勝 Katsu 20 Posted August 5, 2012 I am surprised that this forum has yet to have this discussion. I'm interested in Sumo, not just because of the hunky, hunky guys ;) but also because of the religious and spiritual aspects involved. Sumo itself is not separate from Shinto and I think that's an important fact to remember when dealing with "fan-ness" Let's disinclude the ideal of "sport as religion" for a moment. Let's also remove pre-historic/ancient referent such as ōllamaliztli (in the Mayan and Aztec cultures) as a game for the entertainment and sacrifice to the gods or the Egyptian hebSed Festival in which the rulers participation in the games was meant to appease the gods. Instead, let's just discuss modern sports and spirituality. Why? Well because there are very...very few sports in this age which include a truly spiritual element. Sumo is one of those (The only other sports I could find (other than martial arts in general) that would compare are Varzesh-e Bastani and Malla-yuddha (Interesting side note; both of these are also forms of wrestling....things that make you go hmmm) The first Sumo match which was written about was of course, the match between Amaterasu-no-kami and her brother. This indicates an inseperable link between Shinto and Sumo. As you may or may not be aware, Amaterasu is the Great Sun Goddess and Supreme Deity of the Shinto pantheon. The next, of course, was the famous match between the gods Takemikazuchi and Takeminakata The earliest recorded human match was: "The Nihon Shoki records that in the seventh month of 642, on the occasion of the visit to Japan of the envoy of the Korean Kingdom of Paekche, "strongman wrestling" (chikarahito no sumō) was held in the presence of Prince Gyōki of Paekche, who was already in Japan at the time." Most of us should be aware that Sumo is also practiced at various shrines, during different holy festivals such as: chōyō no sekku at Kamowakeikazuchi Jinja "Karasu sumō" to honor Yatakarasu "The number of shrines that incorporate sacred sumō (shiyūhaira) as part of their rituals — such the kamisumō match held at the end of Suwa Taisha Shrine's ofune matsuri (boat festival) or the match between the kami at Okidōsen Mita Hachimangū Shrine's dengakusai — are too numerous to mention." karatoyama sumō at Hakui Jinja zuiki matsuri at Mikami Jinja and Urate shinji at Tamanoya Jinja to name a few. :) Japan also has a tradition of having Sumo walk through neighborhoods throwing beans at houses to scare away demons. This and other rituals performed by the wrestlers makes them not just sportsmen...but priests. For those of you who, when someone says "priest", instantly think of a guy in black with a collar, keep in mind that in pre-monotheist cultures there were (are) a wide variety of priesthoods ranging from "the priest that recites the prayers" to "the priest who takes care of the gardening" all of which had (have) priesthood status, but perform separate functions. I don't think that anyone in modern Japan would consider rikishi priests but I'm putting forth a different way of looking at Sumo. The shiyūhaira was literally the first type of Sumo and I feel very strongly about the concept that while the gishiki performed prior to the matches are important (and priestly duties), the match itself is also a ritual act and should be considered a priestly function as well. Check out the entry on Sumo at the Shinto encyclopedia!! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mukonoso 273 Posted August 5, 2012 Interesting thoughts. Thanks for the link to the Shinto encyclopedia. Nice addition to my books on the subject. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bugman 384 Posted August 6, 2012 Japan also has a tradition of having Sumo walk through neighborhoods throwing beans at houses to scare away demons. I really like the thought of that, great tradition. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
勝 Katsu 20 Posted August 10, 2012 Interesting thoughts. Thanks for the link to the Shinto encyclopedia. Nice addition to my books on the subject. Yah, I luv the Shinto Encyclopedia online. I luv the videos and audio too, but it seems as though the entries could be much more in depth. I have several more links for anyone interested; http://www.shinto.org/isf/studies.html http://www.obakemono.com/obake/kappa/ (kappa kami are GREAT rikishi!) http://www.kiku.com/electric_samurai/cyber_shrine/links.html (an English site, from Japan RE: all the Shinto shrines online) http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/buddhism.shtml (this is what I feel the Shinto Encyclopedia should look like...except without all the Buddhism. ;) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mukonoso 273 Posted August 11, 2012 Great stuff. I especially like the "obake" site. I've got a couple of handbooks on the subject. One by Shigeru Mizuki (Gegege no Kitaro) and an English version with art by one of his assistants. Great summer reading. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orion 431 Posted August 11, 2012 Japan also has a tradition of having Sumo walk through neighborhoods throwing beans at houses to scare away demons. This and other rituals performed by the wrestlers makes them not just sportsmen...but priests. I've never come across this -- and I've been living in Ryogoku, the sumo heartland, for over 30 years. On the bean-throwing day, however, big shrines and temples invite celebrities including famous sumo-san to stand on a balcony and throw beans at the crowd below. Narita-san is particularly famous for this -- or gets into all the papers, which amounts to the same thing. Orion Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark.Buckton 68 Posted August 11, 2012 Japan also has a tradition of having Sumo walk through neighborhoods throwing beans at houses to scare away demons. This and other rituals performed by the wrestlers makes them not just sportsmen...but priests. I've never come across this -- and I've been living in Ryogoku, the sumo heartland, for over 30 years. Orion I have seen this many times over the years in areas the heya are not on every other street as they are in Ryogoku. As I have a house between 2 well known heya I do see the rikishi out throwing beans in February - particularly in the streets around the heya, near kindergartens. That said, I do not think it makes them any more a priest than anyone else throwing beans on the same day. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mukonoso 273 Posted August 11, 2012 Will Naki Sumo fit in with this discussion about spirituality in sumo? http://www.odditycentral.com/pics/baby-crying-festival-held-in-japan.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
勝 Katsu 20 Posted August 12, 2012 "That said, I do not think it makes them any more a priest than anyone else throwing beans on the same day." Yes, but consider this, why are rikishi asked to do this...specifically? why not bakers or fishermen or school teachers? (I mean, I know that there are others who are asked to throw the beans, but rikishi seem to have a "special task" in doing so.) Exorcism, in other faiths, is considered a priests' duty so if you've got these men who; "wear special clothing" "perform rituals to their gods (that only they are permitted to perform)" "perform rites of purification" and "perform exorcisms" Sounds an awful lot like a priest to me! :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
勝 Katsu 20 Posted August 12, 2012 Will Naki Sumo fit in with this discussion about spirituality in sumo? http://www.odditycen...d-in-japan.html Sure...why not...we'll call it the Japanese version of circumcision...(and it's less harmful to the child) :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark.Buckton 68 Posted August 12, 2012 "That said, I do not think it makes them any more a priest than anyone else throwing beans on the same day." Yes, but consider this, why are rikishi asked to do this...specifically? why not bakers or fishermen or school teachers? (I mean, I know that there are others who are asked to throw the beans, but rikishi seem to have a "special task" in doing so.) Exorcism, in other faiths, is considered a priests' duty so if you've got these men who; "wear special clothing" "perform rituals to their gods (that only they are permitted to perform)" "perform rites of purification" and "perform exorcisms" Sounds an awful lot like a priest to me! :) If you look at a piece of toast long enough I imagine you will eventually see an image of Jesus. First, I doubt you are in Japan as many people in many professions are asked each year to throw beans as part of their job. Most see no significance in the actions and last night I mailed a couple of rikishi asking their opinion and they said it was just something they did. They felt nothing and were amused when I asked if they considered themselves priests. Add that to the fact that many so-called Shinto priests are 'part-timers'* and almost all visitors to shrines do this - "perform rituals to their gods (that only they are permitted to perform)" "perform rites of purification" and I think you will see that anyone can really be seen to be a priest by your definition to some degree. * a friend - Japanese - was once a part time priest performing 'rituals' at a number of shrines in busy periods. He has never studied the religion and just memorized what he had been taught. He 'exorcized' potential bad spirits in numerous ceremonies before buildings were built, changing into priest garb in his car around the corner. Hell, in Japan, there are newspaper ads looking for people to marry people in hotel chapels! They are no more Christian priests than the socks on my feet as it is but a show. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orion 431 Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) As a matter of interest, there is one case in sumo where three gyoji wear the robes of Shinto priests, not gyoji costumes: on the morning before a hon-basho begins, the dohyo is 'dedicated' (my term not a literal translation; in Japanese it's simply 'dohyo-matsuri'). The ritual is performed by three gyoji, the chief or his deputy, and one gyoji each of makunouchi and juryo rank. Over the years I've asked a number of them "Are you a priest when you take part in the dohyo matsuri?" and the answer is a decided "No, we are not priests; we are gyoji and that is one of the jobs performed by gyoji." In every sumo-beya that has its own training ring (nearly all of them), before it can be used for training the ring has to be rededicated whenever it has been remade, and this job is done by one gyoji, this time in one of his ordinary gyoji costumes. In this case it doesn't even have to be a high-ranking gyoji -- it depends on who is available to that stable. On the reverse side, some years back I've had rikishi (not gyoji!) ask _me_ to say a prayer for _them_ when I returned from Yamagata where I had taken part in yamabushi rituals in the three sacred mountains of Dewa -- nothing requiring intensive training, just minimal food, minimal rest, and utter obedience when ordered to stand under a waterfall or jump into a river up to the neck just before dawn, and stay there until the real yamabushi leader finished intoning his rather lengthy prayers. When I got back, carrying the macrame-like necklace of twisted paper string that I had worn throughout, I showed it to two brothers across the road, who had just finished training for the day. The younger, who had been stuck on seven wins for days, got the first prayer; the older very meekly bowed his head and said "Rather, please put it on me and pray -- so far I've won none at all" -- and I did my best yamabushi-style incantation. At the end-of-basho party, however, when I met the younger, who got his kachi-koshi the same day I'd prayed for him, and the elder, though ending up make-koshi, had got his first win that same day, I assured them, "It was your own stronger spirit that changed your performance." But what I had brought back was something regarded as bringing luck (or a blessing, depending on your point of view). And I see no real difference in the belief of carrying similar things from Christian places of pilgrimage. The bearer of the blessed item is not a priest, but someone who has made the journey on behalf of others who can't go. Orion Edited August 12, 2012 by Orion 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
勝 Katsu 20 Posted August 17, 2012 "That said, I do not think it makes them any more a priest than anyone else throwing beans on the same day." Yes, but consider this, why are rikishi asked to do this...specifically? why not bakers or fishermen or school teachers? (I mean, I know that there are others who are asked to throw the beans, but rikishi seem to have a "special task" in doing so.) Exorcism, in other faiths, is considered a priests' duty so if you've got these men who; "wear special clothing" "perform rituals to their gods (that only they are permitted to perform)" "perform rites of purification" and "perform exorcisms" Sounds an awful lot like a priest to me! :) If you look at a piece of toast long enough I imagine you will eventually see an image of Jesus. First, I doubt you are in Japan as many people in many professions are asked each year to throw beans as part of their job. Most see no significance in the actions and last night I mailed a couple of rikishi asking their opinion and they said it was just something they did. They felt nothing and were amused when I asked if they considered themselves priests. Add that to the fact that many so-called Shinto priests are 'part-timers'* and almost all visitors to shrines do this - "perform rituals to their gods (that only they are permitted to perform)" "perform rites of purification" and I think you will see that anyone can really be seen to be a priest by your definition to some degree. * a friend - Japanese - was once a part time priest performing 'rituals' at a number of shrines in busy periods. He has never studied the religion and just memorized what he had been taught. He 'exorcized' potential bad spirits in numerous ceremonies before buildings were built, changing into priest garb in his car around the corner. Hell, in Japan, there are newspaper ads looking for people to marry people in hotel chapels! They are no more Christian priests than the socks on my feet as it is but a show. 1. I didn't say anything about Christianity. 2. Yes. I am discussing opening the definition of priesthood to include many people. 3. In Ancient Egypt, the priests were also part-timers. That didn't make them "not priests" when they went home for the day. 4. Well, actually, you accomplished something I didn't expect to happen from this post...the word actually got to some rikishi...thanks so much. That is much more than I could have hoped for. :) 5. No. I'm in Beijing. 6. No. I will never see an image of Joshua of Nazareth in a piece of toast. :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
勝 Katsu 20 Posted August 17, 2012 I did my best yamabushi-style incantation. At the end-of-basho party, however, when I met the younger, who got his kachi-koshi the same day I'd prayed for him, and the elder, though ending up make-koshi, had got his first win that same day, I assured them, "It was your own stronger spirit that changed your performance." Orion Orion! Thanks so much for sharing! That's also something I didn't expect to happen with this post. Heh-heh who'd have thought there's an actual yamabushi on this board. Nice to make your aquaintance! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark.Buckton 68 Posted August 17, 2012 You have a theory and are using certain select 'facts' and ideas to prove that theory, ignoring the reality that the facts as is / as are, debunk the theory outright when all are taken together. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Igordemorais 75 Posted August 17, 2012 Katsu that IS Goro Daimon damn you! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
勝 Katsu 20 Posted August 22, 2012 Mark, It's not a "theory" it's a worldview. Worldviews do not have to based on anything more than the perception of the viewer :-D ;-) (Applauding...) . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
勝 Katsu 20 Posted August 22, 2012 Igordemorais, Hahaha! No silly rikishi....video games are for trids....further proof can be found at; http://www.japanesegayart.com (search Jiraya) His original work is nude. I gave the piece a facelift, a mawashi and a Shinto shrine. :-D Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Igordemorais 75 Posted August 23, 2012 I could click on that link, that's the easy part. Explaining that being on my browser history to my girlfriend however, would be a tad harder. :D Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fay 1,677 Posted August 23, 2012 Hmmm, I don't know, I see a lot of Oyakata walking like this, with these little bags (and often with the Louis Vuitton sign on it), the best of all is Sadogatake Oyakata. ;-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
勝 Katsu 20 Posted September 9, 2012 I found another link for this topic! http://factsanddetails.com/japan.php?itemid=756&catid=21&subcatid=138 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
勝 Katsu 20 Posted September 10, 2012 I could click on that link, that's the easy part. Explaining that being on my browser history to my girlfriend however, would be a tad harder. :D LOL! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
勝 Katsu 20 Posted September 16, 2012 For those of you who are interested in Shinto and other pagan belief systems, you might like a study I recently completed RE: Shinto v/ Ancient Egypt (Kemet). The two belief systems are, while not identical, so similar it bares mentioning. :) (And yes...the ancient Kemetans had a form of sacred wrestling too...:) Blog Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
勝 Katsu 20 Posted October 4, 2012 (edited) I'm still trying to research/keep alive this topic. I found this online from Time magazine dated 2010: "In the end, what may save sumo is its spiritual heart "Sometimes I just cancel practice and talk about sumo's traditions and culture instead," says high-school coach Yamada. "There is an elegance to the whole tradition. That's what gives it a Japanese essence." "Fluorescent lights shine down on the scuffed ring, and the place smells like a locker room left to fester. But then 18 students, sticky with sand and slick with perspiration, form a circle around the ring, bring their hands together and bow their heads to the gods. For a moment, the future of sumo is united in worship. It is a most inspiring sight." Question: I found an article about Konishiki. Does anyone know what religion he practices? The article said: "Konishiki, as well as being a master of his game is also a very spiritual man. He spends a lot of his free time, which he has more of nowadays, in his favourite ashram." That would mean he's Hindu...but being Samoan and being Hawaiian...probably means he's Buddhist or Shinto. Konishiki also started a foundation called Konishiki Kids Foundation. He helps poor Hawaiian kids. :) (Whereas someone like Kobe Bryant who is worth about 30million bought his way out of a rape conviction....I'm just saying....) You know something....I grabbed this to reiterate the concept of Sumo being a spiritual sport...ie...everyone there (except the nosebleeds) is under a Shrine Roof! ( Tsuriyane) But, I realized that this is the Tokyo arena and the live feed simply did not do the size of the place justice. :) Here's a interesting note from somebody writing on the same topic a few yeerz ago; http://www.webtrek.c...May/008307.html Here's some general info (I donno...I found a Sumo site through Bing (because google is being blocked)...thought somebody could use it for something) Anyway....note: The Yokozuna make annual pilgrimages to Ise Jingu Pevious to the Tokugawa era...almost all Sumo matches were held in shrines. Yokozuna have their first dohyo-iri in shrines One does not see any football or baseball stadiums with shrines out/inside them.NOR does one see venders and said sporting events selling ritual items for offerings to the gods. More on this later Edited October 4, 2012 by 勝 Katsu Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
勝 Katsu 20 Posted October 5, 2012 More links: http://suite101.com/article/sumo-wrestling-and-shinto-a131536 This from Times Online: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/ed20120930a1.html From Facts and Details.com: " Sumo reportedly began as a ritual in Shinto ceremonies to entertain the gods. According to one legend it was originally practiced by the gods and handed down to people 2,000 years ago. According to another legend the Japanese were given the right to rule over the islands of Japan after the god Takemikazuchi won a sumo bout with the leader of a rival tribe. There are many religious traditions in sumo: wrestlers sip sacred water and throw purifying salt into the ring before a match; the referee dresses like a Shinto priest, a Shinto shrine hangs over the ring. When wrestlers enter the ring they clap their hands to summon the gods. In ancient times sumo was performed with sacred dancing and other rituals on the grounds of Shinto shrines. Today, sumo still has religious overtones. The wrestling area is considered sacred and every time a wrestler enters the ring he must purify it with salt. Top-ranked wrestlers are regarded as acolytes of the Shinto faith. According to Japanese legend the origin of the Japanese race depended on the outcome of a sumo match. In ancient times, one old story goes, Japan was divided into two conflicting kingdoms: East and West. One day a messenger from the West proposed that the strongest man from each region would dress in rope belts and wrestle, with the winner being the leader of a united Japan. This wrestling match is said to be the first sumo match." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites