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Jejima

Bench Euro 2012

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I have just sent the following to the Bench Sumo Mailing List. If the mods think this should be in off-topic, please go ahead and move it ;-)

Hi all,

Would anyone be interested in taking part in a Bench Euro 2012? This would be run on basically the same way we did the Bench World Cup back in 2010 - which was mostly a big success.

The only differences being....

a) We won't have the 'Plate' etc tournaments. Once you're out, you're out ;-) - just like the real thing.

b) There are only 16 teams - so only 16 players can take part. So the first 15 (I'd play ;-)) to reply to this email can take part.

c) As there are only 16 teams in this tournament, it means that we have half the teams to select from (compared to the World Cup) - after some thought, I think it can still work, as the 'Represented' and their counterpart teams will make the difference (hopefully). Also, I have had a look at the rankings of the teams (based on the odds given by three different bookmakers), and I *think* that the resulting division of teams into 8 pairs makes the available options fairly interesting.

d) A possible difference (up for quick discussion, my opinion being the final one), is that for the Bench World Cup, you selected from each of the 8 groupings AND got an additional two teams (your represented team, plus its counterpart), making a total of 10 teams in your squad (like Bench Sumo). Due to the smaller number of teams, this *could* be changed to your represented team and its counterpart being your de facto picks for those groupings, thereby everyone ending up with just 8 teams on their squad. I am not sure which is better, but currently I prefer having the 10 teams..... As the difference in ability of the teams taking part in Euro 2012 are not as vast as for the World Cup, I don't think it would give too much of an edge (but enough to make it interesting) for the two players who would end up with Spain and Germany on their rota (they'd also get Denmark and Ireland), compared to the the two players (at the other extreme) who'd get Portugal, Russia, Croatia and Ukraine. The other 'forced' combinations would be Netherlands, England, Greece and Sweden; France, Italy, Czech Republic and Poland

The groupings for picking (based on odds given by Paddy Power, William Hill and Coral) would be as follows:-

Yokozuna

Spain / Germany

Ozeki

Netherlands / England

Sekiwake

France / Italy

Komusubi

Portugal / Russia

Upper joi-jin

Ukraine / Croatia

Lower joi-jin

Poland / Czech Republic

Mid-Maegashira

Sweden / Greece

Low Maegashira

Ireland / Denmark

This would be a 'Beta' tournament, so rules could change at a moment's notice - but we pretty much got them sorted out for the Bench World Cup, in the end. If there is enough interest (i.e. 16 of us sign up to play), I'll dig through all the old emails from that World Cup, and send out the official rules to everyone.

The first match of the tournament is approaching quite quickly (and some admin needs to be done before the tournament starts) - so if you would like to play, please just send me a private email saying so, as soon as possible - I guess the deadline date will have to be very soon for the initial entry, so how about 48 hours from now? (Tuesday, 2pm JST). If (Once?) we have 16 entrants, then we'll move onto the next stage of selecting our represented teams. Before the next stage of picking our squads, and then selecting the line-ups for the first round of matches.

Also, please let me know about how you feel about the d) above in your initial entry email.

All the best,

Jejima

Edited by Jejima

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Hi all,

So far, 6 players are signed up to play....

Jejima, Rubensan, Maguroyama, Kameumi, Pitinosato and Rannohana.

Rubensan made a comment in his email which has made me rethink about the initial groupings.

Rather than having 8 pairs to choose from, have 2 pairs, and four groupings of three (so 6 groups to choose from). Then also include the represented and counterbalance teams, to make squads of 8. I really like this idea, as it should give more variety to our squads.

A further idea would be to have just 5 groups with roughly 3 or 4 in each (or possibly 2 - if the odds given warrant such a split), plus the two additional special teams to make squads of 7, which I think would also work - and would / should give better diversity in squads and tactics.

Anyway, before going further with this, we are looking for ten more players to join :-) When (If?) you join, please let me know what you think about the groupings, and size.

All the best,

Jejima

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Would like to help you out, Jezz, but I've just lost interest in footy as it is now, more than ever, just a bunch of pampered millionaires playing a game that now exists to make a load of cash for a bunch of suits. It has strayed so far from what I think it should be. Much like the Olympics, which I will actually be avoiding (boycotting) altogether!

That said, I hope everyone who joins enjoys Bench Euro 2012!

Oh...and I had to laugh seeing England at Ozeki!! I'd put them somewhere in mid-Juryo!

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Still need seven more players to make it a go-er....

The groupings will would be changed (England remain in the second tier - I think it is partly due to the bookmaker sites, where I got the odds from, having plenty of gamblers from England, thereby inflating their price...) to just six groups.

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Hi all,

We fell short by four players (12 signed up) by the deadline. If it it were one or two off the 16, I'd probably beg for a player or two to make up the numbers, but 25% short is a little too much, I guess.

I'll probably try again for the 2014 World Cup (but then 32 players are needed!), as I think the game itself is good.

(Many thanks to Rubensan, Maguroyama, Kameumi, Pitinosato, Rannohana, Andonishiki, Asashosakari, Achiyama, Jakusotsu, Chabonowaka and Mischashimaru.)

All the best,

Jejima

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Sorry to hear that there won't be Bench Euro 2012. Can't you draw 4 of the signed up players to play with 2 squads, or have Drones?

Maybe it was a very short notice?!

For Bench World 2014, you have to ask for participants at least a week, maybe 2 weeks before the start.

Thanks for the effort though.

Regards,

Achiyama

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That's bad news indeed.

I really enjoyed the bench world cup 2010 and was looking forward to the bench euro 2012.

For the record I wouldnt mind playing with 4 drones (or playing 2 squads for that matter).

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Well, that is a possibility, I suppose. Four players get two teams to look after - but *must* give up one team after the group stages (their choice of which) - if both go through, after the groups stages, to the best performing knocked out players (who go through to the next round with their initially 'selected team'....). That way, for the knock-out stages, we would have 8 teams represented by different players.

The players with two teams would have to have their 'represented teams' in different groups, I guess, in order to avoid playing yourself...

[Or, there could be one drone in each of the initial groups.... If such a drone progresses, the player that came third in that group would take the drone's place using the player's picked squad....]

I'll leave it another 24 hours to see what others think, and just in case a few more players sign up ;-)

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I will play if it comes down to you needing one more...

Don't want my dumb principles ruining a game for a bunch of good lads!!

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Ok, count me in. Don't have the time next month really but I guess this doesn't need a lot of time if I can remember the rules from two years ago.

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okay, arm-twisting time I guess.

We now have 15 players signed up - one more, and we are good to go :-)

As it looks as if this game will go ahead, please send can all signed up players: (Jejima, Rubensan, Maguroyama, Kameumi, Pitinosato, Rannohana, Andonishiki, Asashosakari, Achiyama, Jakusotsu, Chabonowaka, Mischashimaru, Xiaotan, Pandaazuma, Doitsuyama and 'your-shikona-here'), please send me in order of preference the team that you would like to represent for Euro 2012. This team sort of counts double - but you also get a counter-balancing team to 'even things' up a bit - which also has slightly special rules.

Let me know your top 5 preferred teams. If two players both have the same first choice, there will be a random draw etc.... It all works out.

Send me an email (or PM) with something like this:-

1. Lichtenstein

2. Andorra

3. Vatican City

4. Malta

5. San Marino

I'll send my picks now to Asashosakari to avoid 'cheating'.

The teams (with their counter-balancing teams) in order of 'odds' are as follows:-

Spain - Denmark

Germany - Ireland

Netherlands - Greece

England - Sweden

France - Czech Republic

Italy - Poland

Portugal - Croatia

Russia - Ukraine

Ukraine - Russia

Croatia - Portugal

Poland - Italy

Czech Republic - France

Sweden - England

Greece - Netherlands

Ireland - Germany

Denmark - Spain

So as to avoid jamming up the Bench Sumo Mailing List, I suggest we use this thread for the game.... Any objections?

Edited by Jejima

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To be fair, I should let inform everyone about their squads. It will be your represented team, the counterbalance team AND another team from the counterbalance team's group and the other four groups, but NOT from the group where you picked your representative team (making a total of 7 - stats provided for me by Asashosakari from the Bench World Cup shows that this should be okay to determine results). So, if you represent Spain, you WON'T get Germany. But if you represent Denmark, and so get Spain as your counterbalance, you WILL also get Germany. I *think* this will even things up for players representing 'weaker' teams.

These are the groups for selection. The number in brackets are the average odds from three online bookmakers from a couple of days ago (yes, there is probably a bias towards England, due to these sites being popular with English gamblers):-

Yokozuna

Spain (2.5) - the in form side

Germany (3) - have an incredible record in the World Cup and the Euros - usually good for at least a semi-final place.

Ozeki

Netherlands (7) - Good team, but are in a tough group

England (10) - Possibly inflated odds (see above), but are usually good enough to get to the quarter-finals

France (11) - Same group as England. Either brilliant or a disappointment... Where to put your money?

Sekiwake

Italy (14) - same group as Spain - but should be good enough for a quarter-final place, at least, surely?

Portugal (17.3) - Suffering from being in the 'Group of Death' - normally their odds would be higher.

Russia (20.3) - In the easiest group to begin with - but after that?

Komusubi

Ukraine (43.3) - Co-hosts - so may have home advantage?

Croatia (46.7) - Like the Ukraine, they are third favourites in their group. So, we'll all have to think hard about this choice ;-)

Upper Maegashira

Poland (50) - Co-host (so home advantage?), but lower ranked (according to FIFA) than the Czech Republic....

Czech Republic (60.7) - ....who are in the same group.

Sweden (66) - I think these are very low odds for this team, who have a good record against England, and are higher ranked (according to FIFA) than the Ukraine.

Lower Maegashira

Greece (70.7) - they won it in 2004 against the odds!

Ireland (80) - a plucky team that always mix it up

Denmark (93.3) - only at the bottom of the totem pole, because they are in the 'Group of Death' - they won it in 1996 1992 (against the odds too)

These are the groups for the first three matches....

Group A

Poland

Greece

Russia

Czech Republic

Group B

Netherlands

Denmark

Germany

Portugal

Group C

Spain

Italy

Ireland

Croatia

Group D

Ukraine

Sweden

France

England

Edited by Jejima

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...Denmark (93.3) - only at the bottom of the totem pole, because they are in the 'Group of Death' - they won it in 1996 (against the odds too)...

Small correction.... Denmark won in 1992. 1996 it was Germany for the third time.

Ganzohnesushi

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England - again the most over-estimated and over-rated team. A mediocre team with crappy goalkeepers... they will not even win a flower-pot.

Ganzohnesushi

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England - again the most over-estimated and over-rated team.

Agree

A mediocre team

Agree

with crappy goalkeepers

Do not agree regarding England's first choice keeper. Joe Hart is not bad. (The rest, okay, you have a good point.)

... they will not even win a flower-pot.

Sadly, I probably agree with this - but I may hope a bit.... (Greece had no chance in 2002 - Denmark didn't even qualify in 1996 1992 - yet those 'mediocre' teams won ;-))

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Jeez, great news, that we are on !

just read your mail again, not 100% sure, how it is going to work, but rethought my first choice of preferred team.

here is the new TOP FIVE

1. Czech

2. Poland

3. France

4. Netherlands

5. Spain

all the best everyone

CONGRATS to the BLUES, famous CFC, CHELSEA LONDON

and may the EURO2012 be won by Marco Reuss, Mario Goetze and Lars Bender (ex 1860 Munich player) !!

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I know I'm not playing, but the team rankings looked very odd to me. Had a look at the official FIFA rankings as regards the EUFA rankings, and they're a "little" different from your bookies.

Denmark are not "bottom of the totem pole", Poland are. Denmark should be listed at Sekiwake on your list. France are not Ozeki, they're Upper Maegashira, and so on.

The official rankings make a huge difference to "counterbalancing" teams. Poland to Spain for example.

Just thought I'd say.

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It would probably be better to send me this in a private PM - as now everyone now knows your picks ;-) But this might scare off others from selecting the Czechs - so maybe a good tactic. I'm off to bed.

Fingers crossed there will be another participant by the time I wake up - otherwise I am going to have to work out some drone rules (which I really don't want to do...).....

Jeez, great news, that we are on !

just read your mail again, not 100% sure, how it is going to work, but rethought my first choice of preferred team.

here is the new TOP FIVE

1. Czech

2. Poland

3. France

4. Netherlands

5. Spain

all the best everyone

CONGRATS to the BLUES, famous CFC, CHELSEA LONDON

and may the EURO2012 be won by Marco Reuss, Mario Goetze and Lars Bender (ex 1860 Munich player) !!

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Okay, one last post before bed.

There is a reason why the bookmakers odds are used, rather than the official FIFA ones. FIFA will not lose money if they get it wrong ;-)

Denmark are a good team. However, they were drawn in the 'Group of Death', along with Germany, the Netherlands and Portugal. These other three teams are very good. Therefore, Denmark will be the underdog in all of its three group matches (i.e. it is not expected to win any of them). Therefore Denmark is not expected to progress to the knock-out stages.

Poland is ranked lower than Denmark according to FIFA, but they have home advantage, and are in the 'easy' group. - therefore Poland are much more likely to progress past the group stage.

I know I'm not playing, but the team rankings looked very odd to me. Had a look at the official FIFA rankings as regards the EUFA rankings, and they're a "little" different from your bookies.

Denmark are not "bottom of the totem pole", Poland are. Denmark should be listed at Sekiwake on your list. France are not Ozeki, they're Upper Maegashira, and so on.

The official rankings make a huge difference to "counterbalancing" teams. Poland to Spain for example.

Just thought I'd say.

Edit: Why not play, and prove me (and the bookmakers) wrong? Okay, I am begging, but just one more player would mean I wouldn't have to think up drone rules tomorrow ;-)

Edited by Jejima

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I know I'm not playing, but the team rankings looked very odd to me. Had a look at the official FIFA rankings as regards the EUFA rankings, and they're a "little" different from your bookies.

Denmark are not "bottom of the totem pole", Poland are. Denmark should be listed at Sekiwake on your list. France are not Ozeki, they're Upper Maegashira, and so on.

The official rankings make a huge difference to "counterbalancing" teams. Poland to Spain for example.

Just thought I'd say.

The FIFA/UEFA Rankings are soley based on numbers and old preformances.

They are much more an indicator of how teams "has been doing" then an estimate to "how they will be doing".

The FIFA/UEFA Rankings are also affected by how teams from the different national leauges preform in inter-league competitions.

(Something that isnt really a good indicator of how strong a national team is, since the distrubution of topplayers are very centered to only a few leauges.)

Going by the general sence of a gathering of differnet bookmakers is very much the prefured way to set the ranks of teams here.

It is not only logcial but have been showed to have vastly more correct estimates then rankings, every single tournament that I've experienced. (Both National and Club)

Edited by Kameumi

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I know I'm not playing, but the team rankings looked very odd to me. Had a look at the official FIFA rankings as regards the EUFA rankings, and they're a "little" different from your bookies.

Denmark are not "bottom of the totem pole", Poland are. Denmark should be listed at Sekiwake on your list. France are not Ozeki, they're Upper Maegashira, and so on.

The official rankings make a huge difference to "counterbalancing" teams. Poland to Spain for example.

Just thought I'd say.

The FIFA/UEFA Rankings are soley based on numbers and old preformances.

They are much more an indicator of how teams "has been doing" then an estimate to "how they will be doing".

The FIFA/UEFA Rankings are also affected by how teams from the different national leauges preform in inter-league competitions.

(Something that isnt really a good indicator of how strong a national team is, since the distrubution of topplayers are very centered to only a few leauges.)

I can't imagine how you would calculate rankings on any other basis than achievements to date. To say "how they will be doing" would be akin to making Kisenosato a Yokozuna because he's a popular choice.

Also,to say that the FIFA/UEFA national rankings are affected by teams from the different national leagues is a nonsense. Only the club co-efficients for the CL and Europa League are affected by league club performances.

Refer to this link for confirmation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficient

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So, what is the decision for the squad selection? Do we go with 8-man squad (including the represented and the counterbalanced teams) or 10-man squad (including the R and CB teams)?

Achiyama

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I can't imagine how you would calculate rankings on any other basis than achievements to date. To say "how they will be doing" would be akin to making Kisenosato a Yokozuna because he's a popular choice.

If you were playing a pre-basho sumo game and had a choice of good rikishi at M1E or an average rikishi at M15W - who would you select?

I would probably select the average rikishi at M15W, because he will avoid the meat-grinder of the sanyaku. Look at this as though Denmark has been drawn in the meat-grinder group, whereas Poland will be fighting against rikishi at the lower end of the division in his 'home basho'.

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So, what is the decision for the squad selection? Do we go with 8-man squad (including the represented and the counterbalanced teams) or 10-man squad (including the R and CB teams)?

Achiyama

Please read my post from yesterday.

It will be 7 teams made up of R and CB, plus one team from each of the six groups EXCEPT the group with your R team.

Can everyone please send me the list of their preferred 5 teams that they would like to represent (NOT the whole squad just yet), so that I can make the draw later today.

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