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Igordemorais

Aki Basho 2012 Discussion Thread

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Naturally, I didn't like the "epic" bout, but I don't want to spoil everyone's party, especially since I think Ama deserves it.

I guess you are saying that the outcome was predefined then?

I am saying that it was an almost unnaturally captivating bout to watch, swhatimsain.

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And you can't attribute that to two technical phenoms facing each other off in a highly emotionally charged moment in the crux of one of their careers?

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Old habits die hard. Leave the man alone-he is still at stage 7 of the 12 stages..

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I was in the arena today. I showed up at 6:30am in order to get in line for a ticket, and was there from the start to the end. Amazing day of bouts.

Care to share? The crowd seemed to be really into things all day. Was it a full house?

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I have to say I'm waiting to see what conspiracy the tinfoil hat brigade over at ST will assign Harumafuji's yusho to...

I've got news for you- quietly, a few of their best have settled here and have been more than welcomed.

Thank you Moti, much appreciated!

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I've heard Arashio-beya's Daishorin, who was absent this basho, has retired due to a neck injury. He was quite a late starter, already 22 when he entered ozumo, and never made it beyond Jonidan.

Meanwhile, two Kyokai personnel retirements as well. Senior tokoyama Tokoichi of Isenoumi-beya celebrated his 65th birthday in mid-August which is the mandatory retirement age. And I've also heard that Takasago-beya's Jonokuchi yobidashi Kento has left as well, that's unconfirmed at the moment though.

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Anyways, I'll quit complaining. The basho was exciting, the sumo good, the henkas were few, the emotion was real.. What more could a sumo fan ask for?

Biru. Lots and lots of biru.

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Meanwhile, two Kyokai personnel retirements as well. Senior tokoyama Tokoichi of Isenoumi-beya celebrated his 65th birthday in mid-August which is the mandatory retirement age. And I've also heard that Takasago-beya's Jonokuchi yobidashi Kento has left as well, that's unconfirmed at the moment though.

This is sort of off topic, but I started to wonder do they get retirement money or pensions from the Kyokai? I remember once reading that their salary is not much to speak of, so was wondering what they do in their old age.

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I've heard Arashio-beya's Daishorin, who was absent this basho, has retired due to a neck injury. He was quite a late starter, already 22 when he entered ozumo, and never made it beyond Jonidan.

One of my favourite shikona, for being an aesthetically-pleasing alternative reading for what's essentially just "Ookobayashi", his real name with the 大 kanji tacked on.

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What a great basho, what a great last day.

HF-Hak bout was strange though. When Hak could absorb the first initiative of HF (which is his best weapon) and the action stalled he should not have lost: he's heavier, stronger, and better at the belt. But it is hard to tell, HF seems to be improved in many areas of his sumo.

The loss of Myogiryu hurt his Ozeki run a lot. As he will not win the Yokuzunas and likely lose to Kise and Bart there is almost no room for losses like that. 10 is just enough but 11 would be a good starting position when the injured Ozeki return. He will have to put up some notches to really do it.

The special prices puzzled me a lot, except the one for Mogiryu which is well-deserved (despite the two bad losses). Tochiozan got his just for the Kinboshi, apart from that it was mediocre, also his sumo was not so spectacular. Even the Kinboshi was more cheap trick than an outstanding technique. So I think, not so well-deserved.

They should have given one to Homasho for three Ozeki wins. He beat the Ozeki which are ranked O1e and O1w next basho!

The should also have considered Okinoumi, 11 wins, and I liked the way he was fighting which was IMO much better than his previous two double-digits performances.

Edited by Andreas21

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Myogiryu 4 out of 6 technique prizes. Definitely Yokozuna material. He has the star power in him. Some guys you know they are talented journeymen but journeymen nonetheless. Others feel like diamonds in the rough, their potential shines through from miles away. Myogiryu is one such case.

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I think Myogiryu showed that, while he is the best prospect in Makuuchi atm, he has a little bit more to go to take the next step. Due to the circumstances of this particular basho, he was looking good for even 12 wins by day 10, before falling to Tochinoshin.

In any case, maybe its best for him if he stabilizes himself in the rank of Sekiwake, and proves that he can put a KK performance basho in and basho out.

If he can do that, the Ozeki run will come on its own eventually.

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I was in the arena today. I showed up at 6:30am in order to get in line for a ticket, and was there from the start to the end. Amazing day of bouts.

Care to share? The crowd seemed to be really into things all day. Was it a full house?

Yeah, the crowd was great. It was certainly a sellout, but there were some empty seats--not that many. I'm guessing some of the tickets held by agencies, etc. either weren't sold or were unused (for instance if they were comp tickets, etc.). The first floor looked to be full, it was just some of the tickets in the middle sections of the 2nd floor. Being that I bought a general admission ticket on the morning of, I was in the very last row, which is where the livliest bunch are seated.

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Not trying to troll....

But can anyone explain why Hakuho decided to go 'hoppity-hop' at the end of the bout.... As far as I can tell, he had time - and opportunity - to put down both feet, to make himself more stable - I think. Or am I missing something?

Common technique of Mongolian wrestling that Harumafuji executed was preventing him from putting down his left leg. HF had very deep belt grip from behind of Hakuho putting himself almost directly under Hakuho's center of mass, very advantageous position. The moment Hakuho puts his leg, should he try, HF will either use his left arm or right knee to trip Hakuho. If you look the pictures posted in this forum, you will see that Harumafuji's left arm was right there the entire time when Hakuho was hopping. So, Hakuho executed a textbook counter attack, which is to drag Harumafuji forward and down using the belt grip of his own, creating a forward momentum to both. In this case Hakuho could use his position above Harumafuji and basically fall on top, crushing his opponents load bearing left leg. However, Harumafuji really digged in, launching a counter attach of his own, pivoting Hakuho over himself. In this instance Harumafuji could have collapsed there, but he really managed to launch 154 kilo Hakuho with his single arm. Amazing stuff from both.

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Not trying to troll....

But can anyone explain why Hakuho decided to go 'hoppity-hop' at the end of the bout.... As far as I can tell, he had time - and opportunity - to put down both feet, to make himself more stable - I think. Or am I missing something?

Common technique of Mongolian wrestling that Harumafuji executed was preventing him from putting down his left leg. HF had very deep belt grip from behind of Hakuho putting himself almost directly under Hakuho's center of mass, very advantageous position. The moment Hakuho puts his leg, should he try, HF will either use his left arm or right knee to trip Hakuho. If you look the pictures posted in this forum, you will see that Harumafuji's left arm was right there the entire time when Hakuho was hopping. So, Hakuho executed a textbook counter attack, which is to drag Harumafuji forward and down using the belt grip of his own, creating a forward momentum to both. In this case Hakuho could use his position above Harumafuji and basically fall on top, crushing his opponents load bearing left leg. However, Harumafuji really digged in, launching a counter attach of his own, pivoting Hakuho over himself. In this instance Harumafuji could have collapsed there, but he really managed to launch 154 kilo Hakuho with his single arm. Amazing stuff from both.

Many thanks for the clear explanation - I will re-watch the match with that in mind.

I watched the big Naadam last year in Ulan Baator - very entertaining - but I can't remember seeing any hopping. But this, of course, does not mean much, as the wrestling was quite a distance away, and for most of the time (ie all the early rounds), there were many bouts going on at once. The later bouts finished under floodlights - but it was quite dark. (Also, beer was being drunk, naturally.)

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I watched the big Naadam last year in Ulan Baator - very entertaining - but I can't remember seeing any hopping. But this, of course, does not mean much, as the wrestling was quite a distance away, and for most of the time (ie all the early rounds), there were many bouts going on at once. The later bouts finished under floodlights - but it was quite dark. (Also, beer was being drunk, naturally.)

I think that was less a standard defense on Hakuho's part than a desperation move. Not practical at Naadam not least because it usually happens on grass and not smooth sandy dirt, plus they have big Mongolian cowboy boots on.

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Not sure if it has already been mentioned, but I just noticed that almost every one of the 34 rikishi with 4 Yusho or more is a Yokozuna. The sole exception? Kaio.

I guess that shows that Harumafuji's 4 yusho are in themselves a great feat, and if he manages to win even one more at the rank he will have been a more than decent yokozuna overall.

Edited by krindel

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Not trying to troll....

But can anyone explain why Hakuho decided to go 'hoppity-hop' at the end of the bout.... As far as I can tell, he had time - and opportunity - to put down both feet, to make himself more stable - I think. Or am I missing something?

Common technique of Mongolian wrestling that Harumafuji executed was preventing him from putting down his left leg. HF had very deep belt grip from behind of Hakuho putting himself almost directly under Hakuho's center of mass, very advantageous position. The moment Hakuho puts his leg, should he try, HF will either use his left arm or right knee to trip Hakuho. If you look the pictures posted in this forum, you will see that Harumafuji's left arm was right there the entire time when Hakuho was hopping. So, Hakuho executed a textbook counter attack, which is to drag Harumafuji forward and down using the belt grip of his own, creating a forward momentum to both. In this case Hakuho could use his position above Harumafuji and basically fall on top, crushing his opponents load bearing left leg. However, Harumafuji really digged in, launching a counter attach of his own, pivoting Hakuho over himself. In this instance Harumafuji could have collapsed there, but he really managed to launch 154 kilo Hakuho with his single arm. Amazing stuff from both.

Many thanks for the clear explanation - I will re-watch the match with that in mind.

I watched the big Naadam last year in Ulan Baator - very entertaining - but I can't remember seeing any hopping. But this, of course, does not mean much, as the wrestling was quite a distance away, and for most of the time (ie all the early rounds), there were many bouts going on at once. The later bouts finished under floodlights - but it was quite dark. (Also, beer was being drunk, naturally.)

It happens quite a lot usually. Outcome is pretty quick, Harumafuji could have toppled his opponent in a split second with this technique. However, Hakuho was countering the move, making it much longer indeed. Amazingly, Harumafuji was in real danger of losing any moment despite being firmly in driver's seat. That is Mongolian wrestling at its best on Japanse dohyo, displayed by two great masters.

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Who will occupy the Sanyaku spots next basho?

Myogiryu S1e

Goeido S1w

that is obvious

For Komosubi, Homasho and Aminishiki are the most likely candidates. Aminishiki at M4 should be in front with 10 wins, although Homashos 9 at M3 are equally strong, could also be the other way round.

The M1 spots are not so clear, it should be Tochiozan and Okinoumi from below, or maybe Tochinoshin from above, and even Shohozan and Kaisei could remain there at slight MK. For the next spots, Takayasu and Takekaze are in the game.

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Not sure if it has already been mentioned, but I just noticed that almost every one of the 34 rikishi with 4 Yusho or more is a Yokozuna. The sole exception? Kaio.

Not the sole.

But the previous one was Araiwa.

And before Araiwa... Odate, Koyanagi, Tsurugizan, Kashiwado, Tamagaki, Raiden.

This should be all. (Note that Tsurugizan, Kashiwado and Tamagaki all were offered tsuna, but refused).

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Hmm. You probably know that the yusho does exist only since 1909, so technically it's indeed only Kaio.

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Sure - no Tokyo yusho were officially announced before 1909.

What were the yokozuna promotion criteria before 1909?

After the original pair - Tanikaze and Onogawa - in 1789, there were no yokozuna promotions till Onamatsu in 1828. Raiden was never offered tsuna, Kashiwado and Tamagaki refused.

The yokozuna before official yusho, 1835...1904 were:

Onamatsu 5

Inazuma 10

Shiranui Nagiemon 1

Hidenoyama 6

Unryu 7

Shiranui Mitsuemon 3

Kimenzan 7

Jinmaku 5

Sakaigawa 5

Umegatani I 9

Nishinoumi I 2

Konishiki Yasokichi 7

Ozutsu 2

Umegatani II 3

Hitachiyama 8

Over the same period, the more prominent ozeki were:

Hiodoshi 2

Takekuma 2

Tsurugizan 6

Koyanagi 5

Iozan 2

Kumagatani 2

Sakaigawa 2

Tateyama 2

Odate 4

Ichinoya 2

Yahatayama 2

Otohira 2

Miyagino 3

Asashio 2

Kunimiyama 2

Araiwa 6

Since the concept of yusho did not then exist - what were the criteria to pick the bearers of tsuna and pass over the other above listed ozeki?

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Sure - no Tokyo yusho were officially announced before 1909.

What were the yokozuna promotion criteria before 1909?

After the original pair - Tanikaze and Onogawa - in 1789, there were no yokozuna promotions till Onamatsu in 1828. Raiden was never offered tsuna, Kashiwado and Tamagaki refused.

The yokozuna before official yusho, 1835...1904 were:

Onamatsu 5

Inazuma 10

Shiranui Nagiemon 1

Hidenoyama 6

Unryu 7

Shiranui Mitsuemon 3

Kimenzan 7

Jinmaku 5

Sakaigawa 5

Umegatani I 9

Nishinoumi I 2

Konishiki Yasokichi 7

Ozutsu 2

Umegatani II 3

Hitachiyama 8

Over the same period, the more prominent ozeki were:

Hiodoshi 2

Takekuma 2

Tsurugizan 6

Koyanagi 5

Iozan 2

Kumagatani 2

Sakaigawa 2

Tateyama 2

Odate 4

Ichinoya 2

Yahatayama 2

Otohira 2

Miyagino 3

Asashio 2

Kunimiyama 2

Araiwa 6

Since the concept of yusho did not then exist - what were the criteria to pick the bearers of tsuna and pass over the other above listed ozeki?

My historical understanding is that the criteria were strictly political, in the era you mention. Yokozuna promotions were affected (if not determined) by the influence of a rikishi's patron, not strength alone.

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I have to say I'm waiting to see what conspiracy the tinfoil hat brigade over at ST will assign Harumafuji's yusho to...

I've got news for you- quietly, a few of their best have settled here and have been more than welcomed.

Thank you Moti, much appreciated!

I object! I've never been quiet.

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