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Kintamayama

YDC convenes as usual

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The YDC convened today and its members had stuff to say about the just-ended basho.

About Hakuhou, who finished his worst ever basho as Yokozuna with only 10 wins: "He's been the sole Yokozuna for a long time and has been 'pulling' everyone after him. The fatigue is showing. I can sympathize with that. Two years ago he had 4 zenshos.This year he has none, but he is still young. He will gambarize!" said chairman Tsuruta.

Regarding the six Ozeki: "I think at least two of them should constantly be in the yusho race. I'd like the Ozeki camp to generate some excitement. The fact that no yusho comes from their midst is problematic.. We should change the system and say they need at least 10 wins to keep their rank, They are somewhat pathetic" he added.

"I forgot to bring my chessboard so I drew one by myself"- Tsuruta-san:

001.jpg

Edited by Kintamayama
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We should change the system and say they need at least 10 wins to keep their rank, They are somewhat pathetic" he added.

Sounds like the YDC might be reading our forum...

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About time. Make anything less than 10-5 a MK for an Ozeki.

Then again, having said that, with 6 Ozeki, something's gotta give.... If that were implemented for this past basho, Harumafuji, Kotooshu, Kakuryu and Baruto would now be kaddoban...

Well, it would certainly make life interesting for these guys.

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I'm pretty sure the Kyokai takes Tsuruta's ozeki comments even less seriously than they do ours.

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About time. Make anything less than 10-5 a MK for an Ozeki.

Better... Anything less than 10-5 is a kadoban, and anything less than 8-7 is an MK.

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Tsuruta is hilarious...comic relief at the end of every basho. They should make him wear some kind of costume and a comedy nose.

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The Ozeki are 6 already and with a helping hand every now and then it is possible to remain there for a long, long time. Either they make the way up easier and allow us to see some rikishi crash and burn at Yokozuna (or surprise us by showing how they can develop), or facilitate the way down to avoid it becoming a lifetime membership club.

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The Ozeki are 6 already and with a helping hand every now and then it is possible to remain there for a long, long time. Either they make the way up easier and allow us to see some rikishi crash and burn at Yokozuna (or surprise us by showing how they can develop), or facilitate the way down to avoid it becoming a lifetime membership club.

I suppose it's too much to ask that they actually do something about the OBSC when it rears its ugly head.

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Reverse-angle Jumbo:

20120521-899115-1-L.jpg

BTW, for possible clarification:

"We should change the system and say they need at least 10 wins to keep their rank, They are somewhat pathetic" he added.

Tsuruta's saying that ozeki should be dropped to sekiwake immediately if they fail to reach 10 wins. Anybody here actually in favour of that?

Edited by Asashosakari

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"We should change the system and say they need at least 10 wins to keep their rank, They are somewhat pathetic" he added.

Tsuruta's saying that ozeki should be dropped to sekiwake immediately if they fail to reach 10 wins. Anybody here actually in favour of that?

I agree with the somewhat pathetic part. Would agree if he said failure to reach 10 wins would put you on kadoban for the next tournament but I don't think I agree with the automatic drop.

Edited by Torabayama

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Tsuruta's saying that ozeki should be dropped to sekiwake immediately if they fail to reach 10 wins. Anybody here actually in favour of that?

That's probably not particularly fair when you have so many ozeki plus a strong yokozuna. If, on average, an ozeki can only be expected to beat half of the other ozeki, that doesn't leave much leeway, particularly if you're an ozeki who happens to lose to other ozeki.

On the other hand, were this system in place before now there wouldn't be so many ozeki in the first place.

Edited by Kuroyama

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On the other hand, were this system in place before now there wouldn't be so many ozeki in the first place.

Yeah, they'd be clogging the sekiwake rank instead.

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<10 -> kadoban <8 -> Mk

That would certainly liven things up at the top. It would keep them on their toes. Imo it makes no sense that a sekiwake can fall down to maegashira in 1 basho while an ozeki has a comfortable cushion with the additional bonus that a single 10 win basho gets them back to ozeki status in the event that they should fall down.

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<8 -> Mk

I think you'll find that less than 8 is a mk for any sekitori

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<10 -> kadoban <8 -> Mk

Meaning what? <8 = immediate demotion? Twice <10 = demotion?

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<10 -> kadoban <8 -> Mk

That would certainly liven things up at the top. It would keep them on their toes. Imo it makes no sense that a sekiwake can fall down to maegashira in 1 basho while an ozeki has a comfortable cushion with the additional bonus that a single 10 win basho gets them back to ozeki status in the event that they should fall down.

But ozeki is a huge deal. It's a major rank, much more difficult to reach than sekiwake (you can get to the latter with eight wins at maegashira 1 with luck) and I don't have a problem with privileges coming with a prestigious rank.

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If they started demoting ozeki who have failed to reach 10 wins, then there would be no ozeki left within 2-3 bashos...

That might be a nice way to save some money though. Less ozeki, less money to pay :)

Lets extend the idea btw. How about demoting yokozuna who have failed to reach 12 wins?

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<8 -> Mk

I think you'll find that less than 8 is a mk for any sekitori

My bad for not expressing myself better.

I meant <8 is drop to sekiwake. Even if you allow re-promotion to Ozeki with 10 wins at sekiwake, it would put a lot more pressure on the ozeki and also make the rank itself much more meaningful.

It takes a significant achievement to become Ozeki. You have to be able not only to survive the sanyaku bouts, but to come out with 33 wins over 3 basho, preferably in rising order of number of wins. In other words, the rank of Ozeki really means something at that point. I don't think it is too much to ask that the people at that rank continue to prove they are worthy of that rank.

For example, looking at kotooshu, there is not a single point in time since his promotion in 2006 in which he fulfills the actual promotion criteria.

Edited by sumofan

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Lets extend the idea btw. How about demoting yokozuna who have failed to reach 12 wins?

Considering that yokozuna's cannot be demoted, this extension of the idea would have seen a forced intai for Hakuho this basho.

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Lets extend the idea btw. How about demoting yokozuna who have failed to reach 12 wins?

Considering that yokozuna's cannot be demoted, this extension of the idea would have seen a forced intai for Hakuho this basho.

Not demoting yokozuna is a mere convention, not a natural law. I wholly support Skotkotaikai's suggestion as a natural consequence of ideas such as Tsuruta's.

I meant <8 is drop to sekiwake.

I'm still curious about the second part of my question. If <10 = kadoban, does <10 while kadoban = demotion?

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I'm still curious about the second part of my question. If <10 = kadoban, does <10 while kadoban = demotion?

No, it does not. It means only that the ozeki is in peril of demotion if he goes MK in the next basho. Currently, an ozeki has no incentive to get more than 8 wins. It gives him a free ride for the next basho in case of illness, injury or a case of the doldrums. The 10 win kadoban rule makes him work harder for that free ride. He can be a perennial 8/9 win ozeki, but he would always be in danger of instant demotion.

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No, it does not. It means only that the ozeki is in peril of demotion if he goes MK in the next basho. Currently, an ozeki has no incentive to get more than 8 wins. It gives him a free ride for the next basho in case of illness, injury or a case of the doldrums. The 10 win kadoban rule makes him work harder for that free ride. He can be a perennial 8/9 win ozeki, but he would always be in danger of instant demotion.

That's your interpretation, but sumofan might be thinking of something different, because there's a certain way to interpret his statement that doesn't make any sense so I'm asking for clarification.

Although I might ask you the other part of that question, I guess - do you also think that <8 wins should be instant demotion without a kadoban stage?

Edited by Asashosakari

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Although I might ask you the other part of that question, I guess - do you also think that <8 wins should be instant demotion without a kadoban stage?

Absolutely not. The ozeki must meet some very heavy criteria to get his rank. He deserves some protection against a single bad basho. The problem now is that he has no incentive to re-earn that protection. Elimination of kadoban would create that sekiwake crunch that you have eloquently postulated.

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This whole discussion is only based on the fact that the current rank does not necessarily reflect the current strength of the Rikishi. That's so much unlike the ranking in many western sports disciplines. So you're discussing to close the gap between a prestige rank and a pure record-based rank.

In fact, the top sumo ranks are a bit like the ranks in management. You can go up the ladder step by step but almost never go down. Normally, you reach the next step with a single extraordinary achievement, a very successful project etc. . You are not expected to have this achievement on and on again. Often it is not even possible to do that, now you organize the projects only, instead of realizing them. You can keep the rank with mediocrity. You will go the ladder down only if you fail miserably, maybe you can stay in the company but you will likely not promoted again. But as a chief executive you can't go down, you either stay, retire, or are thrown out of the company (with the exception of Bill Gates).

Considering this, I don't have a problem with the system as it is. It is peculiar but it make perfectly sense.

In a sport with an accepted record-ranking (like tennis), there is a problem that the say No.10 player who was No.1 before is not the same as the No.10 player who has never been higher. The commentators normally acknowledge this by speaking of the "Ex-No.1". The solution in Sumo is more elegant to me.

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