Natsu 2012 Masters Results and World Championship Standings

[Ruziklao 34]

Oh well, I did not expect so long discussion after my question(s). I was following the discussion however and as a mere mortal compared to sumo gaming giants I'd like to offer my two cents too now.

Disclosure: Of course, I am interested in getting MG to SB also because of my consistently high position on the banzuke. But that is not a single reason why I like the game and I believe it would deserve being there. However...

MG has the unique aspect of predicting the result of bouts as well as guessing the guessing popularity of picks for other players.

But in my view the current for it suffers from the soft form of unconscious collusion. I think many players have observed that picking the highest maegashira bouts is the easiest way to the highest score via high bonuses. This could have been non-issue in the e-mail version, but now with full knowledge of the past picks the issue is self-reinforcing knowledge. (Personally, I do not always pick the last three bouts results, but I do take this into account in strategy.)

This cannot be fully cured by hiding picks now as many players do know that and just to be sure, they can still select the most picked bouts from the current era.

That is exactly what I had in mind when I was asking about quality of game. Yes, I do think it is partially flawed in the current web based form.

However, the web based form of the game can be saved in my view by changing the scoring. I have many ideas and if there is a general opinion / wish that MG should be improved, it would be perhaps the best to discuss it in the separate thread.

Here I will just give one idea: bonuses like now, except for bouts where N players have selected winner and 0 players have selected the loser. This would attract 0 bonus under current rules, but I would suggest giving non-zero bonus of M/N, where M is the maximum number of players selecting any maegashira at that day (M/N then rounded up to integer). This might motivate tries to select also bouts that few others would try to choose and reward success in doing so, taking into account also herding to some bouts.

Anyway, if the MG is improved and a few more players not only try it, but actually play it regularly, I think it surely deserves its place under sun. And on SB.

Automatically computed banzuke is a good thing, IMHO. CG has one and it works perfectly. Setting of automatic banzuke for MG is slightly too dynamic for my taste (latest result accounting for 40% of new points, old points multiplied by 60%), 25%-75% would be more stable and yet dynamic enough, but it is not a particular issue for me.

And also - thanks to Randomitsuki and game admins for all the hard work in the background. Not only behind MG, SB or anything specific... just sincere thanks!

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

Does anyone seriously believe TTT won't make the SB?? It's an instant classic, as Rando obviously sees. If there are questions about whether it should be included on the SB, why not also throw that open to a poll as well?? At least that would serve consistency - we are after all deciding the fate of Maegashira Game in that way.

Either that or just let Rando choose. Anything that minimizes his workload, basically.

[Fujisan 537]

Does anyone seriously believe TTT won't make the SB?? It's an instant classic,

Not sure I would go that far but even if its the greatest sumo game ever,it shouldn't be getting the jump on games that have been waiting for years, to be given the same chance TTT is given after 1 basho.....

Edited May 26, 2012 by Fujisan

[Asashosakari 20,297]

Not sure I would go that far but even if its the greatest sumo game ever,it shouldn't be getting the jump on games that have been waiting for years, to be given the same chance TTT is given after 1 basho.....

Who said the SB is about "giving games a chance"? That's a complete inversion of how the SB has always worked.

As others have said, even after just one test basho and one real basho, TTT has already done more to prove its qualifications for SB inclusion than all other games that are not on the SB ever did. (That notwithstanding, I'm not unhappy to see its introduction delayed for at least one basho.)

Edited May 26, 2012 by Asashosakari

[Flohru 178]

Not sure I would go that far but even if its the greatest sumo game ever,it shouldn't be getting the jump on games that have been waiting for years, to be given the same chance TTT is given after 1 basho.....

Who said the SB is about "giving games a chance"? That's a complete inversion of how the SB has always worked.

Just wanted to add that I don't think there are any "games that have been waiting for years" to be included in SB - rather there seem to be some players who would like to force the issue.

And yes, despite the reservation of its founder I also can't see TTT breaking apart. We haven't had a new game starting with high player numbers like that for what feels like decades which simply can't be a mere coincidence (also look at the stat numbers of the thread of the trial basho of TTT and at how many people were involved in the discussions surrounding it)...

[Fujisan 537]

Just wanted to add that I don't think there are any "games that have been waiting for years" to be included in SB - rather there seem to be some players who would like to force the issue.

To throw another name into the mix,what about Kumi?

Theres a game that was mentioned and considered by Randomitsuki when it had enough players to qualify (Several years ago) but now the support has dropped,it cant be considered..

Now you might say its lack of support now proves it was right not to include it but I say not being part of SB has negatively affected the numbers since then...

Shame it didn't get the same chances TTT gets...

(

And yes, despite the reservation of its founder I also can't see TTT breaking apart. We haven't had a new game starting with high player numbers like that for what feels like decades which simply can't be a mere coincidence (also look at the stat numbers of the thread of the trial basho of TTT and at how many people were involved in the discussions surrounding it)...

Well no I agree with you,how can it fail now its part of the SB?

It cant and neither would Maegashira game,Kumi,makushita game or any ther game with such a boost..

[Asashosakari 20,297]

To throw another name into the mix,what about Kumi?

Theres a game that was mentioned and considered by Randomitsuki when it had enough players to qualify (Several years ago) but now the support has dropped,it cant be considered..

When was Kumi ever anywhere close to the established SB games in participation? Scrolling through the results the game topped out at around 70 active players - at a time when all the "big" games were still regularly drawing 120+. By the time those other games had declined towards 100, Kumi had also dropped to around 50. And now we're talking about 80 vs 40 or so.

[Fujisan 537]

When was Kumi ever anywhere close to the established SB games in participation? Scrolling through the results the game topped out at around 70 active players - at a time when all the "big" games were still regularly drawing 120+. By the time those other games had declined towards 100, Kumi had also dropped to around 50. And now we're talking about 80 vs 40 or so.

Ask Jeurgan...(Randomitsuki)

I still remember him saying he was considering Kumi but he wanted more daily games..

Fact is I still say Kumi and other games suffer for not being part of the SB...

Its like the old adage abot work experience isn't it..

"You cant get the work without the experience and you cant get the experience without the work."

"You cant get the support without the Super banzuke and you cant join the super banzuke without the support."

Edited May 26, 2012 by Fujisan

[ronnie 221]

Is it just coincidence Fujisan, that you're promoting games that you seem to do well in? Just recently you were suggesting to the folks at ST that Banzai was a game we should all take up. Strange that you left Yoso out of the promo.

Looking for instant SB points?

[Fujisan 537]

Is it just coincidence Fujisan, that you're promoting games that you seem to do well in? Just recently you were suggesting to the folks at ST that Banzai was a game we should all take up. Strange that you left Yoso out of the promo.

Looking for instant SB points?

Cant help it if I'm good at so many games...;-)

No it is a coincidence,I haven't enjoyed success in Kumi for years,as my acceptance speech for this bashos kumi yusho should tell you..

As for Banzai I am more concerned about the long term survival of the game than promoting it for SB,I know it is a long way from achieving that but I would seriously reccomend it to play and would welcome a bit more competition because it is struggling to reach 30 players right now..

Its a bit disheartening to see Banzai struggling when its such a great game..

[Flohru 178]

(

And yes, despite the reservation of its founder I also can't see TTT breaking apart. We haven't had a new game starting with high player numbers like that for what feels like decades which simply can't be a mere coincidence (also look at the stat numbers of the thread of the trial basho of TTT and at how many people were involved in the discussions surrounding it)...

Well no I agree with you,how can it fail now its part of the SB?

It cant and neither would Maegashira game,Kumi,makushita game or any ther game with such a boost..

But my point is that it would succeed even without being part of the SB. And I heartily disagree with your argument that inclusion in SB should be used to allow games to survive the recent decrease of participants. Firstly I think it would be a bad thing to have players playing games simply because of SB points and secondly I really believe you are exaggerating the influence of SB on the gaming community (probably because it is very important to you).

I guess most people take the SB of what it is: a nice extra that we are all happy about but that won't influence our lives or gaming habits. Currently there are 207 players ranked on SB - while I don't have the numbers I would guess that only a small minority of them actually plays all SB games. If you want to have further proof take a look at the Maegashira Game voting thread. Only 18 people even voted so far which kind of shows that most people simply don't really care.

[Ruziklao 34]

If you want to have further proof take a look at the Maegashira Game voting thread. Only 18 people even voted so far which kind of shows that most people simply don't really care.

Actually, there is also possibility some people even do not realize such voting thread exists. Only this your reference made me to look for the thread. And it's me, the one who asked about possibility of MG in SB, actively reading this thread, etc. Consider those who do not go here frequently between basho, etc. The direct link to the poll could help too: http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=29790

[Fujisan 537]

But my point is that it would succeed even without being part of the SB.

Maybe but we wont know now...

And I heartily disagree with your argument that inclusion in SB should be used to allow games to survive the recent decrease of participants.

Me too since thats not what I said...

I'm saying that in Kumi's case "it would have done" not "it should have done.."

Firstly I think it would be a bad thing to have players playing games simply because of SB points and secondly I really believe you are exaggerating the influence of SB on the gaming community (probably because it is very important to you).

Important? No but it is all part of the fun that adds spice to the games and sumo in general for me...

I say sumo in general because with no regular sumo coverage on English tv I would have lost interest a long time ago but for these forums and the sumo games..

I guess most people take the SB of what it is: a nice extra that we are all happy about but that won't influence our lives or gaming habits. Currently there are 207 players ranked on SB - while I don't have the numbers I would guess that only a small minority of them actually plays all SB games.

Actually you are probably right...

I wonder how many play all the SB games and maegashira game and/or Kumi?

Even less...

After all when will you have time to play games not on the SB? I rest my case...