozuna to step down if he's going to do nothing but attempt to knock his opponents out with vicious elbow strikes. Such desperation reminds me of a sickly, wounded animal.

You must be kidding! Sumo is violent martial art. Such "knock outs" are not only perfectly legal as long as no fist is involved, but also very common. It is very common that these massive athletes clash head to head at tachi ai not only during basho, but also during daily training routines. Plenty of them have head and neck injuries including dislocated and broken vertebrae. It is part of their live! Your rants about Hakuho are as ridiculous as if you claim professional boxer must retire because he aims to knock out his opponent in a legal fight without breaking any rules.

The goal of boxing is to knock your opponent out. Sumo is not boxing.

I disagree that knockouts are common in sumo, and I seriously doubt that intentional knock-outs are 'kosher'.

What happened to the grace and dignity of sumo? Lately, the basho have been looking more and more like cage matches.

Sumo is changing, and not for the better.

Clearly it is time for the Yokozuna to step down if he's going to do nothing but attempt to knock his opponents out with vicious elbow strikes. Such desperation reminds me of a sickly, wounded animal.

You must be kidding! Sumo is violent martial art. Such "knock outs" are not only perfectly legal as long as no fist is involved, but also very common. It is very common that these massive athletes clash head to head at tachi ai not only during basho, but also during daily training routines. Plenty of them have head and neck injuries including dislocated and broken vertebrae. It is part of their live! Your rants about Hakuho are as ridiculous as if you claim professional boxer must retire because he aims to knock out his opponent in a legal fight without breaking any rules.

To be fair Sumo isn't really like other contact sports though is it? It's a tradition and a ritual too, i personally do not remember this level of violence in Sumo, it might be a case of me being "observationally challenged" but i don't remember so many harite with apparently nasty intent, or as many KO's as in this basho, today Aoiyama looked like he ko'd Homasho, if it had been like this when i started watching perhaps i would have just gone to watch UFC, except i have no interest in watching people getting knocked out.

Some people have an extra expectation of grace when thinking about Sumo, it's not all about physical prowess or stats for everyone, just a personal opinion of course, and no i don't think Hak should retire, i just won't cheer him on anymore if he continues this style, personally i think Harumafuji's "upping the ante" with brute force especially in the previous basho has elicited this response from the Yokozuna.

Yes, bravo!

If taking care to avoid injuries for your opponent is main concern...

It isn't. Winning is the main concern.

I'm talking about the INTENT to injure.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Manekineko

[Gusoyama 98]

Personally, I wonder if Hakuho is taking the "black hat" role that Asashoryu held for so long when they were both at the top rank. He may be doing it this basho to show Harumafuji(and the fans) that he's still top dog. Of course, that would most effectively be shown by beating Harumafuji convincingly on day 15.

As for the knockout, Miyogi simply got hit "on the button", as they say. Hakuho could have just as easily done that with his shoulder in a completely normal tachi-ai. Having been "knocked out" like that myself with a legal hit in hockey, its just something that happens when you get hit in a very specific way, usually directly on the chin. I haven't seen anything wrong with what Hakuho's been doing lately, other than it possibly becoming a predictable bad habit.

[Kintamayama 44,639]

The local press didn't even complain about it. It's treated like a regular kachi-age that happened to knock the opponent out (BTW, in almost all cases, it's a harite closely followed by the elbow-check it out..). When a Yokozuna is seen to be acting "untowardly" the papers and the Kyokai bosses react immediately and loudly, reprimanding and whispering.

Move along folks-there is nothing to see here, except maybe a more- pumped- up -than- usual Yokozuna who hasn't been doing too well lately and is seeing yet another yusho slip between his fingers.

And some fans here who don't like Hakuhou and finally have their chance to find a chink in his otherwise shining armor, so to speak.

It will be interesting to see how "brutal" tomorrow's senshuraku bout will be.

[Igordemorais 75]

The way they've been fighting, Hakuho and Harumafuji might kill each other tomorrow.

[Skotkotaikai 2]

I'm talking about the INTENT to injure.

You should become a fantasy writer. Don't waste your talent in the forums, please.

[Bugman 384]

The local press didn't even complain about it. It's treated like a regular kachi-age that happened to knock the opponent out (BTW, in almost all cases, it's a harite closely followed by the elbow-check it out..). When a Yokozuna is seen to be acting "untowardly" the papers and the Kyokai bosses react immediately and loudly, reprimanding and whispering.

Move along folks-there is nothing to see here, except maybe a more- pumped- up -than- usual Yokozuna who hasn't been doing too well lately and is seeing yet another yusho slip between his fingers.

And some fans here who don't like Hakuhou and finally have their chance to find a chink in his otherwise shining armor, so to speak.

It will be interesting to see how "brutal" tomorrow's senshuraku bout will be.

I like Hak a lot, i've just never seen him use this style before and i missed the Asashoryu era, i think you are thoroughly correct in your post though, as for tomorrow if both Hak and Haru go at each other with the same intensity they have shown so far it will be a clash of the titans :)

Edited September 22, 2012 by Bugman